What are some good horizontal shmups for practice?

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I wanted to avoid this subject, but now that it's been touched on, I suppose I can give my own comment on it, or at least the TLDR version of it.

Don't overanalyze gameplay. There's no real point in classifying specific parts of shmups (or parts of shmup gameplay, i guess) as "skills".

And also...and this one coming from me personally...focus on having fun. Practice or whatever is secondary. As long as you're enjoying yourself, you're doing good. Skills will increase on their own as you keep playing, and trying to optimize the rate of that is counterintuitive.

[sunnshiner]

I find the Gradius games (Parodius and Gaiden included) easier to manage from a rank POV if you avoid powering up with a laser, stick to the plain ol' gun you start with but add an option (or two) and keep a shield on standby in case you get hit and lose your current shield. I really struggled with Gaiden until I avoided the laser.

+1 on the 'having fun' thing too, I sacked Jamestown+ off at level 5 because fuck those walls.

edit- Gradius III on the SNES is very good fun.

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

"Walls"
I doubt the main reason you are running into walls is because you lack the input precision to avoid walls. Probably the screen is getting messy with enemies and bullets and that's when it gets hard to focus and an untimely wall splat occurs. Look back at a section and think could I have memorized those enemies and point blanked them before they caused trouble? Should I lurk behind the wall and use it as cover? Should I pass it before or after x, y or z enemy wave? Ask those kinds of questions instead of how do I Git Gud at not smacking walls?

Walls are actually one of my favourite parts of horizontal scrollers. Particulaly on older games where you might have quite a large hitbox and using them as cover can be quite important. I haven't thought about it before, but in some ways I suppose horizontal scrollers sit somewhere between a vertical shmup and a run and gun.

While we’re discussing the original Gradius, I second the recommendation of the PCE port, but I’d also like to recommend the C64 version (called Nemesis in some regions), done by none other than Konami themselves. Sadly, it lacks music and has very blocky graphics to cram everything into a single load, but it’s a solid port that’s not too difficult and it even features the bonus level from the PCE version.

I'm a big C64 fan and I played this game a lot when I didn't have any other option, but in my opinion there are definitely much better ports, as well as better shmups on the C64. Also, it carries Konami branding, but it wasn't produced by Konami in Japan or anything. These games were made under license in the west. It's basically the same as how US Gold used to splash Sega and Capcom over their games. I have a feeling it was done by Imagine software, but I may be wrong. It was coded by the same person who produced the C64 version of Shinobi.

[sunnshiner]

I have no idea if you're able to play Akai Katana Shin/Slash (xb360 and it runs in Xenia ok) but that's fun too.

[Herr Schatten]

there are definitely much better ports, as well as better shmups on the C64.

No objection. I was solely focusing on the aspect of accessibility to lesser skilled players, though, and this is most likely the easiest version of Gradius around.

Also, it carries Konami branding, but it wasn't produced by Konami in Japan or anything. These games were made under license in the west. It's basically the same as how US Gold used to splash Sega and Capcom over their games. I have a feeling it was done by Imagine software, but I may be wrong. It was coded by the same person who produced the C64 version of Shinobi.

Here I disagree. I’m aware that this version hasn’t been coded in Japan, but I still like to think that Konami acting as the publisher directly instead of just selling the rights does make a difference in terms of quality assurance. Grouping this pretty good effort with the lazy cash grabs U.S.Gold used to release does not seem fair to me.

I didn’t know that the same coder did the Shinobi port, but it makes sense, as that one is also very good and retains much of what makes the arcade original enjoyable.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Does the auto mode in the Parodius games sets the rank lower as well (against manual mode)? I never bothered with auto but I heard that could be a mistake at least for Sexy?

[Starfighter]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, they've helped me adjust my mindset a bit!

Don't overanalyze gameplay. There's no real point in classifying specific parts of shmups (or parts of shmup gameplay, i guess) as "skills".
And also...and this one coming from me personally...focus on having fun. Practice or whatever is secondary. As long as you're enjoying yourself, you're doing good. Skills will increase on their own as you keep playing, and trying to optimize the rate of that is counterintuitive.

+1 on the 'having fun' thing too, I sacked Jamestown+ off at level 5 because fuck those walls.

Well, I've tried to just have fun, that's pretty much my main approach for my whole gaming journey in general... But I honestly haven't had much fun with any horizontal shmup in my life, the closest being "ok, I think I can beat this, at least it's nice with another 1CC!". And I kind of want to understand why. Is it simply taste? I mean many times the games are so similar, but I still can't enjoy one of them because it's horizontal. It's like two shades of a color where I love one and think the other one is ugly. And this is perhaps my design studies brain applying the wrong reasoning here, but I know that all shades of color can be really nice if they just appear in the right context.

I've never really understood why people dismiss horizontal games immediately given there's plenty of vertical games with patterns where bullets come at you sideways. There's no real difference in reading the bullets with attacks where the shots come at you horizontally I think, and I don't think the shots in bullet hell horis "read" any differently... I've always thought it's more a case of you're psyching yourself out, but that's just me.

Bullets coming sideways in vertical shmups is in 9 out of 10 times the reason I die, hehe. That's pretty much the reason I still haven't beaten Espgaluda because of the last boss pattern. I remember I've beaten some horizontal shmups by putting the screen in TATE, changed the controls to match and then played it as if it was a vertical one - this has actually helped (I instantly improved) but as you can imagine it's... let's say 'bothersome' in many cases.

I think you might want to take another look at your approach here. I don't see the things you listed as major skills you need to focus on. They're sort of abstract and hard to practice specifically. Since you have already 1CC'd a few horis you likely have enough skill in those areas to 1cc many others.

The problem you run into is likely more about routing and memorization. If you have good routes down either by trial and error or watching replays and commit them to muscle memory the other problems you talk about will melt away.

Hm... It sounds like you're right! Perhaps the problem is routing and memorization. Then I think the games I'm looking for should be ones with heavy focus on routing and memorization, perhaps with interesting requirements or maybe forgiving nature? This is more of a reflection of how I tend to work as a person, when I have trouble with something I need to "understand" it in more ways and double down on it for a while.

I think the whole good games for beginners thing in shmups is massively overemphasized. For example there aren't fighting games for beginners there are just fighting games. They all have a more or less infinite skill ceiling at the high levels of play.

I understand! And also please note I never said "good for beginners". I'm more interested in games that I can learn from, but maybe there isn't such a thing in particular? I mean, if I'm having a hard time with combos in fighting games then I'd probably suggest Killer Instinct as a practice game since it's heavy on the combos, and if I'm having trouble with juggling then I bet a Tekken game would let me practice that intensely, and so on. But maybe I still should just go with something that's "just fun" (even if I've yet to find one of those among the horis).

Most important thing is that you find a game you really like or even love. Then stick with it and set incremental goals within the same game. Really hunkering down with one game at a time and understanding the ins and outs will see you improve.

Yeah... yeah, you're probably right! Let's hope I find one! I'm going to start with checking out the ones people have suggested in this thread as many of them sound like I should like them!

[Lethe]

I don't have any game suggestions, so this'll be an unhelpful vaguely topical post.

I've never really understood why people dismiss horizontal games immediately given there's plenty of vertical games with patterns where bullets come at you sideways. There's no real difference in reading the bullets with attacks where the shots come at you horizontally I think, and I don't think the shots in bullet hell horis "read" any differently... I've always thought it's more a case of you're psyching yourself out, but that's just me.

The difference is at least as real as it isn't real. I love sideways patterns in verticals and they're one of the things I least worry about. But if you take the Neon Light Illusion opener for instance, I have to move carefully to avoid it; flip the screen 90 degrees, and suddenly it's brainless easy and I can do whatever I want. It's even more obvious in something like Progear. Whatever the reason is, the orientation definitely messes with my pattern recognition.

The relationship between the "skills" that go into playing is labyrinthine and individualistic. For me personally, everything is "enigmatic" as Rastan put it. Any amount of routing ability or discipline I have is an extension of my confidence in gorilla yomi play - and my ability at that is still kinda shit on an objective level, and could still grow further before I'm forced to shift gears to improve. I can't imagine routing a game without reasonable odds of playing it by the seat of my pants. If I have the problem commented on above and BKR doesn't, maybe it's because my foundational bedrock is in this instinctive type of play and his isn't. We may have arrived at a comparable point through totally different means.

Ultimately, it's the act of trying that makes you better at planning and executing what's necessary to succeed, and getting better at that thing will simplify the process of learning other things (and that goes between games, too). So don't worry about "skills", and don't force yourself to play stuff you don't like. All you can do is what one always does: set a goal and apply yourself.

[To Far Away Times]

Completely agree on the bullet tracking in Hori's. It is much more natural to track bullets vertically. But, that doesn't mean hori's are bad or inferior. Most hori's drop the bullet speed to compensate. Hori's can lean into their strengths like walls and mazes to create interesting challenges. In verts you dodge, in hori's you navigate.

Fast bullet hori games like Sengoku Blade are pretty much unplayable to me though. Just total guessing on what dodges are safe and what aren't.

[Rastan78]

Yeah I think it takes more time to adjust to dodging in horis. Also it's probably easier to gauge where your hit box is in verts. Like your ship is vertically symmetrical so where the center is is kinda obvious. In a hori your ship is likely narrow and tapered on one side, wider on the other. Yet your hitbox is square or rectangular and not necessarily in the middle.

Probably there's a good reason why the most successful hori games like Gradius, Darius, R-Type etc all have mechanics like the shield or force pod that allow you to mitigate getting tagged by bullets. These same mechanics could be totally OP in a vertical shmup.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

If I have the problem commented on above and BKR doesn't, maybe it's because my foundational bedrock is in this instinctive type of play and his isn't. We may have arrived at a comparable point through totally different means.

It's possible. My earliest shmups were largely horis, including my first bullet hell/small hitbox shmup, Gradius V (it's largely environmental hazards, but at higher loops/difficulties it does get pretty dense, and knowing how to visualize where your tiny hitbox is helps). I also played a ton of Progear as one of my early CAVE shmup experiences, so I guess I never realized bullet hell horis were such a polarizing thing until much later.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I find that super fast bullets are what's harder to deal with in horis, whereas the kind of patterns most people ascosciate with bullet hell are pretty equivalent in both horis and verts.

Relevantly, I haven't seen that many hori shmups with super fast bullets.

[To Far Away Times]

I'm not really big on bullet hell hori's, but I can make exceptions. Deathsmiles and Akai Katana are both cool.

Progear feels like a vert turned on it's side, if that makes any sense. Deathsmiles (with the 2 sided shooting mechanic) and Akai Katana Slash (with the Sword mechanic) feel a bit more like hori's. But I really like to navigate environments in Horis. Games like Darius, R-Type, etc.