Batsugun S-Tribute

[Steven]

I just realized that this may have a higher percentage of increase in lag than Cotton/Guardian Force. We don't have numbers for Saturn, but we do have Buffi's probably 2 frames for PCB, so that means that this has ~250% more lag than the PCB while Cotton and Guardian Force are at only somewhere around 140%~150% after the patch. Is that really okay? Yes, the actual number of frames is lower on Batsugun, and it is perfectly playable, but is having that much more lag than the real thing actually good emulation?

[Ms. Tea]

This is a port of the Saturn version of Batsugun. How many frames was that? I'm guessing more than the PCB based on this port.

Obviously porting the Saturn version, not the arcade version, is a weird issue on its own. I'd love it if CC would start porting actual Saturn games instead of Saturn ports of arcade games.

[Jonpachi]

Again, it’s all about just having a ready-made product with all the front end already built. They just need to get it running reasonably well and then can sell an emulator and a rom as a retail package with just a tiny crew.

[cfx]

I'd love it if CC would start porting actual Saturn games instead of Saturn ports of arcade games.

They've actually done this. The Suchie Pai mahjong collection on Switch is all Saturn ports, which are a combination of Saturn versions of arcade games, but with many enhancements over the arcade originals, and one completely Saturn original game.

Why is this not on PS4? Presumably it didn't meet Sony's content rules, or City Connection didn't try. Considering everything that was in the Saturn versions that had the old 18 rating is censored on Switch, I really don't know of anything that Sony would have not allowed.

[DenimDemon]

I can do all sort of manoeuvres and micro adjustments fine on switch. I’m happy how this turned out.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Why is this not on PS4? Presumably it didn't meet Sony's content rules, or City Connection didn't try. Considering everything that was in the Saturn versions that had the old 18 rating is censored on Switch, I really don't know of anything that Sony would have not allowed.

The only reasons at this point the Japanese rereleases of 2d classics are getting PS4 versions is either, the will to optimize performance as much as possible, or Western markets. City Connection is not M2 as we all know, so something like Suchie Pai, which can only be for Japan for obvious reasons, will be Switch-only.

[Jonpachi]

Electric Underground review is up, and he's claiming 6 frames on Switch. Sounds on the edge of playable, but Batsugun Special is pretty forgiving so that's perhaps why we're hearing so many positive playtesting reports.

I got used to it on the Astro City Mini V, and that was probably 8+ frames, so I don't view a 6 frame test result as a death sentence for the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3rvjHBB8yY&t=902s

[Sima Tuna]

6 frames for a port of a saturn game is on the border of acceptable imo. Assuming it has practice features and other niceties like button mapping, I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to purchase. 6 frames of input delay on Switch is sadly quite common, thanks to the 1 frame of additional switch lag.

[charlie chong]

sometimes i wish m2 would just do simple ports like this and hamsters as we would get a lot more good ports rather than widgets and statistics. i just wanna change my controls,put some credits in and press start and play

And you too Charlie, you old rascal! I don't know how old you are but u are one of my several shumps dads ok

i was haktually bedbound and pretty close to death last year due to cushings disease which was diagnosed at such a large stage i was pretty near a heart attack/stroke because i kept swelling up to 20 stone i would seriously keep losing 5 stone and then putting it back on again and again.
the excess cortisol (40 x that of a normal human.remember this is a stress hormone so it fucks you up)gives you osteoporosis so before i got diagnosed with it i managed to break both my feet,2 ribs and fractured my spine.
but i had the tumor on my brain/pituituary gland removed last summer and immediately went into cortisol withdrawl which was a living hell for 5 months of nausea and extreme bone pains. then one day i felt better and started getting up and about. soon after i realised how many shooties i missed as the last game i bought for ps4 was omega fighter.my wallet hurts but now i got a ps4 loaded wth tons of bangers

[DenimDemon]

Holy shit Bil. Glad you’re good now.
All the best [ROCKET]
45 over here so every new release feels great to me ( ok not really). Im just happy we’re getting iconic pew pew re releases on current hardware after the “shmups are dead” period. It’s amazing how many stuffs gets released nowadays.
Meanwhile I’ve tried the new arrange soundtrack + special version = FUN.

[charlie chong]

43 here and there's never been a better time to be a shootie fiend thanks to hamster and m2 got my rgh 360 as well loaded with teh romz and pretty much every good shooter/arcade game from disc to xbla on it. add the analogue pocket and dock with all it's cool cores and i've retired all my other consoles to storage. best thing about massive modern screens is no tating crts anymore
https://imgur.com/avfCwZg

[BIL]

cushings disease

Oof, Christ. My aunt had that, similar treatment path to yours. 3; Good going bud. ;-;7

[arturo]

50 (this Friday) here… I grew up with Space Invaders (I still love it) and many more of the classics from that era. Nowadays I almost only play shmups (from classics to bullet hells).

That said, I’m loving Batsugun. I guess I’m not too sensitive to the input lag, and as I didn’t have the chance to play it back in the day, I’m having a blast

[Jonpachi]

Got my PS4 copy yesterday, and am diving in. So far, it feels excellent, and I question that "6 frames of lag" measure from EU, as it feels snappy and precise at a near-M2 level. I was able to get to loop 2.4 on Special on my first few tries, and never had a moment where I questioned my inputs or timing. Dunno, but I'd like to see it re-tested. If it IS 6, so be it, but I'm not feeling like there's anything going on here that could be seen as a detriment to gameplay. I have the Astro City Mini V, and had to walk away from trying to play that version as it was not worth the struggle against the lag, but I get none of that here. The output options also look damn great, and having this running in HD on a crisp, modern gaming monitor leaves me missing nothing from the old Saturn version. For $30 USD, this seems like a fantastic option.

That said, it's been many years since I've played my Saturn copy, as it's in a box in a storage shed, and I'd love some help on a few questions:

- Are there any hidden 1-ups?

- Do you get a 1-up on each loop in Special? I seemed to get one for beating the boss of Stage 5, but I don't remember if it does that every time.

- What's the secret with that plane taking off in Stage 1 and the nearby control tower? I remember there being some score bonus for shooting it at the right time (after take-off maybe?). I got a trophy for doing something there, but I have no idea exactly what. The tower too sometimes has a pink pig in it, and I assume that's tied to the plane too?

- Why do I glow sometimes, with a trail that follows my ship? I think that's tied to touching a pink pig, but I'm not certain.

- In Special, do you always get a "free" hit? Occasionally it seems like I die in one shot, but maybe I'm just missing the little "ping" sound when I take a hit.

[Some-Mist]

- What's the secret with that plane taking off in Stage 1 and the nearby control tower? I remember there being some score bonus for shooting it at the right time (after take-off maybe?). I got a trophy for doing something there, but I have no idea exactly what. The tower too sometimes has a pink pig in it, and I assume that's tied to the plane too?

- Why do I glow sometimes, with a trail that follows my ship? I think that's tied to touching a pink pig, but I'm not certain.

- In Special, do you always get a "free" hit? Occasionally it seems like I die in one shot, but maybe I'm just missing the little "ping" sound when I take a hit.

only know a couple of these

if you destroy the plane before it leaves the landing strip you get something like 50k+ points

every time you level up your ship will produce the trailing glow, that means you have the free hit. once you get hit by a bullet the trail will disappear until the next time you level up

I also agree about the lag, but I've noticed that I'm also not as sensitive to it as other people and I think it's just because I've been able to adjust as needed over the years. this port felt pretty tight to me too

[Marc]

Absolutely solid port that feels brilliant, whatever sins they've committed previously, this is solid. And that remixed soundtrack is the fucking bomb. Will the M2 port be better? Yeah. 40 quids worth of better? Not to me, no.

[Rastan78]

Will the M2 port be better? Yeah. 40 quids worth of better? Not to me, no.

Batsugun S-Tribute is 29.99 USD. Play-Asia has ZeroFire up for pre-order at 51.99 USD which is for 2 games. You could argue M2 is offering a better value in terms of both quality and content. The real question is if/when a Batsugun M2 ever does actually appear and what it's bundled with.

[Steven]

Play-Asia has ZeroFire up for pre-order at 51.99 USD which is for 2 games.

9 games, actually, and 10 if you want to count US Genesis and Japanese MD Hellfire separately, as they are different, but yeah.

[BIL]

Aicom (of later Viewpoint/Pulstar/Blazing Star acclaim)'s The Lord of King aka The Astyanax was an eye-opening game for me, a couple years back. I thought it felt a bit floaty, when giving it the ol' TRY B-4 U BUY in ShmupMAME.

Turned out to have something like 7f delay on all actions (attack, jump, bomb), and similar on walk startup. Once you factor in homie's startup frames, it's something like 10f between hitting [attack] and your hurtbox showing up, lmao. Even the coin-in button is lagged, amusingly. Newest MAME and ACA perform identically. Later arranged the borrowing of an original Mega System cart, and that, too, handles the same.

Those numbers would've appalled me, previously. I would've assumed it was at 4f, not 7f+. But it's actually very playable, enjoyable even. Takes a bit more attention than it otherwise would, and it's absolutely a flaw that shouldn't be there. Bad Aicom! *wapwapwap* And/or Jaleco! *wapwapwap* But it's alright.

So I'm not surprised to hear this release has ~5/6f input latency. Quite tolerable, especially in relatively forgiving games like Astyanax, and the majority of Batsugun. As I said re: their similarly acceptable PS4 Layer Section, the Saturn port's input response is sharper than a motherfucker. So where poor Cotton and Guardian Force - already in the "noticeable but it's cool" tier on Saturn - got mongled by CC's shitty emulator, VING and Gazelle's razorline speed presumably mitigated.

I'm not interested in ports of Saturn games I already own, or even ones I don't. Not unless they're at M2 ContraVania's beast-woodening "this motherfucker is responding even quicker than my cart" calibre. Those are convenient! So for me, this release doesn't have any bearing on an eventual M2 translation of the arcade version.

[lordnikon]

Step 1: Buy an Intel NUC or comparable AMD based mini-PC (don't use ARM SBC , it adds more lag)
Step 2: Connect to monitor, Boot, Install Linux
Step 3: Install an emulator supporting Saturn games from the package repository
Step 4: Play Batsugun

With an arcade PCB being the most hardcore, and Saturn disc coming in 2nd, I think the next viable option is to roll your own own emulation setup. In this scenario, at least one has access to the best the emulation community has to offer in terms of emulation lag.

Paying money for emulated games on modern consoles, with even MORE lag than a PC emulation setup, is just nuts in my opinion. I have not compared say Radiant Silvergun in emulation on PC, vs the Switch release. I know the conosole/PC ports of this do have added frames of lag. However at least on a PC Emulation setup, you are minimizing software driven latency, and have the power to reduce it (changing emulators or controllers, and increasing USB polling rate).

If you have cash to burn, I think there are still some valid reasons for buying the ports. Convenience does have a price, and for some, it may just be easier to buy it on the eshop, boot and play after a hard days work. Even with the Lag.

Another reason is the extra features in the collections, like art, music, the interface, etc. It can be neat checking out how these ports are packaged in comparison to the originals. Also, if one enjoys the technical side of benchmarking, buying them specifically to test them for lag or to look for frametearing/emulation performance issues is also quite valid.

However if you are frustrated by the lag inherant in a lot of these ports, just don't buy them. I stopped buying these things a long time ago. I feel if a company is going to SELL emulation, they at least need to release something as performant as what is possible with a custom PC.

(This is in response to the general release of BATSUGUN Saturn Tribute Boosted and other shmup ports, not anyone in particular in this discussion.)

[Lemnear]

But they said "Worldwide Release" ... instead is worldwide only for PC (Steam).

Spoiler

There are difference between japanese version and others?

[Bassa-Bassa]

However at least on a PC Emulation setup, you are minimizing software driven latency, and have the power to reduce it (changing emulators or controllers, and increasing USB polling rate).

The thing is, no good Saturn emulator exists to date. And not just because of the glitches you get on many games with any of them, they're far from being optimized for minimun latency, and I don't think even the Retroarch workarounds can do much in the Saturn case.

It'd be quite silly using a PC for playing Saturn Batsugun when you can emulate the PCB without drawbacks.

[Creamy Goodness]

I popped it in for the first time last night. Immediately I went for the arcade screen orientation and one thing I noticed was your ship size does not scale to the size of the screen. It made the hitbox seem much bigger. I also thought the lack of training options would be a hindrance, but simply using rewind is pretty useful. Overall I am digging it.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Step 1: Buy an Intel NUC or comparable AMD based mini-PC (don't use ARM SBC , it adds more lag)
Step 2: Connect to monitor, Boot, Install Linux
Step 3: Install an emulator supporting Saturn games from the package repository
Step 4: Play Batsugun

Hot damn, you can't have a 4 step process and have the first two steps as "buy a mini PC and install Linux" Way too many variables already... and even when you've picked a distro, Linux is great but it's about as friendly as a fight in a pub car park!

I can't help but feel that "spend £25 on a game that performs well enough for people not looking for a problem" is a much better approach to playing Batsugun!

[DenimDemon]

Like how bad ass this game makes me feel since I can comfortably 1cc it.

[DenimDemon]

Switch version is now 1.03. Was there a recent update or am I imagining it?

[Steven]

Oh yeah, this game exists. Mikado put Batsugun Special in recently, so last week I got to play it on PCB for the first time in like a year, and after getting used to how it is on PS4, it was unbelievably responsive on PCB. Like I'm not even sensitive to lag at all, as I have mentioned many times, but there is a massive difference between the PCB and Shitty Connection's garbage and even I can tell the difference. Yeah, I know, it's the Saturn version running in an emulator, but I really don't care. Lag is lag and lag is bad.

[scrilla4rella]

Hot damn, this collection is good! I just said F it and bought the digital for 50. Totally worth it as I'll be playing these games for a long time and don't want to have to futz with a disc.

Crisis impressed me more than it did when I played it on PS1 back in the day.

Force and Storm are stone-cold classics. It interesting because the HD version of Storm seems to be different than the HD version that was released on 360 in Japan (and maybe other places). I'll have to hook up my 360 and compare them side-by-side to makes sure.

I'm still amazed that we have this, Bastugun, Garegga, and Gun Frontier all on the same modern console(s). I honestly never thought us shmup fans would end up having it this good.

[Klatrymadon]

Yeah, the Ray'z collection has Raystorm 'NEO-HD', a new port which follows G-Darius HD's example in keeping the original arcade aspect ratio and generally not messing around with anything. They both have value (the 360 version carries over the R-Gray 0 and the 13 Ships mode from the PS1 port, which are both good fun), but it's really great to finally have the more straightforward, solid port.

[DenimDemon]

Hot damn, this collection is good! I just said F it and bought the digital for 50. Totally worth it as I'll be playing these games for a long time and don't want to have to futz with a disc.

Crisis impressed me more than it did when I played it on PS1 back in the day.

Force and Storm are stone-cold classics. It interesting because the HD version of Storm seems to be different than the HD version that was released on 360 in Japan (and maybe other places). I'll have to hook up my 360 and compare them side-by-side to makes sure.

I'm still amazed that we have this, Bastugun, Garegga, and Gun Frontier all on the same modern console(s). I honestly never thought us shmup fans would end up having it this good.

360 version is pretty different. I personally enjoy it a lot.