Radiant Silvergun for Switch AVAILABLE TODAY

[Nugs]

Grabbed it last night as I've never played it before.
First impressions are not great. Not sure if I don't get it or if it's just not my jam.

[Jonpachi]

Down now too on Japanese eshop…

[Sloppy_J]

This is a game where lag really does make a big difference. The pace is slow and the dodging with the later bosses is intense. Hope they got it right because more people need to experience this truly wonderful game.

[subcons]

This is a game where lag really does make a big difference. The pace is slow and the dodging with the later bosses is intense. Hope they got it right because more people need to experience this truly wonderful game.

They didn’t according to Mark’s latest video. 5 frames, so the same as the 360 port via BC on Xbox One. Decent for using stage select in handheld mode, but best to play on 360 for the extra features if you have one.

Maybe they can work some magic on it. Here’s to hoping it’s improved once it gets put back up on the eShop.

[Sima Tuna]

So it's pretty much what I expected for a normal port, but far short of the quality for a Live Wire port.

The xbox 360 version is 4 frames and this is the same version adapted to switch. Switch, in general, adds about a frame of lag to any normal porting job unless the team engage some black magic hax to fix it. So a frame from 4 frames is 5 frames, obv. Which is what you end up with. As Mark said in his video, running the xbox 360 port in backwards compatibility on XBONER adds an additional frame of lag, putting that port at 5 frames too.

Unless the game has reduced lag after Live Wire relist it (anything is possible, I suppose,) the current build of the game seems to be comparable with XBONER backwards-compatibility using the old port.

I generally don't notice lag of 5ish frames or below, because I'm a scrub who sucks at shmups either way. I start to notice lag above 5 frames. So this amount of lag is really on the borderline for me. It's a moot point right now anyway, since I didn't buy the game during the brief window it was available.

[Steven]

Is there a point in buying this if I already have the Saturn version other than handheld mode?

The higher resolution assets? Only if you don't have an RGB CRT, though - I always thought the game looks way better in its original form, the remade graphics never were even 720p-compliant to begin with and neither got an actual 4:3 mode for a VGA monitor.

I have both a YCbCr CRT and the Saturn HD Retrovision stuff and also a New Astro City that I eventually want to find a way to connect my Saturn, Mega Drive, etc., to, but I honestly think the new graphics look way worse than the original ST-V/Saturn graphics. That said,

Practice/Training options

Yeah, that might actually be worth it. This game is a slog as it is, at least in Saturn mode, so having training features to practice more efficiently is nice.

[DenimDemon]

It’s really cool grinding story mode while portable. Easy/Story Mode/Portable/Headphones.

[ben.shinobi]

Mark lag tested this for his review and this is what he came up with.
Saturn: 3 frames
X360: 4 frames
Xbox One: 5 frames

He's wrong, there is much more than 1 frame of input lag between the STV/Saturn (same on both) and X360.
For me there are 2 or 3 frames of difference but not 1.
Never forget that the way to calculate input frame delay on console is not accurate. It's much more accurate on emulation.
I play regularly on retroarch (not for Silvergun) and I know perfectly what 3 frames of input lag means (and it's easy to fix it with the latency option).
I don't doubt that his calculations about the the saturn input delay give him 3 frames, but in this case, the method should be reviewed...
I have +5000hrs of practice on saturn/STV, and you can trust me, response time is perfect !!

[pja]

RSG (STV version) is supported in MAME isn't it? How is the lag in that version?

I know this isn't exactly answering your question, but STV emulation in MAME wasn't the greatest last time I checked, it didn't even run full speed for me.
If you want to go emulation route I really would rather recommend Mednafen - it has some lag but I think in this game lag matters less than in most of other shmups, since it's like 90% planning and 10% reactions, I found it perfectly playable (but I don't chase very high scores )
Very recently, Mednafen unstable even added STV emulation, but I didn't test it (you could emulate Saturn instead of course).

This is a game where lag really does make a big difference. The pace is slow and the dodging with the later bosses is intense. Hope they got it right because more people need to experience this truly wonderful game.

... I find it interesting that your opinion of this is the exact opposite of mine. For me slow pace means that a good plan is way more important than reflexes, barely anything in this game happens too fast to react to.

[DenimDemon]

They are on the sound issues.

https://twitter.com/LiveWire_pr/status/ ... sO_8_jw55g

[Bassa-Bassa]

This is a game where lag really does make a big difference. The pace is slow and the dodging with the later bosses is intense. Hope they got it right because more people need to experience this truly wonderful game.

... I find it interesting that your opinion of this is the exact opposite of mine. For me slow pace means that a good plan is way more important than reflexes, barely anything in this game happens too fast to react to.

It's quite a memorizer and slow-pacer but there're indeed not few moments of precise dodging to be done and input lag is the last thing you want there.

I agree that any input lag test must mention how exactly it's been made. Mame's STV emulation is still very far from perfect and for some reason it feels laggier than it should (on a Groovymame+CRT setup, but you can't set frame delay high enough given this driver's demands). It's still way better than Mednafen in this regard. The fact is there's no good emulator for STV/Saturn in 2022. Keep your Saturn consoles with you.

[Jonpachi]

Just wanted to remind us of Shmup Junkie's lag comp from a while back that looked at Ikaruga on Switch vs Dreamcast:



Even if Mark's analysis is correct (though his averages are a bit higher than Junkie's) I would say we're still looking at a solid version. I've never heard anyone complain about latency in the Dreamcast port of Ikaruga, yet there it is at a whopping 4.5!

Perhaps there are better ways to play Radiant Silvergun, but this seems to be very much "average" and I'm also of a mind that slower-paced games are less touchy with input lag. Having spent a ton of time on the ACM-V lately, it was much harder to adjust to the speedy games like APB than something more methodical like Outzone. There's simply less travel time, and at something like 4.5 to 5 frames, your brain will adjust very quickly.

I think it's perfectly fine to do these tests, and I personally love the deep-dives, but I sometimes worry that we've gotten a bit lost in this discussion. I hate to see people feeling like they have to self-own and say things like, "Well, I'm not that hardcore, or not that good, so it's probably going to be good enough for me..." I hear this a lot lately (even in this thread already) and it's getting a bit strange. Be aware of the facts, yes, but holy hell the difference between 3 and 4 frames of input lag is not something that anyone without hundreds of hours on a particular title will be able to notice. I'm personally making it my mission to get a 1CC on this version now as soon as it's back up

[Bassa-Bassa]

I guess his "TV delay" is from an LCD. Ikaruga NAOMI/DC is a product from the CRT era, but nobody complained about the original Guardian Force either and there you have it.

[OmegaFlareX]

Electric Underground just posted an input lag comparison of all 5 versions of the game, which is interesting because I didn't even consider there being that many:

https://youtu.be/pYBMt1WXDGM

Saturn [3 frames]
Xbox 360 [4]
Xbox 360 version via Xbox One [5]
Mednafen emulation [5]
Nintendo Switch [5]

Fixed, so no one else has to watch the video for this info.

I'm assuming he used standalone Mednafen. You can probably get below 3 frames using Retroarch's latency options (Vulkan driver, frame delay, run-ahead). If you have a beastly PC, that is.

e: damn, I didn't even read page 3 first so someone beat me to it but I'll leave it here anyway.

[BIL]

Mark lag tested this for his review and this is what he came up with.
Saturn: 3 frames
X360: 4 frames
Xbox One: 5 frames

He's wrong, there are much more than 1 frame of input lag between the STV/Saturn (same on both) and X360.
For me there are 2 or 3 frames of difference but not 1.
Never forget that the way to calculate input frame delay on console is not accurate. It's much more accurate on emulation.
I play regularly on retroarch (not for Silvergun) and I know perfectly what 3 frames of input lag means (and it's easy to fix it with the latency option).
I don't doubt that his calculations about the the saturn input delay give him 3 frames, but in this case, the method should be reviewed...
I have +5000hrs of practice on saturn/STV, and you can trust me, response time is perfect !!

Excellent to hear from a player of your stature on this matter, ben. I've been a little skeptical of some of the amateur-collected input lag results out there, the last couple years.

[Jonpachi]

...nobody complained about the original Guardian Force either and there you have it.

No, they did actually and I've always held off on the Saturn version as I had only heard bad things. I'm in no way saying not to complain or talk about lag, simply that this particular port of RS seems to be firmly in the "average" camp, and as such should be considered quite playable and enjoyable by the majority of players.

[Austin]

No, they did actually and I've always held off on the Saturn version as I had only heard bad things. I'm in no way saying not to complain or talk about lag, simply that this particular port of RS seems to be firmly in the "average" camp, and as such should be considered quite playable and enjoyable by the majority of players.

Honestly by Switch standards I'd say it is in the better-than-average camp. Granted, controller type is likely to make a difference. I was using the 8bitdo arcade stick in wired mode and it felt very responsive. No complaints from me on that front.

[beer gas canister]

MarkMSX uses an elaborate minimum lag setup including some custom arcade stick rig, so expect worse response from basically any other controller. Gotta say I am a D tier player but I can feel difference between a 2.4ghz M30 and bluetooth 8bitdo Pro+. This is a totally acceptable result for me and I'll be picking it up as soon as it's listed again.

[Redfox]

I owned RS on Saturn, I owned it on 360 and I still play it on Series S through BC and I gotta say it's not that much worse on Series S than on 360 and overall it's not nearly that bad between the microsoft port(s) and the original. Though I only have maybe 60 hours total on it not 5000 but def still a solid port (game on Series S). I'm super annoyed I didn't get home to get it on Switch in time, can't wait till it gets back up there still a very playable port!

Mark has too much sway on this hobby lol! There, I said it, let him read my words!!!! :p

[Sima Tuna]

He says himself that 5 frames is acceptable. When it comes to input delay, it's going to be partially on the individual, as to how much they notice lag. But the numbers are the numbers. I was hoping the input delay would be exactly the same as on Xbox 360, considering it's a port of the 360 version and Live Wire have a very good record with input delay on their porting jobs. To see that typical +1 switch frame of lag on a Live Wire shmup port is kind of a shame.

I'm all in favor of other people giving their own lag measurements. It should be noted that Mark provides his own lag measurement specs on his website/archive. Whatever method he uses to measure lag is usually going to be less laggy than the way normal people play these games. I'm pretty sure the majority of players aren't running their HD consoles on a CRT. So when you see that 5 frames, well it's gonna be more than that unless you have a godlike setup. Or unless you play with the stock joycons on an undocked switch (which is what I do.)

[subcons]

I feel like Mark was fair with his assessment. He’s basically saying:

1. If you have the Saturn port, that’s the best way to play it for most people if you’re playing seriously for score or a 1CC. (I can’t speak to PC emulation because I just don’t have a setup for proper Saturn emulation. I actually run my original system with a Fenrir and I highly recommend ODE’ing your Saturn if you have one.)

2. The 360 port on a 360 is pretty essential just for stage select. Ideal for practicing arcade mode.

3. Playing through BC on a One/Series is fine if you don’t have a 360.

4. Don’t have the above? Okay, the Switch port will do, but yeah, it’s kind of a disappointment due to expectations. It’s cool to have it portable with the features from the 360 port though.

I do hope they at least fix the bugs, which I’m confident they will. I’ll likely triple dip to have a portable version of it.

[seattlexc]

Not sure if I don't get it or if it's just not my jam.

My feelings as well. Does anyone know of a good introduction to the game, like a RSG for beginners video?

[xxx1993]

So the Switch port is a downgrade compared to the 360 and Saturn ports? I was already happy with it on the 360 anyway.

[Sengoku Strider]

Fixed, so no one else has to watch the video for this info.

That's actually why I left the details out. It's not like shmup channels are drowning in views, even with everyone talking about this video it's barely cleared 5000 views. And I think after Shmup Junkie he might have the 2nd biggest shmup-focused commentary/analysis channel out there.

He's wrong, there is much more than 1 frame of input lag between the STV/Saturn (same on both) and X360.
For me there are 2 or 3 frames of difference but not 1.
Never forget that the way to calculate input frame delay on console is not accurate. It's much more accurate on emulation.
I play regularly on retroarch (not for Silvergun) and I know perfectly what 3 frames of input lag means (and it's easy to fix it with the latency option).
I don't doubt that his calculations about the the saturn input delay give him 3 frames, but in this case, the method should be reviewed...
I have +5000hrs of practice on saturn/STV, and you can trust me, response time is perfect !!

If you read the comments on the video, he actually gets into a pretty lengthy & detailed discussion with Shmup Junkie about their comparative methodologies in measuring delay.

Not sure if I don't get it or if it's just not my jam.

My feelings as well. Does anyone know of a good introduction to the game, like a RSG for beginners video?

Funnily enough, Electric Underground did a how-to video on the game a little while back:

How To BEAT Radiant Silvergun! 1cc Clear with Commentary!

There's also his original review, before which he was bracing for the internet to burn him at the stake, because he's not crazy about Ikaruga and was expecting not to get too excited about Radiant either. But he ended up loving it, because he loved Zero Ranger and suddenly saw where all the influences came from. He basically says it's about the best anyone's done in successfully merging rpg elements in a synergistic way in a shmup:

Radiant Silvergun THE RPG Shoot Em Up - In-Depth Review!

[DenimDemon]

So the Switch port is a downgrade compared to the 360 and Saturn ports? I was already happy with it on the 360 anyway.

Feels and looks virtually the same to me (360 port).Minus the sound issues that are being addressed by them. Portability is pretty dope.

[gray117]

Mark lag tested this for his review and this is what he came up with.
I have +5000hrs of practice on saturn/STV, and you can trust me, response time is perfect !!

Excellent to hear from a player of your stature on this matter, ben.

Not really anything to say, but absolutely tip of cap to someone who's play and dedication has been a joy to me for what must have been 20 (? or nearly so, at least 15+ ? ) years at this stage. Years ahead of youtube or anything like that I can remember being schooled and inspired by downloading those superplays.

...

... sorry not really up on the news - were there more platform releases planned or was that just speculation/hope at this stage?

[el_rika]

4 frames is perfectly playable at any level.

[ben.shinobi]

Not really anything to say, but absolutely tip of cap to someone who's play and dedication has been a joy to me for what must have been 20 (? or nearly so, at least 15+ ? ) years at this stage. Years ahead of youtube or anything like that I can remember being schooled and inspired by downloading those superplays.

+20 years

4 frames is perfectly playable at any level.

I desagree at any level of skill.
Thinking this way is to accept the mediocrity of developers.
During the arcade golden era (80's), almost every arcade games had perfect response time, but today it is normal to accept this level of playability.
It is surely in the age of time and society.

[EmperorIng]

If nothing else, I was watching your videos the last few nights after digging out my Saturn copy and lamenting why I kept dying in stage 2 (or sooner ) unlike you!

[guigui]

I'm always glad to watch ben, and and even more to read him on a forum like here. But I very quickly learned not to try to reproduce his runs on RSG. He's like Roger Federer, just watch and enjoy.

Also regretting that any shmup port discussion nowadays turns into 3-4-5-6-15 frames discussion. Whose fault is this ? Developpers ? LCD screen ? Players ?