Finally played XII Stag for PS2 and it rocks!

[Dave_K.]

I just want to tell people who have never played this before, to not listen to some of the crap people have been throwing around about XII Stag, Trizeal or Triangle Service in general. Play it and decide for yourself.

I bought XII Stag over xmas, but hadn't been able to play it since the Korean version is not compatible with Swapmagic or HDLoader. But tonight I was finally able to give it a try on a 2nd hand PS2 I bought with a modchip. I wasn't expecting much after reading all the trash talk on this board....but was pleasently surprised when after a couple rounds, I found myself really liking this game!!

Ok, maybe its the fact that I play my PS2 inside a real arcade cab using real sanwa sticks/buttons....but I actually like the wiggle mechanic for extra points. Its also fun going point blank on a boss or enemy to quickly take out portions using this play mechanic. The gameplay is definately old school (I like it) and there are some manic moments with to many enemys/fire on the screen all at once. So I really don't understand what all the hating was about. Maybe the game sucks playing on a gamepad? The first level of XII Stag is pretty slow, so thats not a good representation of the real game (talking about the XII Stag Limited free download). I wish I had seen some replays of the other levels, as that would have turned me around a long time ago.

Anyway, now that I hear XII Stag is going to be included as a mini-game inside Trizeal, I can't wait to play this baby at high res VGA (31khz) on my arcade monitor! I'm also looking forward to using the XII Stag ship in the normal game mode.

[Neon]

You liked chaos field dave, our tastes are too different

[Ghegs]

Aye, the game indeed opens up in a totally new way when played with an arcade stick. It's a bit like what Saurian once said about Psyvariar 2 - you need to play it with a stick, the Roll button doesn't give the full effect. Same thing with RSA, though it makes the feat easier, it also takes some fun out of it.

Don't forget the high-score thread!

What little I played of XII Stag Limited it seemed to be the fourth stage in the real game. I only played it for less than a minute (due to the 10 fps I was getting) though.

[Skyline]

Bottom line is, you're not gonna like XIISTAG if you're not willing to embrace the scoring system. If you do, it's quite fun.

For me, one of the best parts about this game is bombing just below the more "manic" bosses (stage 3 for example), so that while the boss dosen't recieve any damage, I get a shitload of 1000-point bonuses for nullified bullets. And in some cases, an extra bomb is awarded...so I can do it again.

Playing with RSA on isn't that bad, although I do feel like I'm cheating when I'm holding down the RSA button and stick-wiggling at the same time. ZOMG S00PER RSA

[sffan]

I've always been surprised at the crap-talk as well, and have tried feebly to defend the game on occasion. I got XII Stag when it came out and it's still one of my favorites. I use the PS2 analog control, a regular tated TV, RSA off, and I still love it.

This reminds me: I need to put my high score on the new list.

[CMoon]

I just want to tell people who have never played this before, to not listen to some of the crap people have been throwing around about XII Stag, Trizeal or Triangle Service in general.

Well clearly I just have a personal vendetta against the game

I think the 'crap' people like myself have been giving the game isn't because it is wretched and unplayable, but rather that it is sub-par. Neon for instance gave Gun Frontier crap for being subpar but my argument was that Gun Frontier is a unique and still highly playable and fun shmup. XII Stag is boring to look at, its level design is boring, its music is boring. Really, there is only one interesting thing, and that's to spin and get points.

Oh well, it is all subjective when it comes down to it...

[system11]

I think XII-Stag is ok actually, and I don't even try to play the scoring mechanic. Raiden did the whole military ships type thing better, but I've played Raiden a million times, I'm more than happy to have an enjoyable blast with something else instead.

[sffan]

XII Stag is boring to look at, its level design is boring, its music is boring. Really, there is only one interesting thing, and that's to spin and get points.

Oh well, it is all subjective when it comes down to it...

The only thing boring about it IMO is the between-level "result" screens. Otherwise I like the graphics and the music is great. You're right about it being subjective, obviously.

[TalkingOctopus]

I think Stag XII is alright, but some of the levels are really uninspired an boring. I think the first few levels and the very last level are bad. The other levels are a blast -- I really like one of them, but forgot its number. Also, the whole wiggling joystick thing is rather tiring. It also kind of destroyed my joy (a happ p360). It squaks and squeeks now after playing the game...very annoying. I'll have to take it apart sometime and perform cpr.

[Dave_K.]

LOL, since the 360's are supposed to be silent, I can see the frustration if they are now squeaking. I doubt its damaged though as it optical based. I was always scared my sanwa's were more fragile than my happ sticks. But I've been playing Psyvariar2 on it for awhile with no noticable affect.

[Rob]

Aye, the game indeed opens up in a totally new way when played with an arcade stick. It's a bit like what Saurian once said about Psyvariar 2 - you need to play it with a stick, the Roll button doesn't give the full effect.

The "must play with stick" argument is a copout. I don't play any shooter with a stick. The game is just funk to anyone who thinks so. I played Psyvariar 2 without the roll button and perfectly enjoyed that game. Rapidly moving the d-pad back and forth works the same way. Obviously if you use the auto- button in either game it takes away the style of play they intended, but I tried both and it makes no difference for XII Stag. Heavy repetition in enemies, their attacks and background graphics (hey, much like the level 1 Trizeal video!).

What does this scoring system have on any modern shooter? I'm sure even Night Raid has its devoted fans, and that game was also well short of the mark. Play it for a few more hours? I started with "hey, this isn't so bad!" too.

[BulletMagnet]

It's a bit like what Saurian once said about Psyvariar 2 - you need to play it with a stick, the Roll button doesn't give the full effect.

Did Psyvariar 2 even have a roll button? I don't think the DC version did, at least...though apparently the console releases of the original Psyvariar had one.

[Dave_K.]

It's a bit like what Saurian once said about Psyvariar 2 - you need to play it with a stick, the Roll button doesn't give the full effect.

Did Psyvariar 2 even have a roll button? I don't think the DC version did, at least...though apparently the console releases of the original Psyvariar had one.

DC version does not have a roll button.

To Rob's comments: thats good to know some people can enjoy it with a pad. I know I certainly cannot play any shooter to any great skill with a pad. Thats not to say someone can't master it with a pad, again just that it may be a turn-off for some people. As to the repetious nature of enemies, attacks, and backgrounds in XII Stag, I don't see how this is any different than any other old school shooters. Maybe people are expecting more now-a-days, but I didn't expected this to be a second coming like some cave games. We'll see how it goes after I into it a little more.

[Rob]

I don't see how this is any different than any other old school shooters.

Even old school shooters have more variety!

[Dave_K.]

I don't see how this is any different than any other old school shooters.

Even old school shooters have more variety!

Thats subjective, but point taken.

[Ghegs]

Did Psyvariar 2 even have a roll button? I don't think the DC version did, at least...though apparently the console releases of the original Psyvariar had one.

PS2 version has it, dunno about XBox.

Rob: I didn't say the game(s) couldn't be enjoyed with a pad. I'm saying the experience is slightly different (and in my opinion, better) when played with a joystick. Just like you can play racing games with a pad and have perfectly good fun, but it undeniably feels different to play with a wheel.

I fail to see how you think playing with Rapid Side Attack doesn't make a difference. Unless you're wiggling the joystick insanely fast the ship moves back and forth horizontally a bit, making it easier to ram into enemies by accident. No such problems with RSA, and it even gives the stronger side-attack constantly.

[oxtsu]

What does this scoring system have on any modern shooter? I'm sure even Night Raid has its devoted fans, and that game was also well short of the mark. Play it for a few more hours? I started with "hey, this isn't so bad!" too.

How about Zero Gunner 2 and anything Takumi.

Really I think the scoring mechanic and system of XII Stag is one of the most interesting and enjoyable of modern times.

[Rob]

How about Zero Gunner 2 and anything Takumi.

I said what does it have on any modern shooter, not what shooters you think it has something on with no explanation. Example:

Takumi's scoring systems: intuitive. XII Stag's unintuitive. What's the point of using the mosquito in Mars Matrix? Offense and defense. It seems like I've posted this a half dozen times before, but one more time: in these games you'd use the "gimmick" constantly anyways. In Stag I could go through 95% of the game without using the side shot. It's only necessary if scoring matters to you. There is no deep rooted purpose in using it and there are no incentives (extra lives, power-ups, etc.). What is necessary first, before using the gimmick in either game? Mars Matrix - enemies must be shooting bullets. Done. XII Stag - enemies must be alongside the ship. Counterintuitively, this is something you'd have to go out of the way for. Enjoyable as it may be to you, I think this is not quality game design.

To get deeper into the scoring mechanics would be really boring, but can you even begin to argue that XII Stag is either as elaborately thought out or as original as Mars Matrix or the Giga Wings? Takumi came up with a fresh concept (bullet manipulation). Triangle Service did not. All of its ideas are stripped from other games, like Psyvariar. I felt like it didn't have its own identity.

As for Zero Gunner 2, it's one of the few modern shooters without a modern scoring system, so using it as an example is kind of funny. XII Stag's scoring system has something on a game without a real scoring system. Not that I wouldn't play ZG2 for score long before touching XII Stag again.

[Ghegs]

Intuity? Heh. Like the scoring mechanics in for example Ikaruga, Psyvariar or DOJ are intuitive one bit. Of course it's a gimmick and the player can, like with the aforementioned games, completely ignore it if he so wishes. It's just something extra to learn to if he wants to score well. The side-attack is actually more powerful than the main shot, so it does make some sense to use it at certain points. And really, the enemy placement is planned with the side-attack in mind, enemies come from the sides and behind much more often than in "normal" shmups and many times even enemies coming from the front come in two rows so it's possible to just place your ship between them and wiggle away.

[Rob]

Intuity? Heh. Like the scoring mechanics in for example Ikaruga, Psyvariar or DOJ are intuitive one bit.

You're right, and enemy chaining is garbage. Psyvariar's scoring system is more thoroughly integrated into the game (powering up/invincibility).

[rib]

XII stag was/is the first shmup i played and hated and still hate.
first impression: wow nice graphics.
second impression: well a bit short.
third impression: is this really the only way to use this "weapon"
fourth impression: my fingers hurts the game is hell boring, why im doing this..

[Ghegs]

Intuity? Heh. Like the scoring mechanics in for example Ikaruga, Psyvariar or DOJ are intuitive one bit.

You're right, and enemy chaining is garbage. Psyvariar's scoring system is more thoroughly integrated into the game (powering up/invincibility).

This we can agree on. Generally I do enjoy intuitive scoring systems more, but XII Stag's is far less anal than Ikaruga's or DOJ's to the point it feels comfortable.

[oxtsu]

How about Zero Gunner 2 and anything Takumi.

I said what does it have on any modern shooter, not what shooters you think it has something on with no explanation.

For the record, I'm not going to engage in much discourse, though I appreciate your ideas on the matter. A homogenized and quick explanation: I mentioned ZG2 and Takumi mainly because I see how much you fancy them and I feel the merits are similar when looking at multi-perspectives. Design is solid for all. It's appeal might be for a different taste or wider audience, it's the distinction. And yes, there are poorly realized, sloppy shooting games...such as Chaos Field of recent. It's not a case of defending the pet monkey here with XII Stag. Parting words... tame the lion with finesse (arcade - stick), not the cattle prod (RSA - pad).