Better without Autofire

[BIL]

I will say, whichever approach you prefer (0/10/15/30hz), Metal Black is genuinely a different game via manual fire.

When I was finding this out for myself and researching the clear, I was struck by many of your old posts where you were seeking to disabuse the community of the idea that Metal Black was a brutal, unforgiving clear. The 30hz clear came pretty quickly for me, so I thought the apparently widespread community consensus of Metal Black's difficulty was strange. But then I began to infer that the prevailing opinion must have been based on no-auto attempts. Is this right, do you think - or is this just a bad inference?

Community opinion on Metal Black seems to have changed quite a bit since then. I'd theorize that's because of the more universal move to 30hz, but I'm not sure why I think there would have been so many more no-auto pumper players then. Has there been a community-wide change in stance towards the AUTO question over the last 15ish years, or am I just imagining?

It's an interesting theory for sure. I'd have to go back and look over the old HS/GD threads... I want to say autofire was pretty commonplace on the MB tables, circa 2010, and Darius Gaiden was already a poster boy of "EZ auto" survival clears - so AF definitely wasn't outside this forum's notice. At the time, I was quite militantly against it, though strictly in personal terms (this made me even more surprised at MB's feared rep - "It's got generous burst fire, no checkpoints or powerdowns, and my noob ass just bagged the 1CC, my next-best ALL being frickin Thunder Cross; what gives?")

My (unabashedly romanticised ) theory, back then, was always a player aversion to the Black Fly itself - it moving a tad slow, and ostensibly suffering from a lack of oblique attack options. Of course, any MB adept knows the main shot's enormous hitbox, covering the entire top, front, and underside of the ship, with the Beam even letting you back over varmints at your six like so much roadkill. To a demoralised, uninitiated player, things as early as st2's minefield must look like utter horror. To an adept, it's damn near cosy; a "born and raised in the bramble bush" situation.

It's impossible to say at this point, with it being pretty much muscle memory, but I'd like to think a grasp of that hit area remains vital no matter your shot frequency (indeed, that's how the ST was always written). Out of curiosity, did you find yourself relying on oblique attack/defense in your credits? From my 30hz credits, the main benefit was punching through ordinarily-gnarly buggers like Drio-kun (not nearly as like to nom up enough NEWALONE for a seeker barrage), Mr. Caterpillar (a terrifying - though hitbox-illustrative! - squeeze averted), and st4's resurrected Green Mambo midboss (he'll sullenly bugger off fast, aiming to shoulder-check you on the way out, if you don't bash his ugly mug right-quick ).

Coincidentally, I had a very similar experience with Gun.Smoke, the other STG I've put significant time on. That's another built around oblique close-quarters action. It's also an STG where autofire is less instantly-attractive; pointblanking is rarely a thing, and with the emphasis on mid/short-ranged combat VS tenacious zako, the shot limit will leave spray n' prayers hanging. Coming to pure STGs from a Contra/Metal Slug background, where you're constantly improvising around short-ranged oblique threats, MB and G.S were both comfy fits... I suspect that "home court advantage" is why players vastly more skilled than myself sometimes find G.S unfriendly, before inevitably going on to the ALL, once they've adjusted to its idiosyncrasies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwboXIA7Q3I

Fuckin hell, I wish it weren't so late here. Nice Ol Granny next door wouldn't survive the proper blasting of such an implacable cyber tune, even if her ceiling and floor remained safely un-catermonged!

I'd be A-OK with a manual and autofire ship choice. This is how Thunder Dragon 2 works, with 1P benefiting from 30hz, and 2P the exact opposite - 30hz will cripple its natural 60hz autofire, causing awful Euroshump feels.

Fuck, did I not know this? I knew this, right? I need to get back to TD2 - I've always hated 2P, but I rather doubt I turned off my full-auto settings when switching from P1. Might open up the game again.

Actual footage of me forgetting this vital info: "God damn! These letters aren't easy to catch without bombing! I think I figured 'em out, though! Waitaminute. Fuuuuck!" (pls read that swear in Vito Spatafore's voice )

Must be the STG equivalent of autoerotic asphyixiation? Turn off the autofire and you'll cut through the bastards like butter. (at the cost of coverage, ofc!)

NAO DAS B THA STUF BOYEEEEEE

Spoiler

[Rastan78]

Fuckin hell, I wish it weren't so late here. Nice Ol Granny next door wouldn't survive the proper blasting

This is what I saw before reading the whole sentence. You sick bastard. Go ahead and make her day lol

[BIL]

Imma blast it loud tomorrow morning and leave my front door open, gon be like EXORCIST 3 with granny crawling up the stairs into MA ROOM

[Rastan78]

https://youtu.be/MQdgwVEXM-g

[BBH]

I feel like one of the last holdouts on this issue, as everybody else rushes to turn on 30hz before they even start seriously playing a game, I'm still manually mashing pretty much all the time.

My reasoning - it's just what I'm used to. I live in the United States and have always been an arcade rat, and US cabinets generally don't have autofire buttons built in, unless it's something programmed into the game, or even with its own button like Raiden DX. Rapidly pressing the button is what I got used to. I'm not going to make the argument that now that I'm older my reflexes are shot and my hands don't work the same, because neither of those statements are true. I'm still able to do these things, so I'm going to do it. I find it to be a more engaging experience most of the time.

One story I've told before on stream is back when the first Art of Fighting came out on the Neo-Geo (yeah I know it's not a shmup), I had a friend (well, arcade acquaintance I guess) who played it a lot and we sort of got into a high score battle on the 1P mode. The problem was, I couldn't mash fast enough to clear the 3rd ice breaking bonus stage, which requires you to mash at a certain speed to get a health boost for the last two stages (which gives you more points if you get Perfect victories). I just couldn't figure out how to mash fast enough, and then my friend showed me his secret - he would use two hands to drum the button, alternating in a rhythmic series with his middle and index fingers on each hand. It was an eye-opening moment that made me realize there were other techniques I could be using in situations like that, instead of just trying to press and depress the button over and over with just 1 finger. From that point on, my mashing style changed to alternating middle and index fingers on a single button when necessary (i.e. there wasn't another button I needed to press at the time), and I still do that to this day.

And then you've got things like Track 'n Field and other such games where mashing speed is kinda the point of some events, autofire completely destroys the point of those. You've got people like Hector Rodriguez who developed an 8-finger mash for playing these games. I definitely feel like the execution required in things like this is a legitimate skill that shouldn't be completely erased by autofire.

But we're getting off the subject of shmups. The fact of the matter is, there are a lot of older games like Vimana that were not properly balanced around 30hz autofire, but now that everyone has access to it through emulators, everyone wants to use it on every game. Dash Dingo made a pretty interesting video talking about how autofire has these problems on older shmups, and said something I agree with - that players should at least attempt to understand what the original vision of the game was and try it without to see how it plays. You don't really get the whole picture of how the game was played by people upon release on cabinets without autofire circuits installed. In the end nothing's stopping you from playing everything on autofire if that's what you want to do, but I feel like a lot of players are relying on it as a crutch for everything now, even on games that don't necessarily need it. But hey that's just me.

Just curious, doesn't G-Darius get kind of insane with the amount you have to mash the button to win beam duels at later zones if you are not using autofire? Or do I remember wrong?

True story - in early 2021 they opened a Round 1 in the area, and they ended up putting in some old Noir cabs that came from a location in Illinois that closed down. One of the games was G-Darius. And guess what - no autofire button on it! I set out to attempt to clear it without autofire, and... yeah it wasn't pretty, but I eventually got the clear. Even though I think I'm pretty good at mashing, I wasn't able to mash fast enough to counter beams on the 4th boss on top route, and had to learn other strats to get a clear on it.

(in looking around I also noticed that Pete Hahn had posted in a thread here where he was in the exact same boat I was in, wanting to know if there were any resources around here for learning non-autofire strats for the game. Of course, this was the wrong place to ask since everyone loves autofire here. But seeing how he's in Illinois, I wonder if we ended up getting that same cabinet...)

[jehu]

@jehu yeah it's a translation thing. I thought it was odd so I delved into it and found the original passage in the Mook. The phrase KBR used is 連射 (ren sha) which is the Japanese term for rapid fire. You see it on all those clear autofire buttons at Hey on the autofires that say A連射 15/SEC etc.

Well, that sounds pretty settled then. Gaiden always becomes the poster child for this debate - it's almost irritatingly unavoidable.

My (unabashedly romanticised ) theory, back then, was always a player aversion to the Black Fly itself - it moving a tad slow, and ostensibly suffering from a lack of oblique attack options.

Out of curiosity, did you find yourself relying on oblique attack/defense in your credits?

I played a few early credits that ended in Stage 2 collision chain deaths and went looking for strategy. First thing I found was your guide, and one sentence in particular stuck with me: "Think of this feature as both a vertical attack method and an improvised force field - a shield as much as a sword." I went back to the lab with Stage 2 carrying the 'sword/shield' mindset, and especially wanted to see how much of a 'shield' MAX BEAM really was. And yeah, changed the way I played the game almost immediately - could be a completely different, worse IMO, game with a smaller mainshot hurt box. Stage 2, it seems, is designed to 'teach' you this crucial skill.

The move to non-auto caused a lot of issues early. The moments you mentioned, universally harder bosses, serious problems with collision deaths again - including a lot caused by stupidly moving straight up into ST.2 rockets and the like, not taking into consideration the extra time needed to take them down.

Dash Dingo made a pretty interesting video talking about how autofire has these problems on older shmups, and said something I agree with - that players should at least attempt to understand what the original vision of the game was and try it without to see how it plays. You don't really get the whole picture of how the game was played by people upon release on cabinets without autofire circuits installed. In the end nothing's stopping you from playing everything on autofire if that's what you want to do, but I feel like a lot of players are relying on it as a crutch for everything now, even on games that don't necessarily need it. But hey that's just me.

Thanks for all the details and reflections, BBH. Lot of good things in that Dash Dingo video - agree with the majority of it. There are certain games that just feel better without it IMO, and so I'm interested in the specific games that actually do benefit and why. (Any particular games stand out to you? Or are you taking the universalist anti-auto stance? And, if so, any games at all you won't play without auto on?)

As always happens, everyone enters with their perspective and makes the conversation far more interesting and nuanced than I initially expected.

[Rastan78]

@BBH when you tried to beat the boss beam with mashing do you remember if you countered the first beam? If you wait to at least the 2nd time the boss fires the beam it should be easier. I think 8hz or so but it has to be consistent. Not super easy. And at least for me I think it would be easier on some light Sanwa buttons than some beefy American style buttons that take 5x as much pressure.

@jehu you're probably right that there's some doubt there that he meant rapid fire mashing. It is annoying to talk about. Either way the default la yout was probably intended to be the OG way to play. I just think they likely also had autofire play in mind for score attack on some level.

I think for the anti autofire crowd there's a more compelling argument that the original G Darius arcade game is meant to be played with mashing. Maruyama did a bunch of tweets about it a long time ago. It's like you're meant to wear the bosses down enough to counter beam sort of like how you can't pin a fresh opponent in a wrestling game. I'm 99% sure G Darius was designed to test your mashing skill like track and field. That's what adds tension to the beam counters.

Auto just completely removes the mechanic and makes it brain dead easy outside of having a capture and knowing when to counter. Then just hold the auto button. Auto literally removes an intended button mashing mechanic that's a core part of the game design. Yet no one really complains or calls this cheating?

I think maybe it's bc it's a pretty questionable design decision. It's a perfect example where the intended design isn't really the enjoyable way to play for most players. Also the game still has plenty of challenge and depth without that mechanic. So at the end it comes down to preference.

[Steven]

Mashing in G-Darius sucks. Do not want.

Also, as noted, buttons make a big difference. Hayabusa buttons = you'd think I'm using 12Hz~15Hz auto even though I'm firing manually, and that is considering that my right arm is partially disabled. I can't go nearly that fast with Sanwa or Seimitsu buttons. The Hayabusa buttons do feel somewhat cheap in comparison, but they are super fast and have a nice texture. Well, not anymore since I wore the texture off my fire button already so it's pretty smooth, but you get the point lol.

[BBH]

Thanks for all the details and reflections, BBH. Lot of good things in that Dash Dingo video - agree with the majority of it. There are certain games that just feel better without it IMO, and so I'm interested in the specific games that actually do benefit and why. (Any particular games stand out to you? Or are you taking the universalist anti-auto stance? And, if so, any games at all you won't play without auto on?)

I used autofire to 2-ALL Eight Forces in a recent La Calice Cup tournament because fuck that game. That's one that's damn near unplayable without it and I didn't really feel like suffering. There have been a couple others I've done on in my ongoing 1CC project on Twitch/Youtube... heck I used it on G-Darius because I just wanted to go for the clear, but I pretty much only used that autofire during bosses to win the beam battles. A little hypocritical of me, but I do try to point out in the descriptions of any videos if autofire was used because it matters to me. I should get a non-auto clear of G-Darius recorded at some point though.

@BBH when you tried to beat the boss beam with mashing do you remember if you countered the first beam? If you wait to at least the 2nd time the boss fires the beam it should be easier. I think 8hz or so but it has to be consistent. Not super easy. And at least for me I think it would be easier on some light Sanwa buttons than some beefy American style buttons that take 5x as much pressure.

I could usually counter the first two, sometimes three and then lose it on the fourth. I have been able to get it in from savestate practicing it on the Switch version, but it's really nerve-wracking to go for in a real run. (I will point out the cabinet I played on was a Noir sitdown and definitely did not have American buttons. I could double-finger mash pretty easily on it but I'll always prefer my HRAP4 buttons at home)

I've tried altering the timing on releasing the beam, some people say it's better to start from the far edge of the screen and then move forward when you're beam countering too... I dunno, there never seems to be a clear answer to the best way to do it because everybody else saves themselves the grief and turns on 30hz

[jehu]

In other news:

Fuck me I've been playing 2P Thunder Dragon 2 wrong all along.

[Rastan78]

I could usually counter the first two, sometimes three and then lose it on the fourth. I have been able to get it in from savestate practicing it on the Switch version, but it's really nerve-wracking to go for in a real run. (I will point out the cabinet I played on was a Noir sitdown and definitely did not have American buttons. I could double-finger mash pretty easily on it but I'll always prefer my HRAP4 buttons at home)

I've tried altering the timing on releasing the beam, some people say it's better to start from the far edge of the screen and then move forward when you're beam countering too... I dunno, there never seems to be a clear answer to the best way to do it because everybody else saves themselves the grief and turns on 30hz

So on that 4th boss you had a hard time with did you try countering his very first beam? What I mean is if you ignore that one and let the boss cycle through and counter his beam the second time he fires then it will be easier. There's a hidden mechanic where the bosses get "tired" and fire less powerful beams later in the fight.

@steven, yeah I was watching a Kamui stream where she had a Hayabusa button completely break apart (the plunger cap piece) and had to replace with a Sanwa mid stream lol. They need a light touch but are also maybe a bit less robust than the commercial arcade buttons ie Sanwa / Seimitsu.

[Steven]

@steven, yeah I was watching a Kamui stream where she had a Hayabusa button completely break apart (the plunger cap piece) and had to replace with a Sanwa mid stream lol. They need a light touch but are also maybe a bit less robust than the commercial arcade buttons ie Sanwa / Seimitsu.

Yeah, I worry about that happening to me too. Kamui's pretty rough on the controls, though. Those Hayabusa buttons are fast but I worry/wonder about their overall long-term durability.

Games that autofire saves?

Just remembered one that definitely helps: arcade Zero Wing. Going from MD to arcade for the first time is quite surprising because enemies in the arcade version take a ton of hits, so without auto you will get tired super fast. Good luck killing all of those weird vertical barrier things that show up near the end of stage 2 without auto. I can never get the last one, although I have tried many times.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Arcade Zero Wing

Saved by autofire? More like saved by cheats

Edit: Image removed! Was a screenshot of the 'remove screen flashing' cheat.

Not like there's much to save anyway. Great soundtrack. Meh game.

[Steven]

Great soundtrack

Obligatory U-Brand Zero Wing: https://youtu.be/X1wpqKazoWM

Also the red flash is apparently more like a pulse when you play it on a CRT to the point where it isn't bad at all. I haven't gotten a chance to play it on a CRT, though.

[Jeneki]

This topic needs some Zed Blade. Your score is basically how long you can mash while pointing your guns at any random terrain piece. I remember playing that on a regular MVS cabinet and not even holding the joystick during half the first boss fight, to switch hands mashing when I got tired.

I'm not super interested in arguing over autofire these days though, as every modern leaderboard will have a column for autofire on/off in games where it matters. If someone has a strong preference they can filter as needed.

[Rastan78]

Also the red flash is apparently more like a pulse when you play it on a CRT to the point where it isn't bad at all. I haven't gotten a chance to play it on a CRT, though.

I have trouble tracking the flashing bullets in NMK games like Gunnail. Especially if they're more in my peripheral vision. And I just find them unpleasant. I was wondering if it's better on CRT?

Now that I think of it I recently got an OLED with black frame insertion that does an excellent job of mimicking CRT style motion clarity. Normally I leave it turned off bc it introduces slight input lag. Might have to try out Gunnail again with BFI on and see if that helps.

[Steven]

Oh yeah, speaking of the Neo Geo, Andro Dunos is miserable without autofire.

[velo]

I can respect the personal conviction, Bassa. But also, this is really not what I wanted in this thread, not because the argument is without merit - but because it's going to turn into a conversation everyone has had a few too many times.

Well so much for THAT

You'd think autofire would certainly ruin mashy wrestling games, but joke's on you, it doesn't seem to do anything at all in King of the Monsters.

Any shmup that doesn't have autofire, should have had autofire. Is there a game with default autofire where you prefer to mash? Excluding games where it's like 3hz and basically useless. The internal autofire in Darius Gaiden seems kinda sorta ok-ish... do mash-players use it for the slow parts?

[Lethe]

In other news:

Fuck me I've been playing 2P Thunder Dragon 2 wrong all along.

30hz makes your missiles refire much faster than holding the button, so it's still an advantage to have both.

[BIL]

In other news:

Fuck me I've been playing 2P Thunder Dragon 2 wrong all along.

30hz makes your missiles refire much faster than holding the button, so it's still an advantage to have both.

Horeh shiet I'd no idea, cheers bud!

[Steven]

Also the red flash is apparently more like a pulse when you play it on a CRT to the point where it isn't bad at all. I haven't gotten a chance to play it on a CRT, though.

I have trouble tracking the flashing bullets in NMK games like Gunnail. Especially if they're more in my peripheral vision. And I just find them unpleasant. I was wondering if it's better on CRT?

Now that I think of it I recently got an OLED with black frame insertion that does an excellent job of mimicking CRT style motion clarity. Normally I leave it turned off bc it introduces slight input lag. Might have to try out Gunnail again with BFI on and see if that helps.

I had some minor problems with bullet visibility on Hishouzame's stage 1 when playing on PS4 and Switch, as I found they tended to blend into the trees a bit too much, but then when I got my PCB a few days ago and put it in my Astro City I found that I had no visibility problems there at all. Maybe it's just because the Astro's monitor is huge and my PC monitor really isn't, but I don't know; something about the Astro monitor makes it easier to play on and I don't think it is simply the size of the screen. You might have a similar experience; there is some quality that CRTs have that really does make a difference for some things, I think.

[BIL]

https://twitter.com/Dedeo832/status/1603055207323426816

Made me think of this thread. "At that time, there was no shop with a ren, and it was a struggle. Rapid fire button convenient!"

[Rastan78]

I had some minor problems with bullet visibility on Hishouzame's stage 1 when playing on PS4 and Switch, as I found they tended to blend into the trees a bit too much, but then when I got my PCB a few days ago and put it in my Astro City I found that I had no visibility problems there at all. Maybe it's just because the Astro's monitor is huge and my PC monitor really isn't, but I don't know; something about the Astro monitor makes it easier to play on and I don't think it is simply the size of the screen. You might have a similar experience; there is some quality that CRTs have that really does make a difference for some things, I think.

Yeah CRT still has a big motion clarity advantage. Even though we now have instant response flat panels that don't blur and ghost with moving objects like an old puke green game boy lcd there's a fundamental difference to the way CRTs draw an image.

On CRT a frame is drawn and then instantly decays and disappears. Hence the subtle flicker of the rolling scanlines. On LCD or OLED the frame is held on screen for the entire 16.7 ms until it is replaced by the next frame. For some reason our eyes interpret that as motion blur even though technically there is none on an OLED. While we interpret the more strobing image of the CRT as perfect crispness in motion.

Black frame insertion is a method to try and eliminate the blur on flat panels and it can make a huge difference especially in shmups where you have constant scrolling and fast moving bullets.

[copy-paster]

Thunder Blaster were designed for mashing, the faster you mash the bigger your gun is, and you also get a end bonus by how many shots you fired. But autofire makes the game look like this.

I think slow tapping in Cave games also needed for score, like maintaining DDP chaining or Ketsui empty-locking.

[jehu]

Thunder Blaster were designed for mashing, the faster you mash the bigger your gun is, and you also get a end bonus by how many shots you fired. But autofire makes the game look like this.

I think slow tapping in Cave games also needed for score, like maintaining DDP chaining or Ketsui empty-locking.

Perfect example, CPS

Does full-auto break Air Duel, too? Given we've already had Thunder Blaster and Fire Barrel, it seems Irem's STG legacy took a hit from the standardization of 30hz.

Anyone who knows these games better than I do: are they pretty good no auto?

We've already got quite a list of games suffering from Vimana syndrome - I'm genuinely surprised.

[Dave_K.]

Thunder Blaster were designed for mashing, the faster you mash the bigger your gun is, and you also get a end bonus by how many shots you fired. But autofire makes the game look like this.

I was going to post exactly this! Perfect example, and also a fun two player non-cooporative game to see who is the better shmup button masher!

[Rastan78]

I think you could throw Blazing Star in there as it had that fill the power bar that improves your shot by mashing thing. And doesn't it depend on your ship? Like the Aryustailm has a more powerful shot if you don't use 30hz and mash at a moderate rate. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

Pulstar same thing except the difference playing with/without auto is more subtle.

What's up Dave_K? It's been a while.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Blazing Star is an interesting one since fire rate needed to actually achieve the boosted shot depends on ship, and they're obviously not made equal. Windina is notoriously easy to pull off while still being super good. Aryu's autofire is ass while also being hard to achieve, which is a funny choice. (Of course, if you're using Aryu, you'll almost exclusively be using the charge shot.)

The other ships are all average if I recall right, with average gains to go with it. Hellhound is very convenient due to more homing stuff, I guess.

Except for Peplos. It has what's probably the strongest shot in the game, locked behind an absurdly high fire rate requirement. You can cheese the game with it completely if you autofire. The thing can melt through bosses.

[Lander]

Boogie Wings / The Great Ragtime Show probably qualifies; the biplane has an RPM mechanic that controls your shot intensity and AoE overheat attack, with a cooldown rate that doesn't sync up nicely with various autofire presets.
You have to dial it in to some obscure odd numbered Hz, and even then it'll decay too fast, or tick over into AoE after holding the button for too long. Manually finding the rhythm is more controllable.

[ZPScissors]

Funnily enough I generally don't play Deathsmiles with autofire, too many buttons when it is used.