Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardware

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hamfighterx
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by hamfighterx »

SeeNoWeevil wrote:Buy a PCB, the original hardware or play it in an arcade? How are any of those desireable?? Why would I be happy that the only way to legally play these games is with any of those? My problem isn't that these mini consoles exist (I have a bunch of them), my problem is that somehow we've ended up in a situation where it seems the only profitable way to release old games is bundled with some cheap hardware/gimmick.
Only profitable way? Not to beat a dead horse here, but wow, that kind of statement really requires going out of your way to avoid noticing that we're in a golden age of availability of classic games on modern platforms (PS4/PS5, Switch, PC). Like, from a release frequency standpoint we're getting way more arcade shooter ports on modern consoles/PC than probably any time in the history of gaming, including the days when platforms like PCE or Saturn were still current. And while sometimes the ports aren't flawless, on a whole they are generally better quality than what we ever got in the past.

Yes, minis and hardware options exist too. But come on, it's a straight up flood of quality rereleases of old STGs in the past several years. It's completely ridiculous to claim that publishers are ONLY doing mini consoles and they can't seem to figure out how to do a profitable release that is not tied to specific plug-and-play hardware. I bought GUN FRONTIER today on my current gen Switch, there's a lot out there to play.
SeeNoWeevil wrote:I had the NES/SNES/MD/PSX/TG16 all connected to an AVR. I literally have no HDMI ports left.
Are you playing them all simultaneously? Unplug one or swap an HDMI cable, you don't exactly have an impossible to solve problem here.
Steven
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Steven »

I can't say that I hate those mini consoles, especially because I am quite literally here, although somewhat indirectly, because of a mini console that M2 did the emulation for.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Sima Tuna »

Sengoku Strider wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Most of the people responding here are telling you that just because companies are refusing to release great games on a competent or convenient platform doesn't mean you personally therefore need to miss out on experiencing them.
I've never bought one of these things, might well never. I totally get that it's not feasible for everyone to go out and buy these games outright (or at least get the expense past their wife). And that some of them have hit "only for permanently single nerds with Silicon Valley disposable income"-level prices. But I also totally get that people get hypnotized by announcements/online convo and chase piles of games, when they'd probably be way better off spending the money on that one damn cool thing and giving it the focus it deserves, rather than getting drained dry through the constant Steam/PSN/eShop sale bleed on things they can never sell onward. I may speak from experience here.
That's definitely true. I've noticed a lot of FOMO in nostalgia/retro communities, where people are chasing after expensive plastic crap.

If you just want to try each game, then emulation is perfect. I don't even see how a corporation could object. Play the game for 60 minutes and then uninstall/delete the rom. You had a chance to play it and now you know whether or not it's the kind of thing you'd enjoy. You can decide for yourself if you want to pay to play it legally or if you would rather continue to emulate.

If you are looking for games to give your full focus to, there are oodles of them out there available without emulation. Some are on new consoles, some are on old consoles and some are released legally on PC. Some are literally freeware.

I have largely stopped buying shmups for a while because I already have more shmups than I could conceivably 1cc. I need to get back to Espgaluda II, Mushi and DFK. All of those are available with good ports, totally legally, for Switch. Mushi and DFK available legally on PC too. How many hours will the average player play Mushi before they get all the main mode clears? It's not just cave stuff that's available legally. Reflex is on steam. There's PLENTY of shit that's on steam or on pc game purchasing websites.

There are so many shmups out there, available completely legally. Many of them free, on PC and Switch. "Oh no, I don't want to buy a switch." Then don't buy one. Why buy anything? Use your existing PC and either limit yourself to the legal PC shmup library + freeware + abandonware, or do all that and also emulate.Trying to 1cc the major shmups released by Hamster (ps4/switch, some pc) would constitute a massive endeavor just in itself. And as for the lack of save states on hamster releases, I'm given to understand that emulation is completely legal if you own a legal copy of the game. Or at least, so close to legal that there is no functional difference.

The steam shmup library just on its own would be enough to keep most people busy for a good long time.
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Sima Tuna wrote:I have largely stopped buying shmups for a while because I already have more shmups than I could conceivably 1cc.
I mean let's be real. We all do.
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Steven »

I have a hard time believing that there are humans that buy STGs but don't own way too many of them.
SeeNoWeevil
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

hamfighterx wrote:
SeeNoWeevil wrote:Buy a PCB, the original hardware or play it in an arcade? How are any of those desireable?? Why would I be happy that the only way to legally play these games is with any of those? My problem isn't that these mini consoles exist (I have a bunch of them), my problem is that somehow we've ended up in a situation where it seems the only profitable way to release old games is bundled with some cheap hardware/gimmick.
Only profitable way? Not to beat a dead horse here, but wow, that kind of statement really requires going out of your way to avoid noticing that we're in a golden age of availability of classic games on modern platforms (PS4/PS5, Switch, PC). Like, from a release frequency standpoint we're getting way more arcade shooter ports on modern consoles/PC than probably any time in the history of gaming, including the days when platforms like PCE or Saturn were still current. And while sometimes the ports aren't flawless, on a whole they are generally better quality than what we ever got in the past.

Yes, minis and hardware options exist too. But come on, it's a straight up flood of quality rereleases of old STGs in the past several years. It's completely ridiculous to claim that publishers are ONLY doing mini consoles and they can't seem to figure out how to do a profitable release that is not tied to specific plug-and-play hardware. I bought GUN FRONTIER today on my current gen Switch, there's a lot out there to play.
SeeNoWeevil wrote:I had the NES/SNES/MD/PSX/TG16 all connected to an AVR. I literally have no HDMI ports left.
Are you playing them all simultaneously? Unplug one or swap an HDMI cable, you don't exactly have an impossible to solve problem here.
I didn't actually mean for this to be shmup focused, I meant to post it in general. Yes, you are right, there are a lot of legal and good shmups to buy. Certain publishers in other areas though have gone all in on this trend of novelty hardware.

Sega for example, Sega seem to have completely abandoned collections of their old games in favour of these minis. Sega had an expandable Megadrive/Genesis collection where each game was DLC, they could've easily added new games to, but no. Everything going forward is on a limited run mini console (the Genesis mini II is probably not even coming to the EU and is going to be incredibly limited stock according to Sega) OR Nintendo Switch Online. Is the Sega Ages lineup even still going on Switch?

Not everyone even has easy access to ROMs and emulators. Imagine you're a console gamer and you buy the TG16 Mini and fall in love with all the games on it. Many of the TG16 minis died because of a bad USB port. If your mini dies, that's it, no more TG16 for you. Probably difficult to repair, limited run so hard to replace.

Capcom are killing it with their Arcade Stadium lineup, but if you want any of their licensed games, Marvel vs series, AvP then your only option is 3/4 size, $500-600 replica cabinet and that massive Capcom arcade stick... thing. What's the betting that the Arcade1UP MvC2 licensing deal makes a console port of MvC2 even less likely going forward? MvC2 is considered one of the greatest FGs of all time and I'd wager a large percentage of the fans don't even have PCs, so this is their option? That sucks.

The less said about Nintendo the better. If you're a Nintendo fan without access to a PC, then sucks to be you. I guess you could buy one of the minis and hack it to add ROMs to it (most console owners won't do this)

Like I said, I don't hate these novelty consoles but when they take precedence over straight ports, then yeah, I'm gonna complain about it. If you love STGs and have a PC full of ROMs, this probably doesn't affect you.

Someone mentioned it previously but there have been quotes that suggest these things are easier (read cheaper) to license as they are considered toys. This seems plausible as the idea that it's more profitable to design and build a whole new piece of hardware than it is to just release a straight collection is crazy to me. How is a Genesis Mini 2 at ~$80 more profitable than a Sega Genesis Collection 2 on modern consoles/PC??
Last edited by SeeNoWeevil on Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:03 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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heli
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by heli »

Raspberry Pi 400 with Lakka, no fan noise.
Chacranajxy
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Chacranajxy »

Well, you could always buy a Batrider PCB and play it wherever you want.
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blazinglazers69
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by blazinglazers69 »

There's thousands of great games online free to download. The original creators made their money--you're hurting absolutely no one by downloading it. Absolutely no one. All I can do is shake my head. Some of you guys are so housebroken by capitalism that you MUST pay to enjoy something. It's honestly just sad. Like, I get collecting a few games you really love and the appeal of original hardware but like....you can emulate a game -_- 99% of playing a game is you staring at a screen. Who cares what's generating that image? You can even get pretty much any controller/stick you want these days to be compatible with PC. You can solve input lag with Run Ahead. You can by TV stands that rotate your 70 inch TV in TATE mode. You have a myriad of options with shaders to get an APPROXIMATE picture like what you'd have with a CRT. You have flash carts so you CAN play on a CRT if you've got some desperate fidelity/nostalgia complex.

Like. Stop whining. It's cringe. Do you wanna play video games or collect toys? Just stop, dude lol. I have no sympathy for you. If mini consoles are too casual for you, don't buy them. If you must have original hardware then stop whining and make enough money to just get it. Are you waiting for mommy and daddy to see your thread and take you to the toy store to get you every PCB you ever wanted? Your problems are invalid.
SeeNoWeevil
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

blazinglazers69 wrote:There's thousands of great games online free to download. The original creators made their money--you're hurting absolutely no one by downloading it. Absolutely no one. All I can do is shake my head. Some of you guys are so housebroken by capitalism that you MUST pay to enjoy something. It's honestly just sad. Like, I get collecting a few games you really love and the appeal of original hardware but like....you can emulate a game -_- 99% of playing a game is you staring at a screen. Who cares what's generating that image? You can even get pretty much any controller/stick you want these days to be compatible with PC. You can solve input lag with Run Ahead. You can by TV stands that rotate your 70 inch TV in TATE mode. You have a myriad of options with shaders to get an APPROXIMATE picture like what you'd have with a CRT. You have flash carts so you CAN play on a CRT if you've got some desperate fidelity/nostalgia complex.

Like. Stop whining. It's cringe. Do you wanna play video games or collect toys? Just stop, dude lol. I have no sympathy for you. If mini consoles are too casual for you, don't buy them. If you must have original hardware then stop whining and make enough money to just get it. Are you waiting for mommy and daddy to see your thread and take you to the toy store to get you every PCB you ever wanted? Your problems are invalid.
The reaction from some of you over saying I don't wanna download ROMs is fucking bizarre, I didn't even want this discussion to be about ROMs and was trying to step around it (it applies equally to people with only consoles) but some people just cannot let it go and instead getting mad about it over and over again. Anyone else want to get mad I said I don't want to download ROMs, anyone? You all done? I found this forum recently after just getting into shmups and thought it was cool but honestly, some of you are complete assholes. I'm out.
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blazinglazers69
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by blazinglazers69 »

That was a little abrasive of me and I apologize. I still think not choosing to access literally days of pure fun for free is silly, but you do you. I just don't have a collector mentality I guess.
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Verticen
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Verticen »

SeeNoWeevil wrote:
blazinglazers69 wrote:There's thousands of great games online free to download. The original creators made their money--you're hurting absolutely no one by downloading it. Absolutely no one. All I can do is shake my head. Some of you guys are so housebroken by capitalism that you MUST pay to enjoy something. It's honestly just sad. Like, I get collecting a few games you really love and the appeal of original hardware but like....you can emulate a game -_- 99% of playing a game is you staring at a screen. Who cares what's generating that image? You can even get pretty much any controller/stick you want these days to be compatible with PC. You can solve input lag with Run Ahead. You can by TV stands that rotate your 70 inch TV in TATE mode. You have a myriad of options with shaders to get an APPROXIMATE picture like what you'd have with a CRT. You have flash carts so you CAN play on a CRT if you've got some desperate fidelity/nostalgia complex.

Like. Stop whining. It's cringe. Do you wanna play video games or collect toys? Just stop, dude lol. I have no sympathy for you. If mini consoles are too casual for you, don't buy them. If you must have original hardware then stop whining and make enough money to just get it. Are you waiting for mommy and daddy to see your thread and take you to the toy store to get you every PCB you ever wanted? Your problems are invalid.
The reaction from some of you over saying I don't wanna download ROMs is fucking bizarre, I didn't even want this discussion to be about ROMs and was trying to step around it (it applies equally to people with only consoles) but some people just cannot let it go and instead getting mad about it over and over again. Anyone else want to get mad I said I don't want to download ROMs, anyone? You all done? I found this forum recently after just getting into shmups and thought it was cool but honestly, some of you are complete assholes. I'm out.
People wonder why the shmup genera is "dying" when we have to tell outsiders shit like this:
  • "Armed Police Batrider is a great game!"
    "How do you play it?"
    "You steal it online or sell a kidney for a PCB."
For an antique ~80megabyte videogame that originally cost 25c to play.

Several people in this thread have recommended or alluded to rom piracy. This is not legal in the United States; this is not a viable permanent solution. More importantly, normie outsiders who don't play shmoops won't do this to play unfamiliar games. They'll get spooked and return to playing call of fortnite.
Spoiler
Despite this, it is indisputable that piracy currently is playing a key role the shmup genera alive. e.g Calice Cup could not exist in its current form in a courtroom without each player shelling out hundreds of dollars for game services and hardware. I myself would not be an avid shmup player without piracy.
This is a p r o b l e m.
Online piracy becomes a less viable option for game preservation every day. The more people break the law, the more enforcement will be attempted.
Yes, it is rom piracy is often more ethical (and usually more convenient), but that does not change that this practice is against the law.
I'm not here to discuss rom piracy, beyond acknowledging that it is often the only way to play some shmups on PC hardware with a controller of choice.
SeeNoWeevil wrote:"Playing old games legally is a pain in the ass"
Correct. This is intentional.
This is the symptoms of the larger issues of Intellectual Property hoarding that has been really taking off the past few years with the media corps. There's no interest in the games, movies, shows as art or history, they're just a collection of assets to attach to sell the next shitware. They don't care that Battle Bakraid wasn't born to be played on a 2" screen on the Astro City Mini or that ShittyConnection Strikers has a half-hour of input lag; This doesn't hurt their bottom line even if it damages the reputation of a shooting game. They only know it's a semi-popular thingy and they have the rights to it.
blazinglazers69 wrote:There's thousands of great games online free to download. The original creators made their money--you're hurting absolutely no one by downloading it. Absolutely no one. All I can do is shake my head. Some of you guys are so housebroken by capitalism that you MUST pay to enjoy something. It's honestly just sad. Like, I get collecting a few games you really love and the appeal of original hardware but like....you can emulate a game -_- 99% of playing a game is you staring at a screen. Who cares what's generating that image? You can even get pretty much any controller/stick you want these days to be compatible with PC. You can solve input lag with Run Ahead. You can by TV stands that rotate your 70 inch TV in TATE mode. You have a myriad of options with shaders to get an APPROXIMATE picture like what you'd have with a CRT. You have flash carts so you CAN play on a CRT if you've got some desperate fidelity/nostalgia complex.

Like. Stop whining. It's cringe. Do you wanna play video games or collect toys? Just stop, dude lol. I have no sympathy for you. If mini consoles are too casual for you, don't buy them. If you must have original hardware then stop whining and make enough money to just get it. Are you waiting for mommy and daddy to see your thread and take you to the toy store to get you every PCB you ever wanted? Your problems are invalid.
"You don't want to buy cheapware mini consoles, maintain 2 decade old arcade hardware, or break the law? You just want to be able to pay a fair price for a given retro shmup for PC where you can use autofire and whatever controller you want? Tough luck, you're just whining!"

Beloved shooting games are getting Disney-Vaulted to sell shitware and lazy ports. This is not an invalid problem, even if there's not a clear present solution.
Spoiler
Fuck Arcade1Up for being lazy
Fuck CityConnection for being lazy and bad at their job
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Sengoku Strider »

blazinglazers69 wrote:All I can do is shake my head. Some of you guys are so housebroken by capitalism that you MUST pay to enjoy something. It's honestly just sad.
I see takes like this from time to time, but this is not how a real critique of capitalism goes. The problem with capitalism is that it doesn't reward labour sufficiently; instead the wealth generated by people's work is taken out of their hands and funnelled upward to investors or executives' Panamanian bank accounts. The answer to this is not to just steal people's work because you have acquisitive impulses to consume and feel entitled to it. That's ultimately where the problem comes from in the first place.

Top notch avatar + user name combo though.
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by PFG 9000 »

There's something like 5,000,000 games out there. I'd hope we could all agree that it's unreasonable to expect they all have a legal way to be played in 2022. But there are a ton of old games that can legally be obtained on modern formats, and probably more shmups legally available now than in any other era of gaming. So if you're completely opposed to piracy, this is just about the least reasonable time to complain about the availability of old games.

My outlook is this: in general, I don't like to pirate games. I'm okay with using emulation to try out a game in order to determine whether I want to pursue a legit copy. But if it turns out to be a game I think I'll actually sit down with someday, I'll go hunt down a legit copy, even paying a few hundred bucks for it in some situations. Chances are I'll be able to re-sell it down the road for a profit.
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Augemitbutter
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Augemitbutter »

There is a small chance for a regular release even if a game appeared on new gimmick hardware. Progear is one example. We got a digital version after that Capcom stick version.

Yea, i don't have space for endless hardware so separate releases are welcome.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by Sima Tuna »

I can only reiterate there are at least several thousand hours worth of completely free and legal games to play on your pc. Then add all the steam releases. Add the pc storefronts that aren't steam.

If you want to play a specific, obscure, arcade-only release, like AvP, then yeah you're just fucked. Pirate or shell out an assload of money or shut the fuck up and play something else. There isn't another choice. You can whine about it, but a solution isn't forthcoming. Your best bet is to pray diligently and hope that your specific rare game that you want to play is one of the ones these megacorp IP holders decide should be re-released. Capcom has demonstrated repeated lack of interest in re-releasing their licensed beat em ups. They have even pulled previously-released licensed games like JoJo and MvC2 from xbla. So you're shit out of luck there.

Emulation is the only way to preserve the medium. Rights holders don't care about their IPs beyond the ability to extract cash from them. You can denigrate emulation as illegal, but right now the pirates are the only ones who care about ensuring these games can be passed down to future generations.
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heli
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Re: Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardw

Post by heli »

I am willing to sell you all the games, just dont tell anyone you payd me.
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