Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardware

[SeeNoWeevil]

And if ports and minis aren't your thing, we have the most amazing emulation we've ever had

I don't know how many times I need to say this. I know this is a mind-blowing concept but, I do *not* want to download ROMS. So yes, I'm annoyed that for many games my only option left is minis and novelty cabinets. I had the NES/SNES/MD/PSX/TG16 all connected to an AVR. I literally have no HDMI ports left.

Play what you want, how you want!

How is this true?

[Steven]

I've been coding for more than 2 decades, I just wanna kick back in the evenings and play some old games without going against my principles of not ripping software off or sitting in a room full of plastic and HDMI switchers.

Great! In that case it should be much easier for you to do it than for some useless loser like me who decided to join the military after high school and learn how to shoot people instead of learning things that are actually useful outside of war zones!

There is one other way to do it, though you won't like it: you could just become super rich and somehow buy all of the IPs of the stuff you want and then get them all released on PC since you'd be the boss at that point. I guess you could do a hostile takeover of publicly traded companies if you really wanted to, but it's up to you, I guess, and there are apparently ways to block hostile takeovers, so good luck.

[TransatlanticFoe]

The situation:
Retro games are re-released via dedicated hardware, unlike a console there will be no more games for it (unless you mod it yourself). Occasionally there are nonsensical regional variations. If you want the games, you buy the device, pirate them or simply miss out

The solution:
Release the games in compilations for current consoles/PC. It's that simple, you'd still get people foaming at the mouth for the dedicated devices but you'd also reach a broader market

I get it, the micro-consoles are nostalgia bait and frequently include previously unavailable games as part of the hook to get people to buy an overpriced hunk of plastic. And as long as it's profitable, that's what they'll continue to do

I bought the PC Engine Mini because, frankly, it had a tonne of interesting stuff on it - easily the best unique lineup of the micro-consoles so far. Would I have preferred that to be one or two volumes on Switch? Hell yes. But I'm not doing it for anything else that's seen light of day since, because it's either inadequate quality, overpriced, oversized or splits out games based on region. Sega rarely trot out stuff that wasn't on the excellent Mega Drive collection for PS360 and even when it isn't it's drip-fed into whatever the hell their latest scheme is (micro-consoles, Switch online, the Sega Ages line). Seriously, that PS360 collection was great - do that, but with modern consoles and not crappy emulation (the latency on it's pseudo re-release for xbone, PS4 and Switch). It doesn't have to be M2-tier bells and whistles - just give it a bit more effort than the Psikyo collections (which I thought were fine, for the record, in spite of being barebones in features)

I would love to see collections made of the Arcade Archives stuff too. The price point is great value for what you get - but it's only useful if you already know the game. Otherwise you're paying £6ish for something you might not like. So whack a few together! Get people playing those weird games!

Evercade gets it and absolutely does not deserve to be spoken about in the same way as mini consoles - it's a console and you buy games for it, same as you would a Switch, Playstation or Xbox. I love it because it gives a load of unusual, niche and b/c-tier stuff a look-in - and at an affordable price (albeit low-frills, you get save states and nowt else)

We do, however, live in a fantastic age for retro availability (that isn't legally grey) across propee console releases. Evercade is pumping out oddities. Taito seems to care about its catalogue again. Capcom are dusting off their old stuff. Toaplan games are finally being re-released. It's not perfect but limited physical publishers are giving attention to stuff like Turrican. All I really wish for with what we already got is Arcade Archives bundles and for M2 to go back and re-do the early Shottriggers games properly (i.e. put them out physically and for Switch - digital only with fragmented regional releases, no thank you)

Yeah it sucks that occasionally a great game is (legally) gated off behind a chunking mini-arcade thing or its original arcade hardware. But at least we have an absolute tonne of stuff I never thought would see the light of day again. So that's something, right?!

[Marc]

I like my toys. I've got the Astro City, Egret, Evervade/VS Founders, C64, Amiga, PS1, SNES and MD minis, and a Midway Arcade 1 UP. I've also got a dodgy emu box with everything on it, but between those, I've hardly ever switched it on. All that lot has still cost me far less that the huge ass collection I used to have.

[copy-paster]

I don't know how many times I need to say this. I know this is a mind-blowing concept but, I do *not* want to download ROMS

I was agree with your stance about this corporate practice BS until I saw this. Emulation are one of reason shmups outside japan gets popular, and with this mindset you really going to miss all the best shmups ever released.

If you still whining over this and persist to NOT try the game on emulation, that's your loss.

[Jonpachi]

^ Yes exactly this.

I tend to buy console releases because I want to support the people that are working to put these games out, but Yagawa's not cashing a check every time a copy of Battle Garegga ships from LRG. It's not a shady practice to preserve history, and the people that made these games are not being hurt. If anything, I'm sure they'd be overjoyed to know that people are still enjoying their work.

[SeeNoWeevil]

If you still whining over this

Saying you don't want to download ROMs generates so many weird passive aggressive replies from people in retro gaming scenes. It's not like I was being judgmental or telling others what to do. I just don't wanna do it myself. Why is it such a heinous opinion that I just wanna play some damn games without more plastic boxes.

[Steven]

Having met a few developers myself (Uemura, Namiki, and Toyama), I can tell you that they are absolutely overjoyed when you tell them that you played their games, especially Namiki. I highly doubt those dudes give a fuck about how you play their games, just that you do.

Well, maybe Uemura-san might care since he's now in marketing over at Tatsujin (quite literally trying to sell his old games or at least the rights to them, and it seems he's doing a damn fine job given all of the Toaplan rereleases lately), but yeah, those guys want you to play their games.

Anyway, those M2 ShotTriggers releases are so damn good that I'm automatically buying every single one on both PS4 and Switch, and they deserve it. Hamster's demolishing literally everyone else out there aside from M2 in terms of quality releases of older games, as well. STGs have never been more available than they are now unless you were an arcade operator in the mid 80s~late 90s.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I just don't wanna do it myself. Why is it such a heinous opinion that I just wanna play some damn games without more plastic boxes.

It's not a heinous opinion; it's just an impossible one. The nature of capitalism and videogaming means that unless you're willing to purchase the original hardware for the games and maintain that hardware, you're always going to have to keep buying the games on whatever new platform they're released on as video game companies make new releases to make more money. You'll always have to be buying more and more plastic boxes. Always.

And of course, buying old games and maintaining the hardware in working order can be prohibitively expensive (due to retro resellers). Hardware will also sometimes die unfortunately. And that's not counting arcade only games where owning the original game is a financial investment.

Emulation has been wildly successful in maintaining access to games for systems that are becoming difficult or impossible to find in the wild for good reason. Harmful Park for PS1's a perfect example; it's one of the best cute 'em ups ever made that came out of nowhere by a relatively small developer. Strictly released only in Japan too. There's literally no way most people will ever get to experience this piece of gaming history aside from emulation as the game is super rare and thus ridiculously expensive.

There are also several cases of digital releases for PC being outright inferior to emulation since many releases are simply a cash grab and often saddled with input lag or plagued with various issues (the recent Rayforce release's numerous issues, the Vasara release with no remappable controls, etc) so there's no guarantee that a game receiving an "official" release will be worth playing. In fact, access to good emulation so that we can know how the game's supposed to play and be aware of when an official release has serious issues (especially when the original game isn't widely available).

Basically, you're stamping your foot and whining about a problem because you're too stubborn to recognize the solution exists in front of you. Emulation is actually good for the gaming industry and has directly led to maintaining interest in games so compilations like M2 Shottriggers or Hamster Arcade Archives become successful. So, refusing to emulate is, well, it comes across as very needlessly puritanical.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I'm curious what percentage of sales port teams like Hamster get, and how much goes to the megacorp owning the license.

Hamster is not really a "port team", but indeed a corp owning many franchises and entire catalogs of defunct companies currently, that's how a project like Arcade Archives could ever be. I read elsewhere that they're basically the old Toshiba-EMI game section with another name.


I really feel for the people discovering good old classics with suboptimal conditions, but that's how it is these days for essentially everything - the people prefer quantity over quality. But it's even more tragic how companies think of and understand their own games and history - as freaking toys. So the sooner one realizes and accept it, the better. Emulation properly done is virtually perfect at present.

[SeeNoWeevil]

compilations like M2 Shottriggers or Hamster Arcade Archives become successful. So, refusing to emulate is, well, it comes across as very needlessly puritanical.

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

[Steven]

compilations like M2 Shottriggers or Hamster Arcade Archives become successful. So, refusing to emulate is, well, it comes across as very needlessly puritanical.

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

Because the M2 ShotTriggers releases are superior to the original versions and both those and the ACA releases are optimized for 59.94Hz so you don't feel like the stutter from trying to play games that run at lower refresh rates on your 59.94Hz or higher modern display is an attempt to make you want to rip your eyeballs out of your skull to stop the pain.

There are also other reasons, like how I'm perfectly fine with playing Out Zone illegally on MiSTer but will absolutely buy it from M2 because I know Uemura-san in real life and still talk to him and shit because he's a really nice dude and he made a badass game, but yeah.

[Rastan78]

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

- Better accuracy than mame ie G Darius slowdown accuracy
- Gadgets that can aid in fully understanding how to approach scoring in some games. Ex: rank graphs, showing all boss part health gauge, boss time out counter etc etc
- Convenience of playing on console or portable in the case of Switch
- Autofire setups used on cabs in Japan that may be difficult to setup in emulation. Like the rapid L/R stick wiggle in Wonder Boy or 30hz synchro front/back in Darius Gaiden
- Access to direct competition with top players in global leaderboards as well as competition at all levels since most games have many more scores than games do in the Western community
- Access to replays of all levels with inputs shown. In some cases the highest level replays are better and more current than anything on youtube, nico nico etc
- Assurance that runs are legit. Can't think of a single time I've seen hacked scores on an M2 leaderboard or the replays. Whereas anything done on Mame is always slightly suspect or subject to controversy
- Nice looking UI and presentation.
- Added features or arrange modes, remixed soundtracks, custom modes, super easy modes etc
- Physical copies available

[Jeneki]

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

I do it for a couple reasons:

Hi-score mode gives easy access to a huge international leaderboard, with a full range of people from newbies to crazy good. This is an effective incentive for me to learn the game more as I slowly claw my way up to the next checkpoint. It's not for everyone but it works as motivation for me.

Also my consoles get used in yearly local event gamerooms. This is a very specific use case where I can't setup a Mister or laptop because there are policies I need to follow. However I also "don't notice" when someone else brings in a 90s arcade cabinet and it goes though a linux boot screen; I'm not the police, and as far as I know that's just a minor repair lol.

[Steven]

- Autofire setups used on cabs in Japan that may be difficult to setup in emulation. Like the rapid L/R stick wiggle in Wonder Boy or 30hz synchro front/back in Darius Gaiden

Picture I took of one of Mikado's Battle Garegga cabinets:

Spoiler

Yeah, set THAT shit up on MiSTer lol. You got a thing to spin to choose your autofire rate, you got a button to press ABC all at the same time, you got a thingy to flip to choose which set of buttons you want to be your autofire and which to be your regular shot... yeah, have fun configuring that shit. Oh wait, you can't because MiSTer won't let you. You can do this exact setup minus the flip switch on the M2 release, though, and this is exactly how mine is configured.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

- Better accuracy than mame ie G Darius slowdown accuracy
- Gadgets that can aid in fully understanding how to approach scoring in some games. Ex: rank graphs, showing all boss part health gauge, boss time out counter etc etc
- Convenience of playing on console or portable in the case of Switch
- Autofire setups used on cabs in Japan that may be difficult to setup in emulation. Like the rapid L/R stick wiggle in Wonder Boy or 30hz synchro front/back in Darius Gaiden
- Access to direct competition with top players in global leaderboards as well as competition at all levels since most games have many more scores than games do in the Western community
- Access to replays of all levels with inputs shown. In some cases the highest level replays are better and more current than anything on youtube, nico nico etc
- Assurance that runs are legit. Can't think of a single time I've seen hacked scores on an M2 leaderboard or the replays. Whereas anything done on Mame is always slightly suspect or subject to controversy
- Nice looking UI and presentation.
- Added features or arrange modes, remixed soundtracks, custom modes, super easy modes etc
- Physical copies available

Hardly any of that applies to Hamster. You think Hamster would even exist if everyone (i.e console owners) had easy access to ROMs and emulators? Doubt it. Seems weird to bring up Hamster in a discussion about piracy when their whole business model is basically selling licensed ROMs. Barebones ports of old games on PC are basically worthless, they only exist because they already made a console port and SOME people will buy it. Go look at the response Capcom get for trying to sell their back catalogue of old CPS games on PC. Go look at the replies in the Capcom Fighting Collection forum on Steam for example. Count how many times the word 'fightcade' is used.

[Steven]

Hamster started to exist over a decade before ACA even fucking existed, so yes.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Hamster started to exist over a decade before ACA even fucking existed, so yes.

Hamster don't even sell their ACA lineup on PC, you ever wonder why?

[Steven]

Hamster started to exist over a decade before ACA even fucking existed, so yes.

Hamster don't even sell their ACA lineup on PC, you ever wonder why?

Careful, your ignorance is showing. Go check the Microsoft Store and try again... or don't try again, because I think everyone here is getting tired of your shit. Don't worry, being ignorant isn't bad, it just means you don't know... or something like that.

[SeeNoWeevil]

They sell a small batch of the Neogeo games, not the Arcade lineup.

because I think everyone here is getting tired of your shit.

Nice, real nice. I'm the one getting so much shit just because I said it sucks that options for legal old games is poor. I didn't realise it was such a controversial opinion. I guess I'll just STFU.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

• "Quality emulator" doesn't necessarily mean the emulation is perfect; the audio in Halley's Comet for instance isn't emulated perfectly in MAME (at least not on older versions of MAME?) and is missing some SFX that are in Hamster's release.

• A quality compilation port means you often get access to an online leaderboard and bonus features not found in the original game such as new game modes such as what M2's compilations often include (GG Aleste 3, Ketsui Deathtiny, etc).

edit: oh, Rastan78 already said all this, never mind

Hardly any of that applies to Hamster. You think Hamster would even exist if everyone (i.e console owners) had easy access to ROMs and emulators? Doubt it.

Uh, the whole reason there's so much interest in Hamster's releases is because people know and love the games through emulation and like myself are delighted to buy proper quality ports.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Why would I buy anything from M2 or Hamster if I was ok with taking the ROM and already had it in a quality emulator on my PC?

• "Quality emulator" doesn't necessarily mean the emulation is perfect; the audio in Halley's Comet for instance isn't emulated perfectly in MAME (at least not on older versions of MAME?) and is missing some SFX that are in Hamster's release.

• A quality compilation port means you often get access to an online leaderboard and bonus features not found in the original game such as new game modes such as what M2's compilations often include (GG Aleste 3, Ketsui Deathtiny, etc).

edit: oh, Rastan78 already said all this, never mind

Hardly any of that applies to Hamster. You think Hamster would even exist if everyone (i.e console owners) had easy access to ROMs and emulators? Doubt it.

Uh, the whole reason there's so much interest in Hamster's releases is because people know and love the games through emulation and like myself are delighted to buy proper quality ports.

I really, really did not want this to get dragged into a conversation about piracy. At no point did I criticise anyone or make any judgments or get on my high horse and yet I'm getting called 'needlessly puritanical', 'whining' and get dogpiled on just because I wanted easy access to some old games legally. I'm sure people here have a whole bunch of principals I think are dumb but not downloading games is one of mine and I'm sticking to it, stupid or otherwise. Even though I grew up in the arcade, somehow shmups bypassed me (too busy playing SFII) so now I'm just getting into them and absolutely thirsty to get my hands on as many of the classics I can as I realised after 3 damn decades I love them. This is why it pisses me off. If you think that's stupid, then so be it. I ain't gonna die because I can't play Batrider on my TV.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I really, really did not want this to get dragged into a conversation about piracy.

okay then

[Steven]

They sell a small batch of the Neogeo games, not the Arcade lineup.

You're not serious, right? Neo Geo is an arcade system and it's called ACA NEOGEO because ACA stands for Arcade Archives. That IS the PC Arcade Archives lineup. I never said the entire ACA catalogue is there, but to say that there are no ACA games at all on Windows is just wrong.

Nice, real nice. I'm the one getting so much shit just because I said it sucks that options for legal old games is poor. I didn't realise it was such a controversial opinion. I guess I'll just STFU.

Yeah, it does fucking suck that there are comparitively few legal options. There's nothing that anyone can do about it unless they acquire the rights to those games somehow, so we have to wait for the rights owners to do something, become the rights owners ourselves, or go bankrupt buying arcade PCBs. Sometimes we get lucky and some amazing company like M2 and/or Hamster decides to do something miraculous, but most of the time not, because only an infinitesimal amount of super weird people buy STGs, so they aren't especially commercially viable compared to super safe boring shit like Call of Duty Six Trillion or Super Mario 680000 or whatever.

The current shooting renaissance is a truly miraculous thing and I am glad it's happening at all, especially as a new shooter myself. M2, Hamster, and Tatsujin can have my money and I give it to them because they deserve it. Celebrate the games we DO have... unless it's a Shitty Connection release because fuck those guys.

[Jeneki]

I'm getting called 'needlessly puritanical', 'whining' and get dogpiled

Go back and read this topic title again, and reread your original post. If you don't call that whining and don't understand how that led to getting dogpiled, perhaps the internet is not for you.

[jehu]

only an infinitesimal amount of super weird people buy STGs

love all you fucking weirdos

[SeeNoWeevil]

They sell a small batch of the Neogeo games, not the Arcade lineup.

You're not serious, right? Neo Geo is an arcade system and it's called ACA NEOGEO because ACA stands for Arcade Archives. That IS the PC Arcade Archives lineup. I never said the entire ACA catalogue is there, but to say that there are no ACA games at all on Windows is just wrong.

Nice, real nice. I'm the one getting so much shit just because I said it sucks that options for legal old games is poor. I didn't realise it was such a controversial opinion. I guess I'll just STFU.

Yeah, it does fucking suck that there are comparitively few legal options. There's nothing that anyone can do about it unless they acquire the rights to those games somehow, so we have to wait for the rights owners to do something, become the rights owners ourselves, or go bankrupt buying arcade PCBs. Sometimes we get lucky and some amazing company like M2 and/or Hamster decides to do something miraculous, but most of the time not, because only an infinitesimal amount of super weird people buy STGs, so they aren't especially commercially viable compared to super safe boring shit like Call of Duty Six Trillion or Super Mario 680000 or whatever.

The current shooting renaissance is a truly miraculous thing and I am glad it's happening at all, especially as a new shooter myself. M2, Hamster, and Tatsujin can have my money and I give it to them because they deserve it. Celebrate the games we DO have... unless it's a Shitty Connection release because fuck those guys.

Imagine if M2 and Hamster realised there was more money to be made with novelty mini arcade cabs and stopped releasing console ports altogether, you'd be pissed, right? It sucks man. Anyway, nevermind, rant over.

[Bassa-Bassa]

With M2, that's kind of happening already, I'm afraid.

I wonder how a City Connection release is worse than a Mini.

Uh, the whole reason there's so much interest in Hamster's releases is because people know and love the games through emulation and like myself are delighted to buy proper quality ports.

Actually, not in Japan, and Arcade Archives is, first and foremost, a Japanese thing. They found a success they didn't expect in the West, but they were doing that for Japan only even way before calling it Arcade Archives.


And yeah, Arcade Archives for PC/XB was a timid attempt which isn't even worth mentioning.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I think most of us would agree with you that all these "mini" consoles with preloaded games are kinda dumb. They're novelty items, and often their limited library is woe-fully limited and is missing amazing games from the library that deserve to be known but are simply too unknown to get included. It's certainly true for the NES mini, the SNES mini, and the Nintendo Switch's online emulation subscription platform.

Most of the people responding here are telling you that just because companies are refusing to release great games on a competent or convenient platform doesn't mean you personally therefore need to miss out on experiencing them.

[Sengoku Strider]

Most of the people responding here are telling you that just because companies are refusing to release great games on a competent or convenient platform doesn't mean you personally therefore need to miss out on experiencing them.

I've never bought one of these things, might well never. I totally get that it's not feasible for everyone to go out and buy these games outright (or at least get the expense past their wife). And that some of them have hit "only for permanently single nerds with Silicon Valley disposable income"-level prices. But I also totally get that people get hypnotized by announcements/online convo and chase piles of games, when they'd probably be way better off spending the money on that one damn cool thing and giving it the focus it deserves, rather than getting drained dry through the constant Steam/PSN/eShop sale bleed on things they can never sell onward. I may speak from experience here.