Dodonpachi DOJ vs. Ketsui? Help!

[dboeren]

I'm planning to put together a PCB order sometime coming up, and I'd like to get one of these two Cave games. Trouble is, I haven't played either one and they aren't emulated either.

I would appreciate if anyone who has played them can offer their opinions on which game is better to get. I already have Dodonpachi, Esprade, and Guwange and love them all. I tend to play more for survival than for massive score chains, and prefer games where you aren't forced into a single memorized path as the only way to live. I am also a Psikyo fan (Strikers 1945 II, Dragon Blaze, and soon to get Gunbird 2).

Other titles I'm considering for purchase as part of this order:
Dangun Feveron, Battle Bakraid, and Cyvern

Thanks for any help you can give!

[BulletMagnet]

Well, if nothing else you might want to get Ketsui since it's not available anywhere else: if you have/get an import-playing PS2 you can get DOJ on that for a ways cheaper than the PCB price. Otherwise I can't say much from personal experience, since I haven't played Ketsui and can't really compare it to DOJ.

[captain ahar]

off topic i know. if you get Cyvern, could you tell me all about it so i can pretend that i have actually played it?

note: i refuse to emulate anything i know i want. that is my moral "whatever."

[Venom]

I like Ketsui far more that DOJ. DOJ, seems so cold, sterile and the chain routes are a pain. Ketsui though very difficult later on is more free in it's score system. The music is similar between them, graphics in Ketsui are better. I find the bullet patterns more innovative in Ketsui, also there are many large and well designed enemies in it.

As for the rest of your order, Dangun is a great game, I never really played the others.

[Ord]

Try DOJ (if you can) on the PS2 first. Personally i prefer Ketsui by quite a large margin. Venom kind of hit it on the nail, as i too think DOJ is a little...cold. Whatever you decide, that sounds like a killer pcb shopping list. I have the Dangun board and it's just bloody great. I've only played Cyvern and Bakraid on Mame and those are two board that i'll cernainly be getting in the future. Great games.

[freddiebamboo]

DOJ is very similar to DDP, so I'd have to say Ketsui as well, although I haven't played it yet.

Anyone know if it's getting a MAME or console port?

[Wanderer]

As stated in this thread, Ketsui's scoring system is more simplistic and intuitive. No memorizing chains, bee locations, etc. Just pick up the controller, shoot, dodge, and have fun.

Go with Ketsui and pick up DOJ on PS2.

[GaijinPunch]

Ketsui makes me want to pull my pants down. I think it's an all around better game than DOJ in all aspects.... music, scoring, etc. etc.

[system11]

Cyvern is significantly cheaper than either of the two Cave games, and is actually a great shooter - pretty tough too. It's pretty high on the list of "PCBs I wish I hadn't sold".

[Rummy Bunnz]

I tend to play more for survival than for massive score chains, and prefer games where you aren't forced into a single memorized path as the only way to live.

Yeah, you really don't want DOJ then. That game likes to hurt people.

As most of these folks have said, Ketsui is the better game. Probably in my top 3 shooters, despite having somewhat dull art and graphics. The whole helicopter/military thing doesn't do much for me. But everything else about the game is tops, especially the scoring system, which is very "free" as Venom said. Buy it!

I'd suggest getting Dangun as the second PCB. I probably wouldn't buy 2 Cave games at the same time myself, but DF is pretty odd and feels really different from their other shooters. So Ketsui + Feveron ain't a bad combo. I just bought the DF PCB myself and I'm in love with it, even though I suck terribly at it for whatever reason.

[Darkcomet72]

Depends... If anything, go for both. Ketsui has much, much better boss battles(Cave's best bosses, in my opinion) and has simpler gameplay, however, the level design is very monotous: you will be using the same strategy to get through most parts of the game(mostly bullet leading: so many bullets are headed toward the player), while DDPDOJ is very demanding on the player, but has amazing level design for those looking for a game to truly be dedicated to.

Bah... Get both.

[llaoyllakcuf]

I also prefer KE-TSU-I over DAI-OU-JOU.

The difficulty level, scoring system, and music are more enjoyable to me.

However, I'd take Battle Bakraid over both of them first..

I already have Dodonpachi, Esprade, and Guwange

That'd be all the Cave PCBs I would ever need.

(and maybe Mushihime, if it never gets ported)

[Kiel]

Ketsui makes me want to pull my pants down.

And I thought I was the only one!

Ketsui was the first PCB I ever got. Every one has pretty much said all that needs to be said. Its the cave game to own.

[raiden]

I can´t recommend Battle Bakraid. It´s the only PCB I sold again. Although the first few weeks it was very much fun, at some point I just hit a wall. Playing for survival is pretty easy, while playing for score is incredibly non-intuitive, even more than Battle Garegga. The world record player lets himself die 61 times to get extra bombs, then bombs all the time to get high multipliers and extra lives every 2mio. points. Now, don´t think this would be easy. Hitting the right spots to bomb is quite a task to find out if you can´t watch an experienced player doing it (haven´t seen any Bakraid video ever), it´s just that this process requires pure experimentation without any serious part of "trying to play good" while you are starting out. My experience was that scores would be random as long as I didn´t know exactly what to do when, and I was just supposed to play it again and again, but without much feedback on what is right and what isn´t.
Compared to Battle Garegga, Bakraid has colorful bullets that are easy to discern from the background, so dodging should be easy, right? Not quite, as they sometimes become invisible when there are many of them on screen, but you can still be hit by them. As the previous board member ShaperMC pointed out, that´s not too much of a problem if you learn the patterns, but it´s also not exactly an improvement over Garegga´s contrast problems. In terms of style, Bakraid takes nothing but a backseat to Garegga. Technically, it´s all good, but the stages are such a cliché effort. Recently, there was talk about a "vanilla" kind of design in the Gigawing thread... well, imho Bakraid is the game that defines "vanilla".
If you´re playing for survival mainly, I´m wondering why you are choosing all those modern games with a score focus, though. Shouldn´t the likes of old Toaplan or Psikyo games fit better to your wishes?

[Ghegs]

Ketsui though very difficult later on is more free in it's score system.

As stated in this thread, Ketsui's scoring system is more simplistic and intuitive. No memorizing chains, bee locations, etc. Just pick up the controller, shoot, dodge, and have fun.

Ketsui makes me want to pull my pants down.

The difficulty level, scoring system, and music are more enjoyable to me.

All this talk about Ketsui's greatness just confirms what I've believed for quite some time: eventually I will break down, sell plenty of stuff and buy a Supergun and Ketsui. I'm trying to resist, but I know it's futile in the long run. At least hopefully the PCB's prize will go down while I cling to my existing games.

[dboeren]

Thanks for all your great feedback! Ketsui is definately going on my must-buy list then. Unfortunately, the price seems to have gone up. A week ago it was $365 at coinopexpress, now they list it as $435. I will probably have to wait a while longer or else find another dealer with a better price. If anyone knows a good place to try, let me know. I've already check a couple of European places and excellentcom.

Of course I will almost certainly get both of them eventually...

[Kiel]

Give excellentcom.net a try.

[Neon]

Damn. DOJ is my favourite shooter and now everyone who's played both loves ketsui. Now I will have to buy a supergun

Darn thee all to heck.

[dboeren]

Go straight to the JAMMA cabinet, superguns are just a halfway house.

Buy yourself a nice 29" imported sit-down cabinet and you will wonder how you ever used to live without it.

[Darkcomet72]

I tend to play more for survival than for massive score chains, and prefer games where you aren't forced into a single memorized path as the only way to live.

Woah, I completely missed that!

In this case, get Ketsui. DDPDOJ will tear anyone who isn't dedicated to that game to shreds.

I seem to like DOJ's music a bit more, although Ketsui has better boss battle music, and if you're good enough to get to stage 5, you will hear Namiki's greatest stage 5 music ever.

[Kiel]

and if you're good enough to get to stage 5, you will hear Namiki's greatest stage 5 music ever.

A lot of people think this but I think stage 4 is the best track of the game. I have the OST in my car and it get plenty of play.

[Stormowl]

it's good to see all the ketsui love, and i'll agree with everyone here. i'm still convinced everyone threw it aside when it came out simply because Joker Jun was not listed in the credits.

[Darkcomet72]

it's good to see all the ketsui love, and i'll agree with everyone here. i'm still convinced everyone threw it aside when it came out simply because Joker Jun was not listed in the credits.

Bah. I like the new artist much better. I'll probably get chopped for saying that...

[japtor]

it's good to see all the ketsui love, and i'll agree with everyone here. i'm still convinced everyone threw it aside when it came out simply because Joker Jun was not listed in the credits.

nah, i think its more cause this guy is an idiot.

i like ketsuis artwork, but not a big fan of the character art. progear is my favorite in terms of cave character art, nice endings too (they aint no kinky ass endings of gunbird 2 though, now thats art).

forgot to re: doj vs ketsui.
uh i dont know, ive only played doj once, but have ketsui. so uh yeah it rocks for reasons already mentioned. course i have a doj pcb coming eventually so i can compare then. i remember a while back someone comparing ketsui to dangun in terms of speed, not sure how doj compares in this regard.

[Rummy Bunnz]

Fuck insert credit.

I lost count of how many people have said "But doesn't that game suck??" after I told them I own Ketsui. Over a dozen by now, at least. And everytime I ask where they heard that they point to the IC writeup. Hell, I remember writing off the game after reading it and seeing the screenshots. It wasn't until I saw some good video of the game that I realized the "DDP-lite" tag was waaaay off the mark.

"The only significant difference between this and the Dodonpachi system is that in Ketsui, you have two companion pods that are always at your left and right."

UGGGGH.

[Brian]

I just got Ketui last night and played it for the first time. I only played it for about 30 minutes before going to bed. But, I have to say, it is refreshingly fun and simple to play. I love Cave, but the scoring system can get too complex for its own good. In Ketsui, the box scoring system is easy to understand. And, it really makes no difference if you do the box thing. You can simply play the game as a straight ahead shooter. Even though I only just got it and barely played, I already like it better than DDP:DOJ. DDP:DOJ never excited me, just more of the same.

[99pence]

Just been checking out Ketsui screenshots again on that World Of Arcades site. That site has the best game screenshots on the net. Old school.


Do these games have the old copyright warning at the start? There wasn't a world release for these Cave games was there.

[Anarchos]

Mesa wanta playyyy! Buying the PCB is just not reality for a student like me, but I still want to play it! Hm, when is it gonna show up on MAME? No rumours I wanna hear?

[Kiel]

Do these games have the old copyright warning at the start? There wasn't a world release for these Cave games was there.

Yup, still has it.

[Tomtom]

I've only played Ketsui once, and I've barely played DDPDOJ more than that, so I guess I can't really say, but Ketsui is quite rad. I'm actually listening to the soundtrack right now. The stage 5 music reminds me of DDPDOJ's stage 1 music. Stage 4, however, rocks the house. Love the guitars, I've never really heard Namiki experiment with hard rock style other than this tune (and I guess a bit in Batrider's boss themes).