The most challenging or 'the most hard but fair' shmup

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rib
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The most challenging or 'the most hard but fair' shmup

Post by rib »

following the previous post this i would like to concentrate on your personal "Hell Hard but Fair" shooter.
in my opinion its also the favourit shooter because thats what a Great shmup should be hard but keep you playing with the feeling thats your fault not the games.

i start with mine:

Star Soldier GC
Battle Garegga
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TWITCHDOCTOR
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Post by TWITCHDOCTOR »

Pulstar...its hard, but its also fair. Easier than R-Type, although not by much!

I like the intro as well. Seeing that nice green haired pilot and hearing the "layed back jazz" music...its like the game is welcoming every time I boot it up. Its inviting me to complete it.
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Shatterhand
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Post by Shatterhand »

Radiant Silvergun. And it's not my fav shmup, not even close of being.

I know people can 1cc it with a hand tied, but I find it to be incredibly hard. It's the shmup where I most get my ass kicked.
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benstylus
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Post by benstylus »

I agree with Radiant Silvergun - Every time I die in that game, I know exactly what mistake I made that caused death.

It's good when a game makes you take responsibility like that.
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Strychnine
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Post by Strychnine »

The main problem with R-Type and similar games is that once you memorize the level (which is largely necessary to beat many of the levels), the game greatly drops in challenge. Many games rely on learned patterns, but R-Type's often soul-crushing difficulty stems primarily from the unexpected and unavoidable if you have not memorized the level to some extent. I'd say Dangun Feveron is the most challenging, yet fair. Gradius, however, is not fair.
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tehkao
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Post by tehkao »

Layer Section/Rayforce, without a doubt.

It's got the most perfectly balanced gameplay I've experienced in a shmup. Maybe that's why it's one of my all time favorites.

It gets pretty intense but I felt it was "fair" all the way through. You never get the feeling that you're in an impossible or no-win situation. There are no "cheap deaths". I'm not sure how this game ranks though in terms of difficulty among the people here. Most people probably don't find it THAT difficult, but it took me about a month of practice to beat the Saturn version.

It's the most satisfying shmup that I've ever beaten.
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alpha5099
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Post by alpha5099 »

Salamander, I'd say. I remember the first time I played it, it was total rapage as I struggled with the first level. It was clearly a difficult game, but I was still compelled to play on. I was so pleased with myself the first time I took down the brain boss. I've been completely and instanteously destroyed in that game, but I have never griped.
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Post by system11 »

Perhaps not the game most deserving of the title, but warrants a mention.

Espgaluda, it's not an easy game, but even when it crushes you like an ant, it doesn't feel unfair - unlike most of the other manics.
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freddiebamboo
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Post by freddiebamboo »

Mars Matrix gives me nightmares

Especially that third level boss. Possibly a little unfair sometimes though.

Dangun Feveron probably feels fairer when you play it and is just as hard.
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WarpZone
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Post by WarpZone »

I would say most Treasure and Cave shooters, for a start.

Gradius V still suffers from some slippery-slope difficulty, but most of the time even if you lose all options you have a chance- you just go into survival mode. Also, even though I still regularly die on the 5th boss' second form and the stage 7 mid-boss, I beat them without dying the very first time, convincing me it's not all about memorization, even if techniques can be helpful to learn.

One of the reasons Ikaruga always feels so fair is that you have two ways to dodge any attack. One, you can move out of the way. Two, you can press the button to change color. This means it's impossible to truly become cornered by any attack.

Dangun Feveron, for all its speed, still remains incredibly intuitive- except level 4 might have one or two 'cheap shots' that have to be memorized, unfortunately.

And of course DoDonPachi. Never have I felt so close, but yet so far... I love the bomb balance. The game practically spoils you with them, yet you still feel so guilty for using each bomb.
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Post by Specineff »

Einhander. Except in the last part of stage 5 where you get bombarded with all of earths' arsenal and your puny weapons can't even scratch their armor. Forget about scoring. Getting out of there alive is enough. Still, the game seldom feels cheap or unfair.
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Post by Jon »

I will throw in another vote for RSG. "Tough but fair" seems to describe the difficulty to a tee imo. I also feel the same about Layer Section despite the fact that I still cant beat it and your ship feels a little too big at times. :?
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Post by captain ahar »

Strychnine wrote:Gradius, however, is not fair.
can't say i agree with him there.

I love Gradius, and I never thought I would say that. I have yet to play a Gradius game that strikes me as unfair (still haven't played ARC Gradius 3 though).

Layer Section definitely fits the title (of the Topic). Always seems to be fair, but I must say the ship "re-centering" still kind of pisses me off.
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Post by landshark »

captain ahar wrote: I love Gradius, and I never thought I would say that. I have yet to play a Gradius game that strikes me as unfair (still haven't played ARC Gradius 3 though).
Then you cannot speak! ;)

Seriously, that game is in a league of its own. Try it, you'll see. Go grab the rom and emulate it if you have to. But it's just stupid-hard.
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Post by captain ahar »

can't emulate. it appears i will have to live without knowing unfair Gradius (until i get that III + IV, when i can spend money again)
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Post by BulletMagnet »

WarpZone wrote:I would say most Treasure and Cave shooters, for a start.
I'd probably agree with that: RSG and Ikaruga are both tough but fair in most instances, and Cave's stuff excels at eliminating cheap stuff from their ganeplay systems from the word "go," though some would argue that it homogenizes their stuff a bit too much (please don't follow up on that, I'm not trying to start anything here! ;)).

As for Gradius, I've been playing Gradius Gaiden lately, and while I like a lot about it, I find that I almost always die from one of three things:

1) Being stranded and killed repeatedly in a nasty area after dying once and losing all my powerups.

2) Weapon fire rate is too slow, and some minor enemy or other out of a swarm manages to crash into me during a lengthy gap in my weapon's discharge.

3) I can't see a bullet against the background.

Perhaps I just need to "get used to" the game a bit more, and I AM getting a bit farther as I practice, but I wouldn't put Gradius into the same "league" as the other games I mentioned, at least solely in terms of pure "fairness."
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Strychnine
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Post by Strychnine »

captain ahar wrote:can't emulate. it appears i will have to live without knowing unfair Gradius (until i get that III + IV, when i can spend money again)
"Can't emulate"?? That's like "Can't Pee!"

what do you mean you can't emulate?

Yeah, I speak primarily of Gradius III arcade when I talk about unfair....Gradius V is certainly very fair.
The white clouds floating on the great blue sky
And the boiling red blood shed in fierce gaming
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Their battered bodies will never forget!

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Post by Ghegs »

Strychnine wrote:Can't emulate"?? That's like "Can't Pee!"

what do you mean you can't emulate?
Maybe his computer isn't powerful enough for it. Hell, my laptop won't even emulate GBA at full speed unless I disable music.
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Post by captain ahar »

i'm sure that i "could." but i have very little desire to (and on top of that, my computer is exploded, temporarily). in the future when I get more involved with arcade games, i am sure i will turn to it to find out what games i want next. as i am just starting with the arcade format, i know of plenty of things i want for sure, and would rather not ruin the first experience with a "preview" (Guwange being the exception, full replay on CD/DVD anyone? :D ).
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