Better without Autofire

[Bassa-Bassa]

Anyway, the cases of undisclosed additional built-in AF option are very few to build the argument around it, aren't they? You should answer first why they didn't add it until 1997 if they really didn't like a super black or white scenario.

Darius (1987) and Darius II (1989) have autofire as an optional dip switch on the PCB. By as early as 1989 Gamest reported players were also using auto on the bomb button for Darius, especially to help with milking Great Thing's drills.

But it was Cave the one which kind of made of it a norm, wasn't it? I guess exceptions like the Dariuses are to be expected in a genre this old. And for those I totally understand the discussion, mind, specially when it's as stupidly demanding as the Dariuses. As for Gamest, it's nice they warned about the usage of cheating techniques so early. Their charts would be pointless otherwise.

[Rastan78]

In Gamest autofire was allowed in all Darius games. The mention of autofire on B button was just part of additional notes that accompanied offical scores.

Scores would have other notes sometimes like lives remaining, NMNB, score reached by a certain stage, autofire used, random message from the player etc. There's no warning about cheating just to be clear.

Look at Garegga or Gradius where auto will be applied to A, B and C buttons. This is totally legit.

[ACSeraph]

Christ, this thread...
SOme real lOsers jOined the fOrum while I was out...

---

Did anyone mention Triggerheart Exelica? Not exactly autofire, but the game is infinitely more satisfying with auto-swing off. Worth trying out if you've never played it that way.

I have a feeling XII Stag is also probably pretty great without auto-wiggle, but I'm not willing to demolish my arcade stick to find out.

[cfx]

Christ, this thread...
SOme real lOsers jOined the fOrum while I was out...

Yeah, I have started tO really wish this fOrum had of of thOse "ignOre user" functions...

[BIL]

I have a feeling XII Stag is also probably pretty great without auto-wiggle, but I'm not willing to demolish my arcade stick to find out.

My mom walked in on me while was STAGGIN IT UP in a manual stylie and took away my vidya privileges 3;

I said MOM NO I WASNT JACKIN IT but she pointed out the shaweet pixel art and tbh I could see where she was comin from

[ACSeraph]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has "special" feelings for XII Stag...

[BIL]

Fujino = oldschool Seibu chonky pixel beastman G-STREAM 2020, while the PCB will melt itself and possibly burn down your house, packs even more Raiden Fighters-style Monster Deathmachines than XII! The 360 port is a good bet

[Jeneki]

If someone wants to try XII Stag or Psyvariar without auto-wiggle, consider keyboard controls. I've found alternating finger presses left/right is less tiring.

[Rastan78]

Anyone interested in doing a rough translation of part of this Gamest page? It's from Jan. 1992 issue. Inside the boxed section various game devs respond to a questionnaire asking how they feel about autofire use.

[Steven]

Toaplan is there, so I will do it when I get a chance. Vimana is mentioned here as being damaged by using autofire lol.

This might take a while. Understanding it is easy, as is reading it, but translation always takes a while unless I do a super rough translation, which I don't want to do.

Overall the general attitude of the developers here towards autofire seems to be "do what you want because we don't care".

[Rastan78]

That's awesome. No rush. The article is over 30 years old so it's not going anywhere lol

I'm guessing that sort of discussion straight from devs at that time about the pros and cons is pretty rare?

[Steven]

I've never seen anything like this before, but I haven't really looked through Gamest that much yet. I have an issue (the big Raiden special feature, which also includes the Toaplan interview that is translated over on shmuplations), and there is all sorts of cool stuff in that magazine, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were more things like this in other issues.

Taito is outright saying that games SHOULD have autofire for the benefit of the players, excluding the super hardcore. Autofire haters, report to damage control for assignment.

Seibu didn't use the format of the survey to answer, unlike everyone else. Damn it Seibu why you gotta be different? Not that it really makes a difference, of course. Edit: in the end Seibu's was the easiest to translate by far anyway lol

Alright, done. I am not satisfied with some of my translation, particularly Namco's answer to 2, and some of it is very stiff and awkward, but it works for now. If someone has something better, tell me and I'll change whatever it is.

Questions:

① Do you know about autofire devices?

② What do you think autofire devices are used for?

③ When autofire devices are used with the games you have developed, does it make them better or does it damage them?

④ What do you think about autofire being added at the hardware or software level in the future?

⑤ Do you have any other opinions?


Capcom
① Yes.

② To play games longer. To make games easier.

③ When we plan games, we adjust them not expecting autofire devices to be used, but instead the human ability to perform rapid fire. Considering this, the gameplay is damaged to some extent.

④ We will attempt to add it as much as possible as a relief method for those that can’t do autofire. (When using full auto, difficulty will increase, etc.)

⑤ To the extent possible, we make games that can be played even without using autofire devices. However, in reality the self-evident truth is that using autofire devices makes game development easier. Autofire devices are useful, so human nature makes us want to use them. But this doesn’t mean that if all stores (game centers) use them, that, as a maker, we must develop games assuming they have autofire devices. Whether this is good or bad is a different matter, and the way games are developed will probably change. If that is the way of the times, we will go along with it, but…


Toaplan
① Yes.

② To have a feeling of exhilaration as if firing a machine gun. Except for some, for the great majority of players, to reduce the difficulty.

③ If we limit it just to Vimana, you can shoot a lot (TL note: ??? Not really sure what to do with タメ撃ち), so we feel that it is damaged.

④ We want to be flexible on a case-by-case basis. However, we would like to achieve the same conditions for all players, and in terms of software, to be able to handle changing to weapons that have different specifications. (TL note: they got feedback from confused players who played Slap Fight and thought the laser was broken because they tried to mash the button to fire it. Wouldn’t be surprised if this also happened with Tatsujin’s Thunder Laser and Same! Same! Same!’s Super Fire)

⑤ We have great respect for the attitude of Tahara-san in Macau. (TL note: absolutely no clue what they are referring to here)


Namco
① Yes.

② The idea is the same as with cars: it's easier if you have it, but I prefer manual! So in the end we feel it’s up to the player to decide.

③ For Dragon Saber, we’re not happy.

④ In conclusion we feel it is up to the player to decide. Since the game developer has thought [about the game] all the way up to the release stage, we are most pleased to have the game selected in its released state. I'm not saying that autofire hardware is a bad thing, though.

⑤ In the future, we feel there will be arguments for and against hardware and software autofire, but we feel that both are fine as long as the player enjoys it.


Konami
① Yes.

② For the operators and for the players, I feel they are installed to preserve the buttons. For our game Hyper Olympic, the most famous (?) event kosuri (TL note: note sure what kosuri refers to, but context makes it clear that it's the name of an event in the game where you smash the fuck out of the button/buttons) significantly shortens the lifespan of the buttons, and we saw many game centers with damaged buttons. It costs money for the operator to change buttons, so they surely want to limit equipment breakdown as much as possible. Additionally, users certainly don’t want to play games with damaged buttons.

I feel that this is the reason that autofire devices are used.

…and also because games with autofire devices are easier.

③ Of the games that I have developed, I don’t think they change with or without autofire.

④ As for attaching a continuous fire device at the hardware stage, would you be happy for the operator to make a decision based on the game content? I think it depends on the nature of the game, as opposed to attaching it at the software stage.


Taito
① Yes.

② To alleviate the customer becoming tired.

③ It has a damaging effect on Gun Frontier.

④ For current customers (excluding the superfans), I think having it is absolutely the best. It's a generation and an era. (TL note: Not really sure WTF this is supposed to mean, but there's no other way to translate it, so this is how it is)

⑤ In the beginning of Gun Frontier’s development, the game had full auto. However, it did not fit with the game world (TL note: the word 世界観 is used here, and the only real translation, worldview, doesn’t align properly with the intended meaning. For all intents and purposes, this concept does not exist in English in the same way it does in Japanese), so it was removed. As a result, we weren’t able to adjust the game in time, but I still feel that full auto does not suit the game. However, because shooting games from now on should have full auto, developers should assume this as a condition [of development].

In the present era, the sweaty gripping of joysticks, smashing buttons until your fingers hurt, and with your body swaying left and right… that era is now the good old times in the present-day Tokyo Love Story.


Seibu Kaihatsu
Playing a game and deciding if it’s fun or not is up to the player. Therefore, it is up to the player to decide if attaching an autofire device makes the game fun, and whether one should be attached is up to the store (game center) to decide. As a maker, because having the games we created be enjoyed is more important than anything, especially if there are no problems, we do not question whether it is right or wrong to use autofire devices.

[Steven]

I guess I will put my overall thoughts on this here to separate it from the translation. I also have some old stuff to reply to even though it's been over a year since then.

It seems that these devs are mostly of the opinion that auto exists but don't care if the player or game center uses it or not, although they mention some games that are better without auto: Vimana, Dragon Saber, and Gun Frontier. Namco didn't explain the deal with Dragon Saber and I've never played it, so I don't know what's going on with that. I vaguely remember something about using autofire with Gun Frontier, another game I have never played, when it was released on ACA. Toaplan knew at the time that Vimana breaks when played with autofire, which I find somewhat interesting, and I still maintain that the game is much better without it.

There is one big TL note I must attach to this entire thing: it's not clear in most cases if these responses reflect the opinions of the company as a collective whole or in part, or if they are the opinions of individual employees. The exception is definitely Konami, who is definitely an individual.

It is also interesting that the Konami dev is like "yeah dude don't fuck up your buttons. Use auto!" and Taito, who was one of the largest STG publishers of that time period, is actively recommending its use unless you are a crazy person. Seibu's response, despite being the shortest and most straightforward, is probably my favourite one: do whatever you want.

Now for old stuff.

I already mentioned before that autofire devices started showing up in arcades in 1988, but in case someone forgot, now you remember!

I have a hard time with K. Tiger no autofire. It's such a brutal game, even as a 'zako manager' with the boss speedkills. I shudder to think what it would take to kill some of the later bosses with manual fire, but I suppose I should try it some time. Might make the early stages a little more interesting, anyway.

This will sound weird, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

I think Kyuukyoku Tiger is significantly more fun without auto, having cleared it multiple times without auto now, going as far as the 2-5 boss without it.

Oops, missed this before, but Same! 1P is greatly enhanced by auto.

I want to make an amendment to this. It's really not all that different in the stages. Where it matters is bosses, and in this case almost every boss is much easier with it. Stage 4 boss doesn't really change that much, but the rest are easier.

having mashing in a modern game should be a legal offense.

Lol time to send Takahashi Meijin to prison now that Star Gagnant exists.

[Rastan78]

Beautiful translation, Steven! Thanks for your work.

In the present era, the sweaty gripping of joysticks, smashing buttons until your fingers hurt, and with your body swaying left and right… that era is now the good old times in the present-day Tokyo Love Story.

This paints quite a picture lol

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The classic 1986 jamma pcb of Capcom's Hyper Dyne Sidearms (that was exclusively distributed in the USA by Romstar arcade licensee later in 1987 as a full jamma conversion pcb kit complete with full-sized arcade marquee) has default autofire that's faster stock than if you use an external autofire pcb with it. This applies to the original JPN region pcb of the same name as well.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Fingolfin]

Beautiful translation, Steven! Thanks for your work.

Agreed! Thank you very much for the translation.

I had some typical insominiantics last night and checked and saw your work-in-progress, Steven.

—Steven from five posts above/yesterday:

“This might take a while. Understanding it is easy, as is reading it, but translation always takes a while unless I do a super rough translation, which I don't want to do.”

We’re very lucky to have you.
I recognize blackoak and GaijinPunch and others have translated a ton of Japanese STG related articles/interviews/superplayers thoughts etc into English as well; yet another dimension of shmups.system11 awesomeness.

As an avid amateur linguist I dig it and and appreciate it very much.

Reading good translations is FUNdamental.

[Creamy Goodness]

Although it is not turning off autofire, I did better in Hishouzame with 12hz autofire rather than 30hz. The shot limit would create huge gaps in your bullets at 30hz. 12hz would allow for a constant flow of bullets.

[ZPScissors]

Although it is not turning off autofire, I did better in Hishouzame with 12hz autofire rather than 30hz. The shot limit would create huge gaps in your bullets at 30hz. 12hz would allow for a constant flow of bullets.

This is exactly why I play most Toaplan games with one slow and one fast autofire button (+ another no auto button in some cases)

[jehu]

Thanks so much for the translation, Steven. Very nice to have a document from early ‘92 to get a less speculative sense of what everyone was thinking.

Lot of potential interesting analysis here, but I’m particularly intrigued by Gun Frontier. I wonder if the game’s sharp rank increases with auto-fire was done as a kind of hastily added secondary enforcement mechanism to discourage autofire after intentionally de-implementing it from the game. I think the rank system itself might speak to a kind of developer anxiety about auto-reliant playstyles ‘damaging’ the game. I would have never guessed auto was a core part of the game’s design at some point.

The choice to penalize auto has really shaped the history of the game’s reception. Up until the 6.6hz autofire rank control, it seems like the game had a reputation of being absolutely brutal because everyone just defacto accepted the consequences of almost unrestrained autofire use. Now, especially with the ACA port, the clear can be made really manageable - have to learn gorge and tank factory strats, but it’s not too bad to 1CC. I’ve never cleared with manual fire only, but it might be worth a shot. (Same with K. Tiger, by the way. I’ve gotten a lot more competent at that game since the quoted post, and there’s only a few bosses I’m still uncomfortable with without auto. A future project for sure - still love every credit I put into that game.)

[PC Engine Fan X!]

At one local arcade hangout by the name of Cal's R-Cade, they had a Centuri/Konami Time Pilot cab that I had previously played stock without autofire upgrade back in 1984. Fast forward to 1985, tried the same Time Pilot cab and it had a note saying "Press down for continuous fire". Tried it out with the autofiire upgrade and it was quite a different game indeed. Intersting to learn that such an autofire hack/upgrade was available for the 1982 arcade game Time Pilot in 1985 -- that was the first time I tried an arcade shmup title with an autofire enhancement mod/upgrade installed by the arcade owner himself.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Steven]

Thanks everyone. I still hate some parts of it, but I'm too lazy to change it, so I probably won't unless someone tells me that something is completely wrong or knows the context of some of the stuff that I didn't. No clue what the hell is going on in Toaplan's answer to 5.

Although it is not turning off autofire, I did better in Hishouzame with 12hz autofire rather than 30hz. The shot limit would create huge gaps in your bullets at 30hz. 12hz would allow for a constant flow of bullets.

Try 5Hz + 30Hz or 6Hz + 30Hz, as 5 and 6 are the two best autofire speeds for the game for general use, but the best is manual + 30Hz. Sometimes the 5Hz or 6Hz just won't work, but since that's all you need to maintain for most of the game it's easy enough to just do manual fire.

Although it is not turning off autofire, I did better in Hishouzame with 12hz autofire rather than 30hz. The shot limit would create huge gaps in your bullets at 30hz. 12hz would allow for a constant flow of bullets.

This is exactly why I play most Toaplan games with one slow and one fast autofire button (+ another no auto button in some cases)

This is what I do on pretty much everything, mostly to not fuck my muscle memory if I go to a game center.

Every game center I have been to usually has the following configuration for auto

[regular non-auto shot] [bomb] [30Hz]
[game-specific auto]

so I use the same at home on the RAP N. I only have 3 buttons on the Astro and I have been told it's a pain to add more, but for now when I do use auto I am sacrificing the game-specific auto and only use the manual and occasional 30Hz for point-blanking.

[Rastan78]

Lot of potential interesting analysis here, but I’m particularly intrigued by Gun Frontier. I wonder if the game’s sharp rank increases with auto-fire was done as a kind of hastily added secondary enforcement mechanism to discourage autofire after intentionally de-implementing it from the game. I think the rank system itself might speak to a kind of developer anxiety about auto-reliant playstyles ‘damaging’ the game. I would have never guessed auto was a core part of the game’s design at some point.

That was actually addressed in a different interview:

As for the rank increase from autofire, that came from something the programmers had been struggling with; that is, how to create a game with a “relative” or dynamic difficulty. Preventing operators from installing autofire circuits was not our intention.

https://shmuplations.com/gunfrontier/

So.yeah it's all a bit confusing. I guess they wanted auto in then didn't want it and still tried to allow for a rank increase that would feel ok when auto was used? Later they say that they regret the resulting balance was more challenging than what they really wanted.

[Sumez]

I find it kinda interesting that one of the most frequent complaints I hear about Vimana is that it's way too easy with autofire, yet people never talk about how it plays without.

I've never played the game though, maybe it's still too easy without autofire. And it's definitely annoying if mashing faster is too big of an advantage to ignore.

[Steven]

I talked about Vimana without auto a few times... I guess I'll talk about it again.

People say Vimana is the easiest Toaplan game, but it isn't because Slap Fight is. Without auto Vimana is way harder than Slap Fight, but it's still pretty easy, and even with auto on Vimana I still think it's way harder than Slap Fight. Without auto, the player will probably use the charge shot a hell of a lot more just to avoid burning out.

I've said it before many times, but Vimana is a cool and well-designed game with creative bosses and one of the best soundtracks Toaplan ever made (it's REALLY REALLY GOOD), so it's worth playing just for that. The sound balance is quite poor, though, and the sound effects do an unfortunately good job of obscuring the music. It's still pretty easy for Toaplan, though, and some people might not like the relatively slow pacing, as it's not a very fast-moving game. It's also a very odd game in that it's one of only a handful of Toaplan games where there are no checkpoints when played in 1P mode, even on the Japanese version, which surprised me when I played it for the first time.

It's worth noting that the first time I played it was on PCB and without auto, so my initial impression of the game is not "lol broken game cuz autofire" but rather "holy fuck this game is awesome!". Really want to get the PCB soon.

[M.Knight]

I 1-ALLed Vimana some years ago without rapidfire ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1pLU-iwp5I ) because the cab it was on didn't have any, and from what I recall it was sorta enjoyable because the charge shot at least gave you something to do that's a bit more involving than either just holding the button or mashing the whole time. The game, like most Toaplan, is meh regardless, but since I value unique-ish tools like these, it made the experience fun enough for a 1-ALL especially since it's still not super hard either. And it was sorta close to what the experience must have been back then, in an arcade without tons of more exciting shmups on MAME/Steam/Dolphin/Duckstation/etc. one click away. And in that regard it was decent enough.

I wrote this back then :

As for Vimana, it's a Toaplan shmup that I discovered a few weeks ago when Coin-Op Table put it on their shmup cabinet. I am usually not a big fan of that kind of Toaplan shmups and find both Tatsujin games really unpleasant to play for example. However, this one, despite not being too different when it comes to level-design, has a shot mechanic that makes it worth playing.

Tapping the shot button generates a strong forward shot, while holding it quickly charges a spread shot that you unleash by letting go of the button. Some waves have popcorn enemies coming from both sides and getting the proper rhythm makes even the most boring waves kinda interesting to play, from a mechanical standpoint.

Apparently if you set up a very high-rate rapid fire, you can just use the forward shot for everything. In my case, not only the cabinet didn't have one, but the game would also lose all of its fun IMO. Vimana's relatively low level of difficulty also makes it more fun to not use rapid fire I think, because out of the 6 stages, the last one is the only one that feels like a constant test of reflexes and dodging skills. Most of the other ones are memo-based or not too challenging, with a few exceptions such as the fourth boss.

Oh yeah the music is fun even if it's ruined by arcade dev loud-ass SFX fetishism, and the stage1 remix ( https://downloads.khinsider.com/game-so ... A%2529.mp3 ) is excellent.