guigui wrote:Also regretting that any shmup port discussion nowadays turns into 3-4-5-6-15 frames discussion. Whose fault is this ? Developpers ? LCD screen ? Players ?
I'm sure it's been around for as long as players have been able to measure it, but it's been a combination of a lot of things. Like the huge popularity of emulated mini consoles; some have noticeably slower response times than the original games (the PS1 Classic was notorious). Shmup Junkie's channel literally started as a way for him to share his thoughts to people he knew about the PC Engine Mini (he was largely a defender of it).
Some Switch ports, especially early on, seemed like they were produced with no thought or care given to technical performance. Like the Vasara collection, those games are awesome and it's great getting titles like that which hadn't seen the light of day in years. But they had like 8+ frames of delay, it feels like piloting a boat.
These debates tend to come up most contentiously around arcade ports. Games which were often balanced around arcade operators in Osaka & Tokyo complaining that their obsessive high-level whales were burning through them either too quickly, or a machine was averaging 5 minutes per 100 円 instead of 3. So they're tuned to be incredibly demanding, and a port requiring a player to be able to hit the bomb button 7 frames ahead of when they they actually need that last split second save is unreasonable. It really does unbalance the game.
This is all compounded by first parties actively trying to murder the physical game business. Instead of buying games, people are forced to buy revocable digital licenses from a platform holder that can be taken away from you at any time (GundeadLigne got delisted and that was that, when I switched PS3s I couldn't get it back). These days anybody who wants to own a physical game in a niche genre like shmups will probably have to go through boutique publishers like Limited Run or Strictly Limited. People are charging $200-300 for those Vasara Collection LEs on eBay, so it's highly relevant to players whether a current version of a game is a good one to jump in on.
And of course the elephant sitting in the corner during all of this is emulation. Advances in emulation platforms like shmuparch have put those versions ahead of most of these current-gen console ports, in some cases significantly so. This means that for many players new ports must justify their price against already existing near-perfect versions whose cost is primarily karmic rather than financial.
Last but not least some players, especially in this genre, have reflexes way beyond what the average player out there mashing their way through Assassin's Creed does. They really do seem to have a sense of minute differences in input. This has led some influencers (such as there are in a genre this niche) with high levels of skill to have a significant voice in pushing this issue. But of course, those people only have an audience for this material because of the pile of reasons above. Anybody known for measuring input lag was pelted with questions about this port from the moment it was announced as available.
el_rika wrote:I repeat, 4 frames is perfectly playable, super-players have WR-ed games with 4 (or more) frames of lag.
I mean Battle Garegga, the hardcore shmup par excellence, has 4 frames of input delay IIRC. So the notion that 4 is some unacceptable slog doesn't hold water. I also don't think a single frame of delay is observable, unless in a situation where a player knows a game backwards & forwards and so cumulatively something might seem a little off over extended play.
twin stick shooters. Also 360 wireless has it’s own input issues/deficiencies.