Better without Autofire

[Lander]

The problem with this theory is that it's calling the devs incompetent - they design their game after this feature (extra AF button), but then they realize that it makes of it a way too easy challenge for the operators' demands so, instead of balancing the game's difficulty properly, they choose to just hide the feature which even involves variations in the control panel? In the hope that only PCB collectors find out their actual intent?

The difference between the mash-fire and programmed auto rates isn't so vast as to be obviously game-breaking, so that seems like a far-fetched extrapolation when there's already a four-way difficulty selector for operators to control game-internal balance.

My logic begins and ends at game-external balance - tiring players' fingers with manual fire so the probability of a credit-shortening mistake goes up. If operators make the rules, then hell yeah it's getting turned off, but they don't speak for the designer who decided it should be an option.

Isn't this a more logical hypothesis?

"there you have the feature in the case you don't want your buttons to wear out prematurely or if you get too many complaints from dedicated customers so that you don't need to invest in an external circuit, but know that the game's not about that"

I find it plausible as a device to avoid wear, tempt players back after the cab declines in profit, or to save on custom circuitry, but those are all business concerns separate from gameplay design intent, and don't imply the bolded.

I don't think projecting a for / against position onto the developer holds water if all the reasons to do so are speculative or subjective; if it were a given one way or the other, there would be no contention to begin with.

Sure thing. We do also have the instruction cards (and even the operator manual, for even more absoluteness) which says "2 buttons-only", though.

Documentation still falls under lowest-common-denominator, since the third button is optional. And arcade engrish being what it was, "2 buttons-only" could easily be interpreted as "only 2 required" vs "only 2 used".
Either way, the BUTTON C [NO FUNCTION / FULL-AUTO] entry built into the service menu makes it pretty explicit that a third button can be fitted. That's as absolute as you can get, since - on top of directly feeding into the game logic - it'll still be there after the paraphenalia is lost or discarded.

Notice that the discussion about DDP is a digression - it's an odd case which doesn't illustrate the original argument about calling the usage of external AF "cheating", which is what BareKnuckleRoo was actually discussing there. I think it's quite clear at this point what would be my own definition of "serious player", but it wasn't me the one who used the term here.

What I'm getting at is that we don't have a first-class source of what the official rules are - only reasoned speculation, which is by definition unofficial. Ergo, using it to predicate what constitutes a serious player is just a variant on the moot-by-default No True Shmupper argument.

Though I do agree the AF-optional shmups are an interesting case, lying in a grey zone between clear cut old-school manual fire games and new-school auto-as-standard ones. Personally - prior argumentation aside - I think Cave crossed the Dakka line on day one, since all their shot types are screen-fillers that bear little resemblance to the pinpoint-and-shoot of something like Slap Fight.

[Rastan78]

Here's an interesting little oddity. This is an arcade autofire circuit available in the early 90s. 18000 yen? Not exactly cheap.

[Steven]

I forgot about this thread.

I talked to the owner of Mikado about this the other day after I met him at the Raiden live and he said that external autofire devices began appearing in arcades in 1988. I forget what game he said this was typically seen installed on, but he did say that it was relatively uncommon to see Tatsujin with external auto for a while.

[Sloppy_J]

I feel like it’s cheating when the autofire spits out bullets at rates that are humanly impossible. It definitely is the case for the Gradius games.

[Rastan78]

@Steven, yeah this is a post of mine from earlier in the thread. I also came across info that 1988 is when autofire began in arcades. With the Mikado owner backing that up as well I'm convinced on that date for sure. Thanks for the info.

Here's an interesting quote from Seibu staff circa 1992:

It is the player who plays the game and decides whether the game is fun or not.
　Therefore, it is the player who decides whether or not the game will be fun with the rapid-fire device, and it is the store that decides whether or not it should be installed.
　As a manufacturer, the most important thing is that the games we make are fun to play, so as long as there are no particular problems, we don't question the pros and cons of rapid-fire devices.

Source: http://rapidturbo2000.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-161.html

Bassa-Bassa, didn't DDP add that feature as an optional dip switch in 1997?

According to another article referenced at that site the craze for modifying panels to have auto circuits began around 1988 at the time of games like Image Fight and K Tiger and gradually grew from there.

Apparently synchronized autofire began in 1991 (where the circuit using the V sync signal to match the actual game refresh ON/OFF every other frame rather than blindly pumping out 30hz.)

The game Bloxeed (tetris-like Sega game from the late 80s) had a lot to do with popularizing the circuits as you could get much higher scores with auto than without.

There's a section (column at bottom of pg.83) in the 1994 Darius Gaiden official guidebook that explains the significance of using synchronized auto.

Spoiler

Edit: better detail

Spoiler

[Rastan78]

https://youtu.be/lUqgjRhX8Hc

Oh man. What the fuck? This was actually a thing hori made to vibrate your finger to do autofire on any button. Imagine rolling up to the arcade with this thing lol

And let's not get into what else it oucld be used for.

BTW I only watched a few seconds of the vid. Randomly skip ahead to see it in action.

[BIL]

Jesus. More like PerineumBorg.

[Rastan78]

Jesus. More like PerineumBorg.

They say if you use your left hand it feels like somebody else is doing it.

[Steven]

Hori makes some weird shit sometimes, but I think this might be the strangest thing I have ever seen from them.

[Lander]

Something about it takes me back to the days of those giant clip-on magnifying lenses, bendy lights, and power armor tuff cases you could buy to augment the Game Boy and other handhelds of its time.
A workaround at best, but one executed with serious enthusiasm

[Rastan78]

If you're going to rock the Periborg you might as well get a 3D Gaming Neckset to go with it.

https://stores.horiusa.com/3d-surround- ... -xbox-one/

I like the way they allowed for room for a substantial neckbeard to grow unfettered in the front.

[Dumple]

Are there any games that you think are best played without (external) autofire? Why? In what way exactly does the gameplay experience improve?

What constitutes better or worse in this case is entirely subjective. But if you could be descriptive about what, in your experience, improves without autofire - I'd be very appreciative. The point of this topic is not to denigrate anyone who chooses to use autofire, but to highlight games that are particularly enjoyable with it turned off.

I mostly play without autofire. It's partly out of habit at this point. I like playing and clearing games just as they were when they were released, and as they existed in most (American) arcades. I've never seen an arcade cabinet with external autofire. I don't doubt they exist, and I think that's a totally valid way to play (and better ergonomics) - but that's not part of my tradition or my arcade nostalgia. The extra feeling of mashing the fire button - especially at a boss battle or other key point - is part of the whole experience for me. Saving your arm strength for the boss, feeling your pulse rate increase as you mash, it's a whole vibe.

The infamous STG wiki difficulty list includes notes for a lot of games that the difficulty is "+X without autofire" or "-X with autofire", which I think implies that even for the Japanese-speaking shmup community where autofire is very common, maybe even standard, no-autofire is also seen as a valid way to play. For me it's a little like speedrunning, where "Any% means any%" any glitches are fair game for an any% speedrun. But a lot of games will track leaderboards for other categories where certain glitches are restricted or where you must do (or must not do) certain things, as a way to show off more of the game or just have a different experience. I think having unrestricted autofire be the default for leaderboards is fine; I think having a separate leaderboard for no-autofire (or limited-frequency autofire) is heckin' valid too. (This might be contentious in part because when there are more games than active players, diluting the competition by having more leaderboards per game doesn't always feel great. A lot of people would rather aim to be 1st place out of 100 scores than aim to be 1st place out of 3)

Anyway, some particular games where I enjoy no-autofire are Vimana or Darius Gaiden or Fire Barrel, where you miss out on seeing some boss or enemy patterns if autofire sweps the screen clean too quickly.

I've made exceptions and used autofire for some games - G.Darius and Eight Forces and Dragon Spirit - that I found unreasonably difficult or too physically demanding with just mashing. The Great Ragtime Show is another one where the difference between autofire (or near-superhuman mashing) and normal play is drastically different; if I go back to that and aim for a 1cc I'll use autofire.

[blazinglazers69]

2 on the genesis in particular--Phelios and Fire Shark.

With Phelios you have a charge attack that's way more powerful that the rapid fire, so the game is literally designed around aiming in a way that feels really good--almost a bit like Galaga. I did assign an autofire button since I don't like mashing, but it's mostly only useful for popcorn enemies and 1 or 2 bosses.

The red fire attack in Fire Shark is interesting. It basically makes an outward breast stroke motion. The auto fire makes this motion fairly slow whereas mashing it basically treats it like an OP spread shot. This gives it a lot of versatility where you use the slow autofire for sections where you're being flanked by kamikaze jets at the back and sides, and mash it for when you're being assaulted with tons of tanks and whatnot from the front.

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

it's a tool-assisted handicap, so i think the fact tHat my friend juno needz tO use external autofire is acceptable because he hAs a hand injury. however, when i see people using it and dOn't have any kind of hand disability sHit, then it's the equivalent of some1 w/o a handicap permit parking in a hAndicap spot. so it's chEating in most circumstances unless yOu're like...uH...usin' it for level practice or w/e

mashing is fun. yOu should build up tHat endurance skill because it's way mOre rewarding than holding dOwn a button and effortlessly cheesin' a lotta stuff like a weenie. oH no! carpal tunnel even thOugh there's hand excercises fOr it tHat you can do in order tO prevent it by only using just a couple minutes a day like i am right now while writing out this pOst! aaaaahhhhhh!!! repetitive strain injury!!! wait, i can get it frOm even just tapping the d-pad arOund too???? nO way, tHat's some fukken nonsense, and it can only happen w/ mashing whiCh i'll blast some mental gymnasticz abOut due tO my existential NEED to cOntinue rationalizing out a justification for me cheating w/ external autofire because i know i'm really actually doing a tOol-assisted run!! i gotta even argue tHat mashing isn't a skill and cOntradict myself instantly by calling it a test of torturous endurance XoX
i never get sOre from mashing nOwadayz, especially w/ the hand exercises. i can mash all day w/ my girly little hAndz, man
hell, i'm even at risk fOr a repetitive strain injury just frOm playing keyz on the synthesizer, and my best friend has tO do a lotta hand exercises 'n stuff since he plAyz complicated spanish classical guitar and john fahey sHit, so as a musician, the hand maintenance ain't really all tHat new to me or my musician palz
also, if a rate of fire is set tO something humanly possible, it's still nOt accurate to human perfOrmance w/ mashing because no one is able to alwayz consistently maintain tHat same rate during a run. it's gOnna fluctuate, especially depending on the level design or bullet patternz or w/e dumbass sHit comin' your way

oH yeah, the argument tHat the japanese use autofire, so it's fine is a dumbsHit argument. tHat's literally just an appeal to authority + i've even seen them using auto fOr beat 'em upz, which is fukken pointless :/

(also, to clarify: in-game autofire is fine for shmupz tHat never had an original release w/o the feature because it is designed w/ it more in mind, but i realized 1 of the reasOnz i didn't like raiden when i went thrOugh it was because i played the psx version and used the autofire feature, and it stripped away a lot of the fun since tHat game wasn't previously designed w/ tHat feature in mind, so when i go back to it and get a 2-ALL, i'll definitely nOt be using any autofire nonsense.)

so fukken like, w/ tHat all being said while avoiding to gO too deeply into the autofire/mashing debate bullsHit (well, i guess i did a lil bit, so sorry about tHat, but the external autofire stuff shOuldn't even be an issue and annoyz the living heCk outta me if it isn't obvious from the sHit i spouted on about), i can give an inverse answer and say which shmup is better w/ autofire 'cause i'm alwayz willing to make an exception for same(x3) 'cause even though tHat game is fun, it is infamous for bEing designed like dog sHit. like, from wHat i understand, the dudes at tOaplan could never agree on a damn thing during its development

[blazinglazers69]

I actually throw away a quarter every time I start or use a continue in a shmup. Gotta be authentic.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Masterpiece.

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

I actually throw away a quarter every time I start or use a continue in a shmup. Gotta be authentic.

i fukken eat the fuCkerz

Masterpiece.

:>

[Rastan78]

oH yeah, the argument tHat the japanese use autofire, so it's fine is a dumbsHit argument. tHat's literally just an appeal to authority + i've even seen them using auto fOr beat 'em upz, which is fukken pointless :/

Sometimes autofire can be used for more than just avoiding mashing. For example Final Fight has a technique called "alchemy." Doing a certain input with precise timing after destroying a garbage can etc. will always produce a high pt. gold bar item. Japanese players will add autofire to the attack button as well as one or more directional buttons aka "lever fire."

I can see the appeal playing without auto has for some players. Personally I use auto and it has nothing to do with worrying about injury. That said I could never fault someone's choice to try and avoid repetitive stress. You get one set of hands for life and there's a lot more to life than old video gsmes.

Check this clip. All due respect to Infiltration, but this is completely idiotic:
https://youtu.be/e0gW6ynZ_Ys

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

Sometimes autofire can be used for more than just avoiding mashing. For example Final Fight has a technique called "alchemy." Doing a certain input with precise timing after destroying a garbage can etc. will always produce a high pt. gold bar item. Japanese players will add autofire to the attack button as well as one or more directional buttons aka "lever fire."

so, wHat'z the necessity for auto? tHat actually just soundz like an exploit.
i know galedog, the guy whO invented the streets of rage 2 speedrun, and he thinkz playing beat 'em upz w/ auto is a load of sHit. i mean, yOu're falling into the whole appeal to authority thing. (and are the japanese really even an authority tO begin w/? they're just a bunch of nerdz who play games like people in the west)
if there's an authority here, it is the rUles of the game.

[Personally I use auto and it has nothing to do with worrying about injury.

sO wHat'z your reason?

oH yeah, the argument tHat the japanese use autofire, so it's fine is a dumbsHit argument. tHat's literally just an appeal to authority + i've even seen them using auto fOr beat 'em upz, which is fukken pointless :/

that said I could never fault someone's choice to try and avoid repetitive stress. You get one set of hands for life and there's a lot more to life than old video gsmes.

i already went over tHat w/ hand exercises. again as mentiOned, i do those anyway since i'm a musician and it is advisable for musicians to do them as well since any repetitive action can put you at risk. alsO as mentioned, the d-pad can be a factor tHat can put you at risk. just plAying games can put yOu at risk, dude
there's nO good argument in favor of autofire because it's gibberish

Check this clip. All due respect to Infiltration, but this is completely idiotic:
https://youtu.be/e0gW6ynZ_Ys

so his hand hUrt? oH. uH, k. tHat's why hand exercises are important whether yOu are a gamer or a musician or both

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Those who believe autofire is an unfair advantage should realize that these days, one can adjust the frequency of the autofire, easily simulating perfectly feasible button mashing, without straining yourself.

So, sure. If you go and abuse it as much as possible, some games get fucked.
But if you know what you're doing, you can have the intended experience, no matter what, without the harmful effects.

But hey, this has all been said already ;p

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

Those who believe autofire is an unfair advantage should realize that these days, one can adjust the frequency of the autofire, easily simulating perfectly feasible button mashing, without straining yourself.

already went over this lol

"if a rate of fire is set tO something humanly possible, it's still nOt accurate to human perfOrmance w/ mashing because no one is able to alwayz consistently maintain tHat same rate during a run. it's gOnna fluctuate, especially depending on the level design or bullet patternz or w/e dumbass sHit comin' your way"

+ yOu aren't gonna strain yourself if you aren't lazy and take a couple minutes a day to do some hand exercises

yet to see a single new "argument" for auto's defense

[jehu]

Now I wear a hair shirt when I play on my atomis wave arcade cabinet and self-flagellate every time I do not beat my personal best in the hotdog storm game cuz I'll never weather that storm these fucking carpet tunnel hands and I will never weather that damn hotdog storm

[Rastan78]

Sometimes autofire can be used for more than just avoiding mashing. For example Final Fight has a technique called "alchemy." Doing a certain input with precise timing after destroying a garbage can etc. will always produce a high pt. gold bar item. Japanese players will add autofire to the attack button as well as one or more directional buttons aka "lever fire."

so, wHat'z the necessity for auto?
i know galedog, the guy whO invented the streets of rage 2 speedrun, and he thinkz playing beat 'em upz w/ auto is a load of sHit. i mean, yOu're falling into the whole appeal to authority thing. (and are they really even an authority tO begin w/? they're just a bunch of nerdz who play games like people in the west)

TBH I don't understand the exact method. I think it's different for Cody also. Basically for example, say you throw an enemy at a garbage can then hold the correct button and/or lever autofire input and you will consistently produce gold bars. It's an exploit used to stabilize high scoring attempts not only a substitute for button mashing.

The official Japanese rankings for that game collected scores for both auto on and off just like with many older games like Raiden etc. So the argument around appeal to authority is pretty pointless in that case.

@brain temple, I was looking at your G Darius no auto clear and the description where you talked about how tough the counters are. If you want to counter beam some bosses by mashing you have to wait for a 2nd or 3rd cycle. Some of the later ones can be physically impossible to do, like 16hz mashing almost perfectly consistent, on the first time they fire a beam. The dev had the concept that the bosses would get tired so the mashing rates required to counter decrease the longer the fights go on. Sorry tho I couldn't tell you the exact details as far as how much they power down on each boss or cycle, but something worth experimenting with for no auto runs.

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

TBH I don't understand the exact method. I think it's different for Cody also. Basically for example, say you throw an enemy at a garbage can then hold the correct button and/or lever autofire input and you will consistently produce gold bars. It's an exploit used to stabilize high scoring attempts not only a substitute for button mashing.

i mean, like, if this can only be attempted w/ autofire, then it just soundz like an exploit. these kindz of thingz are interesting, but i don't see how it wOuld make a case for auto to be appropriate.

The official Japanese rankings for that game collected scores for both auto on and off just like with many older games like Raiden etc. So the argument around appeal to authority is pretty pointless in that case.

yeah, they're categorized differently, and the fact tHat they are meanz tHat there's a significant difference between auto and mashing, sO i don't see a justification for it.

I was looking at your G Darius no auto clear and the description where you talked about how tough the counters are. If you want to counter beam some bosses by mashing you have to wait for a 2nd or 3rd cycle. Some of the later ones can be physically impossible to do, like 16hz mashing almost perfectly consistent, on the first time they fire a beam. The dev had the concept that the bosses would get tired so the mashing rates required to counter decrease the longer the fights go on. Sorry tho I couldn't tell you the exact details as far as how much they power down on each boss or cycle, but something worth experimenting with for no auto runs.

interesting. tHankz, i cOuld check into tHat later and experiment around whenever i decide to do another rOute, although i killed some of the fuCkerz before they even cycled (third boss didn't even have a chance to thrOw out his laser), so it soundz like it'd take longer if tHat'z how the laserz are designed. were they nOt expected to be taken down around the time of their first cycle? =o

------------------------------------

Now I wear a hair shirt when I play on my atomis wave arcade cabinet and self-flagellate every time I do not beat my personal best in the hotdog storm game cuz I'll never weather that storm these fucking carpet tunnel hands and I will never weather that damn hotdog storm

idkwtf yOu are saying, but if you aren't in a hotdog outfit while playing hotdog storm, then yOu aren't playin' hotdog storm
<-- a man in a hotdog outfit prepAring to play hotdog storm

[pulsemod]

first post clarifies this isn't an argument topic, so let's leave that behind. if you don't ever use autofire then there's not much more to say than you think it's all more fun without.

I can't think of much for myself where I don't use autofire at all. even a game like hishouzame where fast autofire is detrimental, I find it more enjoyable to have my main shot button mapped to a slow (5Hz? 7Hz?) autofire because it affords the ability to hit the same button faster or release it when need be but hold it down when it doesn't really matter. especially when playing a game on a gamepad, I want to be as comfy as possible with controls.

there are some cases like fantasy zone 1 where fast autofire definitely makes the game leagues easier to the point where I feel a little bad, but I don't really have as much fun with it using manual fire...

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

first post clarifies this isn't an argument topic, so let's leave that behind. if you don't ever use autofire then there's not much more to say than you think it's all more fun without.

since it is by definition cheating, i clarified my stance in order to give an inverse answer for which shmup i'm willing to give an exception fOr since i would learn same(x3) w/ auto

[Lethe]

I think there's a very strong case for tapping as a tactile mnemonic, similar to audiovisual cuing, that heightens the senses and immersion. I really like this in games where your shot limit is a big power limiter (Raiden) as opposed to just the rate (Darius).

Unfortunately Raiden in particular is emblematic of the dumb moron shit sponge boss problem, where you have to sit at the bottom tapping for 2 minutes straight doing the same pattern over and over. The tapping isn't contributing to the game at that point; it's not physically stimulating, it's the opposite i.e. fucking boring. So I might as well use human-grade autofire and save the effort.
Gun.Smoke is one of the better games I've played re: this. I did end up playing it with auto when I went for a 1CC but I'm very tempted to do without (it was mostly useful for being lazy with barrels).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Those who believe autofire is an unfair advantage should realize that these days, one can adjust the frequency of the autofire, easily simulating perfectly feasible button mashing, without straining yourself.

So, sure. If you go and abuse it as much as possible, some games get fucked.
But if you know what you're doing, you can have the intended experience, no matter what, without the harmful effects.

This. In a game that rewards pressing the same button at a high rate of speed at a consistent pace non-stop, autofire is a means of risk management to minimize the chance of an unnecessary injury. Also who the hell want to pilot a spaceship that's stuck with a semi-auto firing mechanism, talk about the future being lame as all hell, lol

+ yOu aren't gonna strain yourself if you aren't lazy and take a couple minutes a day to do some hand exercises

To answer the topic, the only shmups that I think are better without autofire are probably the Space Invader style ones where you're at a fixed distance away and have a 1 or 2 shot limit when firing, making it more about accuracy rather than keeping up repetitive firing. In shmups with generally modest autofire requirements like Giga Wing, the mashing doesn't add a meaningful element and removing it (as the Dreamcast port does for instance) allows the player to maximize focus on the game's bullet patterns and scoring systems.

[BrainΦΠΦTemple]

+ yOu aren't gonna strain yourself if you aren't lazy and take a couple minutes a day to do some hand exercises

all i see from yOu doing tHat is "i can't mAsh."
so, if yOu have nothing to say, please do not be provoking. tHank you

[BareKnuckleRoo]

all i see from yOu doing tHat is "i can't mAsh."

Ahem.

But you'll have to forgive me if I have a full time career and a family to support and that ends up being a slight factor in me not wanting to risk an unnecessary injury to a fairly important appendage that would negatively impact my ability to earn an income.

so, if yOu have nothing to say, please do not be provoking.

I fail to see how I could ever possibly be more provocative than someone who has openly mocked the idea of people not wanting to injure themselves playing videogames. Masochism isn't a virtue.