Metal Black S-Tribute

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m.sniffles.esq
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Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

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BloodHawk
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BloodHawk »

In my opinion, City Connection needs to rethink their strategy for the S-Tribute line and move the series towards other genres in the Saturn catalog that don't rely so much on high precision timing. It's no secret Saturn emulation isn't has far along as most other platforms. Even with the long-time free emulators out there today there aren't many reports of super low inputs lags being achieved. IIRC, the last measurements I have seen from others using Mednafen for Radiant Silvergun were around 5 frames on CRT. Now consider a new emulator without as much development time (Z-Engine) and then add another frame or so for forced V-Sync on consoles, then another if you are using it on the Switch and it's no surprise the end result is practically unplayable for shmups.

I can't talk to the Switch port, but their EAR release on PC actually works out pretty good (aside from the "wtf" default controller profile). I haven't measured the input lag myself, but it definitely isn't in the 10 frame range with V-sync off or VRR. My best guess is in the 6 range, which sounds bad on paper but with the gameplay being more focused around positioning and planning I have never felt it and I have yet to die or get hit and think that it was due to any input lag. With the addition of the some of the extra options CC included I think the port is actually very enjoyable and a good product for the price. After seeing that I think that other non-shmup games in the Saturn catalog could benefit from similar treatments.

As far as Metal Black goes though there really hasn't been anything that I have seen from CC to indicate any dramatic changes to their Z-Engine since releasing their other Saturn shmups. If that is the case when it gets released it's without a doubt going to have much worse input lag than the ACA version and a higher price. If they do release it in that state then they are just going to damage their reputation even more. Someone internally at CC has to have realized that by now.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Their emulator is not new at all, it's the old SSF in disguise (but not quite). And they indeed have already started using with non-action games - check the Suchie Pai pack. Sadly stuff like Shienryu, Gurentai or Bubble Symphony have more chances to appear as S-Tributes than in any other form.
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BloodHawk
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BloodHawk »

Yeah perhaps I should have worded that better, I know they have some other existing non-shmup stuff, but they need to consider moving away from releasing any more Saturn shmups until they can improve the emulator.

I didn't know about the SSF in disguise thing though, I will need to read into that more.

Late edit: Looks like City Connection is also releasing Puzzle Bobble 2X & 3 for the S-Tribute line as well, so good news there.
Last edited by BloodHawk on Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonpachi
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Jonpachi »

Ah well, fuck 'em. Let's all buy the Hamster ACA release on the launch day of this CC version just to spite them. :)
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FunktionJCB
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by FunktionJCB »

m.sniffles.esq wrote:The next chapter in City Connection's wonderful and well-received 'S-Tribute' series launches February 2nd[/url]

And by "wonderful" and "well-received" I mean busted and hated...
I won't argue that their S-Tribute series has been very flawed, to say the least (Guardian Force, in particular, was a disaster at launch, and unplayable for me), but let's not assume the worse before the game actually releases.
Their last release (Elevator Action -Returns- S-Tribute) was very solid, no complaints here (at least on PC). A great way to experience the game.

If Metal Black fares as well as that one, I will be one happy camper.
Especially since teams like Hamster continue to forget PCs exist, and completely overlook the platform.
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kid aphex
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by kid aphex »

I don’t mean to derail this thread, but did they ever fix Guardian Force, in any measurable way?
It’s hard to keep up with all these fuckup ports and their subsequent patching.
I’d really like to play it… but don’t want to pay for a nightmare.

Thanks!
Last edited by kid aphex on Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chacranajxy
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Chacranajxy »

Sad to see this game get an S-Tribute release. It's a really interesting game that deserves better treatment.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by StarLightMoonLight »

kid aphex wrote:but did they ever fix Guardian Force, in any measurable way?
They patched it along with Cotton 2/Boomerang and removed a few frames of input lag, they still have an absurd amount of lag so don't bother with them.
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StudioMudprints
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by StudioMudprints »

FWIW, the PS4 version of Layer Section S-Tribute is actually shockingly good, and I can get behind it. Felt pretty responsive, as close to Saturn as you can get. Switch was predictably lagged and PC was busted AF though. I imagine it will be the same or similar with Metal Black as well.
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pablumatic
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by pablumatic »

Was there anything exclusive to the Saturn port of Metal Black that you can't find in the Hamster Arcade Archives version? I imagine City Connection doesn't have anything to offer console gamers and waited far too long to make this port.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Chacranajxy »

pablumatic wrote:Was there anything exclusive to the Saturn port of Metal Black that you can't find in the Hamster Arcade Archives version? I imagine City Connection doesn't have anything to offer console gamers and waited far too long to make this port.
I think the Saturn port added autofire... not sure if that was in the Hamster port, but the PCB definitely lacked it.
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BrianC
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BrianC »

kid aphex wrote:I don’t mean to derail this thread, but did they ever fix Guardian Force, in any measurable way?
Doesn't that game have 7 frames on native hardware? I don't think it can be fixed.

Definitely skipping this release. Metal Black was just released not long ago on ACA and the Saturn version is a bare bones (though nice) port.
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pablumatic
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by pablumatic »

Chacranajxy wrote:I think the Saturn port added autofire... not sure if that was in the Hamster port, but the PCB definitely lacked it.
Just checked the Arcade Archives version on Playstation.

It does have autofire as an option. It also includes 4 variations of the game, Japanese original, the international ROM, a high-score mode and a caravan mode.

So other than the Hamster version not having a physical release like the old Saturn one, it looks like it has more features.
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BIL
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BIL »

VING's Saturn MB was effectively the ACA release of its time. Little in the way of extras, other than autofire; just a straight, disciplined, highly-accurate home release of a yesteryear gem. For the diehards, as was VING's speciality. The only discrepancy I know of is the st4 Drio-kuns' HP, which is a bit lower than it should be. (credit to the invaluable Prickly Angler!)

With the ACA release just a few months ago, and the S-Tribute's considerably higher price tag, it's an ill-timed move on CC's part (at least where PS4 and Switch are concerned). I'm guessing Hamster's release schedule is as mysterious to them as it is us. :lol: But then, I'd argue, debuting with a trio of natively laggier-than-average STGs (Cotton 2, Boomerang & Guardian Force) was also ill-advised. Whoever's in charge doesn't seem a strategic sort. I guess there are practice options (rewind?) for the hardcore, but they're exactly who'll balk at noticeable input lag; maybe a pyrrhic gain.

This said, PS4 S-Tribute Rayforce and Elevator Action Returns' input latency is reportedly decent; being VING-developed just like MB, those ports are razor-sharp on Saturn. So I guess whatever latency CC's emulator adds is mitigated. For games with no M2/Hamster release in sight (Cleopatra Fortune?), and non-PS4/NSW owners, there's at least some utility there.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see CC release Mizubaku Daibouken (exactly the same situation as MB, with an even older ACA release) and Gun Frontier (likewise, and the Saturn version - manfully pieced together by Fujino, later of Triangle Service - is significantly inaccurate, on top of that). S-Tribute seems like a nostalgia project, first and foremost; not enthusiast-geared translation ala Hamster and M2.

I don't think Hamster will be dissuaded from their own Rayforce, EAR, Night Striker (another Saturn favourite), et al, should they ever emulate those hardwares. It's clear they know the unique, VING-esque niche they've carved out over the past near-decade.
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Austin
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Austin »

I haven't invested in a single S-Tribute game yet, as I can already play all of those games on my Saturn. To be fair, I'm guessing people like myself are be a dwindling breed as time moves on, but for now I don't have a huge reason to invest in these outside of convenience. When it comes to that I am not against double dipping just to support companies bringing back these old games to modern platforms, but it's borderline irresponsible for me to drop $40 on something I already have access to, especially when there are noteworthy emulation issues.

Metal Black in particular seems supremely redundant, unless you're someone that doesn't have access to a PS4, PS5 or a Switch. I nabbed the ACA version of that a few weeks back. The upcoming Ray'z collection will also make the Layer Section S-Tribute pointless.

I agree with others that it would be great to see them bring back games that are less easily accessible and less reliant on low input latency. The Saturn has a fairly large selection of non-shmups that could use the re-release treatment.
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BrianC
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BrianC »

I noticed there are some Japan only S-tribute mahjong games. Suchie-pai or something like that.
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BydoR9
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BydoR9 »

Austin wrote:The upcoming Ray'z collection will also make the Layer Section S-Tribute pointless.
I know, I nearly bought S-Tribute Rayforce, based on the PS4 demo not feeling too bad at all - that was of course, until I saw M2 were bringing out the Ray'z collection!

I stumped-up for the SLG version which includes R-Gear as bonus (guess I will be waiting a while for it to arrive then :roll: )
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BIL
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BIL »

BydoR9 wrote:
Austin wrote:The upcoming Ray'z collection will also make the Layer Section S-Tribute pointless.
I know, I nearly bought S-Tribute Rayforce, based on the PS4 demo not feeling too bad at all
Oh nice :shock: Had no idea there was a demo. Cheers, gonna check it out! I'm waiting on Ray'Z, but I'd like it if EAR was acceptable.

EDIT: Wow, yeah, this actually feels pretty sharp. Reminds me of PS4 Dragon Blaze and Strikers '99. Being PS4-only atm, Capcom Arcade Stadium is my current red line; I notice the drag instantly in stuff like 1941 and Carrier Airwing. Playable but disappointing. Nothing feels quite as supernaturally airlock-tight as M2's stuff to me - ACA gets goddamn close, I suspect the former's active lag reduce option puts them ahead - but I'd definitely place this on the right side of the line.

VING were angels. ;-;7 Thanks again Bydo, will have to give EAR a look. :smile:
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Steven »

I just look at the price of the S-Tribute Layer Section and I'm like... why?

It's cheaper to buy a Saturn than it is to buy a PS4/Switch/PC/whatever, and it's cheaper to buy Layer Section on Saturn (used, of course) than it is to buy S-Tribute Layer Section, so assuming you had none of the systems it's on, Saturn version is both better and cheaper! Assuming you don't have a display, people still give CRTs away for free, too, so if you had absolutely nothing at all including a TV or monitor, the Saturn version is still the cheapest overall!
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BIL »

I wonder how much better their image would be, if they'd gone with this for the launch title... legendary port of a beloved game, decent new practice options, sharp control response... and it even has a Cute Girl doing Cute Thing!

Well, a steely-eyed soldier annihilating her prey in a pulverising rain of artillery, but near enough, right? :cool:

Yeah, it's a weird project overall. Whoever its target audience are, it's probably neither of us nor most who've an interest in Saturn gaming.

It'd be nice to see them release a few of the less-obtainable titles, like HyperDuel, Blast Wind and Taromaru. You know, to cut out the more cancerous "Ee, m8, it's minteh w/reg! How about two grand m8?" reseller cunts. Then again, I'm pretty sure the chief reason for Rayforce's surprisingly sharp response is VING, so God knows what the results could be with other games, even just competently-programmed ones.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Those seemingly are games with under 10k units, hardly an emu-based re-release will affect those prices, I'd say. The Tecno Soft games are Sega's and I guess they'd prefer that M2 did something with them at some point instead. Taromaru, on the other hand...
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BIL
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BIL »

No, the prices are perma-fucked; I just mean getting to play them in decent shape without lining some scalper's pockets, or resorting to backups/mods. I have all three and I'd happily double up if they responded as quickly as the PS4 Rayforce demo does, just to save on wear and tear.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Ah, I see.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Udderdude »

BIL wrote:Wow, yeah, this actually feels pretty sharp. Reminds me of PS4 Dragon Blaze and Strikers '99. Being PS4-only atm, Capcom Arcade Stadium is my current red line; I notice the drag instantly in stuff like 1941 and Carrier Airwing. Playable but disappointing. Nothing feels quite as supernaturally airlock-tight as M2's stuff to me - ACA gets goddamn close, I suspect the former's active lag reduce option puts them ahead - but I'd definitely place this on the right side of the line.

VING were angels. ;-;7
BIL wrote:It'd be nice to see them release a few of the less-obtainable titles, like HyperDuel, Blast Wind and Taromaru. You know, to cut out the more cancerous "Ee, m8, it's minteh w/reg! How about two grand m8?" reseller cunts. Then again, I'm pretty sure the chief reason for Rayforce's surprisingly sharp response is VING, so God knows what the results could be with other games, even just competently-programmed ones.
I tried Galactic Attack on GroovyMAME, and it is indeed very responsive. My PC isn't godmode enough to run MAME Saturn emulation with Frame Delay enabled, though. Soon.

Also, fuck resellers.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

(extremely obvious punchline set-up)

What does the S stand for?
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by Jonpachi »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote:(extremely obvious punchline set-up)

What does the S stand for?
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by hamfighterx »

Metal Black S-Tribute is CANCELLED on PS4/Switch. Will still release on Xbox and PC, and City Connection has changed the price to match Hamster's AA release. Wowwwwwww.

Honestly, good on City Connection for being self-aware enough to realize that it was a bad idea to release this one. And for going above and beyond to not impact the Xbox and PC players who don't have access to Hamster's recent release. I respect them more as a company after this news.
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by BIL »

Interesting, indeed. That's an excellent comprehensive response you posted in the article comments btw. Image
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Re: Metal Black S-Tribute

Post by hamfighterx »

BIL wrote:Interesting, indeed. That's an excellent comprehensive response you posted in the article comments btw. Image
Ahhh that must be you with the glorious Garegga inspired name? Good stuff!
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