Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-ALL?

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bcass
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Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-ALL?

Post by bcass »

As per title. I'm aiming for a 1-ALL in the JPN version. Also, if anyone knows of a really good (and highly succinct) strat guide for survival then please let me know.
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Meriscan
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Meriscan »

For the pilot, both are pretty good. Ring deals more damage up close, so if you learn how to get close to bosses he can be slightly better. Bolt is always good though. But for the gunner, always pick Nail. She is very strong and you actually have some movement speed when you're in lock shot. The others are barely and stronger, but you slow down to a crawl and it makes dodging a lot harder in my opinion.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by wiNteR »

I have always used Ring+Rivet and never really tried any other combination. Nevertheless, my guess is that the spread-shot might be a bit better (that's just personal guess) in the sense that it might require less routing for stages. Because you can afford to stay kind of close to the centre without worrying too much about pop-corn enemies. As for focus speed, I have always found it comfortable (in the 2nd loop too) and never felt that specifically speed has been a barrier.

However, all in all, it seems to me that choice of main weapon(focus or spread) makes a bigger difference than the choice of secondary-weapon/gunner.

In the first loop, the game gives score based extends, so even learning a little bit of scoring can be helpful in that sense (for a basic 1CC). Also, I think there is also one extend on stage-4 mid-boss (you might want to read the specific conditions for it to appear). And I don't think it is hard to get.

Edit:
Information on extends:
https://shmups.wiki/library/Progear_no_ ... d_1UP_item
It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the above link but the score based extends are only given in first loop.

Edit2:
There is one more tip that I just re-called. On stage-3 there are few occasions when there is a "train" that moves from the left of the screen and goes to the right (getting off-screen). It is useful to destroy it by just destroying its front (as soon as it appears). This is useful towards the end of the stage and might help in saving a bomb (or making things easier).
Last edited by wiNteR on Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Jonpachi »

Ring & Nail (in their alt dapper attire of course) was my first 1CC, and still my go-to combo.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Stevens »

Bolt and Nail. If anything this thread shows you they're all viable.

If you're just going for a 1CC you don't really need anything insane as far as guides. It is definitely one of the friendlier 1 CC's out there.

If I remember correctly it wasn't till stage five I really needed to start routing and little (the opening is brutal). There is a 1UP on stage four and lots of score extends.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I've gotten into loop 2 with multiple shot types, and I'd say the easiest combination for a 1-All is Bolt + Nail or Rivet, using the A+B+2P start forward gunpod formation type. To use this, select Bolt with the shot and HOLD that button down, then hold the OPPOSITE player's start button and use the bomb button to pick the gunner. Note that pressing your own start button changes your costume, but this is purely cosmetic and has no effect on gameplay. 1P and 2P side both appear to play the same?

Ring is strictly a scoring character. He's slightly slower with all gunners than Bolt is but still very fast with Nail, but the main problem is his damage output drops dramatically at long range. If you're using the rapid shot up close it's slightly stronger than Bolt, but the moment you're not at pointblank Bolt's rapid fire damage is much more effective, even from across the screen. The screen coverage looks impressive, but isn't all that helpful compared to other shmups due to the steep damage dropoff at longer ranges and how there's generally a ton of high health enemies in Progear rather than popcorn swarms.

Bolt isn't as good at scoring at high level play (i.e. if you're getting into loop 2 with a gigantic counter) but his incredibly wide, focused stream of damage deals consistently high damage to the game's many big enemies from across the screen. And, you've always got the lock-on shot for any situations where you need more spread (and unlike Ketsui, you don't have to hit with your main shot to get lock-ons). Bolt's very concentrated focused damage makes him ideal for taking down enemies effectively. Select Nail or Rivet as your gunner depending on what you're comfortable with.

Both shot types have similar lock-on damage. Nail is slightly weaker than Rivet, but not by much. Chain should be avoided as her damage isn't significantly higher compared to Rivet (despite how big her explosions are) and selecting Chain causes you to move incredibly slowly when firing the lockon shot, making bullet cancelling for survival pretty tricky. Note that because of how Rivet's shots home in after a slight delay, she's worse at scoring than Nail is (again, only really applies at high level play).

Generally speaking, the lock-on shot does about 80%-90% of the damage your rapid shot does, assuming all shots are hitting. When possible, use the rapid shot on the C button for maximum damage, but if you need to adjust your speed to dodge or you can't get in front of something, hitting with only the gunner shots and not the yellow shots will still get kills in a timely fashion (not hitting with the yellow shots when using lockon drops the damage roughly 30% I'd estimate).

Putting the gunpods forward slightly increases the damage when using the rapid shot by positioning them more forward, and because they're evenly spaced above and below your plane it helps with spread and seeing where your hitbox is as you move. It's not a tremendous difference, and your pilot + gunner combo matters most.

For details on how to activate all 24 (!!) shot types as well as chaining, where the extend is, etc, here's a video for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vHl0XRY0WQ
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by bcass »

Thanks for the tips everyone. I've settled with Bolt + Nail + forward gunpod formation. Played for a few hours yesterday and seems that stages 4 & 5 are where most of the practice time is going to be sunk into! I also notice you only start with 2 lives, which suggests that they want you to have at least a rudimentary grasp of scoring.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Life stock is pretty much the same as other CAVE games, the main exception being you can get a TON of extra lives from scoring and potentially end loop 1 with the life counter maxed at 9. Make sure you're playing with the default settings, because you should start with 3 lives (your current life + 2 extra lives stocked)!
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Jonpachi »

Hey guys, I posted this question in the Capcom Arcade Stadium thread, but it might get more relevant eyes on it here:

What do we consider "closest to arcade defaults" in that collection? It's been said that "2" was US defaults, and 4 was Japanese back in the day, but on the Stadium collection there's no number system. It goes Easiest, Very Easy, Easy, etc... So I'm curious then if playing on "Very Easy" on the US rom is roughly equal to "2" on a PCB?
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

How many difficulties are there? On the PCB it goes from 1 to 8, what's the # of difficulties in the collection?
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Jonpachi »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:How many difficulties are there? On the PCB it goes from 1 to 8, what's the # of difficulties in the collection?
There are indeed 8
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Despatche »

All CPS1/2/3 games have eight difficulties standard. All Neo Geo games also. What the exact difference between difficulties for each game is beyond me, though.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by bcass »

OK to play this on MAME?
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Despatche »

I don't see why not, I'm not aware of anything particularly weird with CPS2 games in MAME. People have played Progear in MAME or some equivalent (Final Burn) for an eternity by now.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Yeah, CPS-2 games have been emulated well since shmupmame basically. I've been fortunate enough to play Giga Wing and Progear on PCBs and I have not been able to tell the difference between them and MAME.
All CPS1/2/3 games have eight difficulties standard.
I just wish the collection of the two D&D games indicated which of its 4 difficulties is arcade default. It's not shown (at least on the XB360 ver). :/
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by sunnshiner »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Yeah, CPS-2 games have been emulated well since shmupmame basically. I've been fortunate enough to play Giga Wing and Progear on PCBs and I have not been able to tell the difference between them and MAME.
All CPS1/2/3 games have eight difficulties standard.
I just wish the collection of the two D&D games indicated which of its 4 difficulties is arcade default. It's not shown (at least on the XB360 ver). :/
Some of the XB360 versions are slightly different, like the port of MvC2 (NAOMI I know but it's still a Capcom fighter) doesn't have all 8 difficulty settings either, just easy, medium, hard and expert (or something similar) so I suppose they're the equivalent of 2, 4, 6 and 8 on the CPS2 versions. Weird cos Marvel Vs Capcom Origins has all 8 settings and I think XB360 Darkstalkers Resurrection does too but it's been ages since I played it so don't really remember.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by donluca »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Yeah, CPS-2 games have been emulated well since shmupmame basically.
It really depends on your definition of "well".

MAME goes faster than PCB and has no proper slowdown (second boss final attack should be much slower).

This said... I generally practice Progear on MAME and since it goes a bit faster and has less slowdown, it then translates well when I play on my cab (although there are points when I'm a bit thrown off and have to adjust).

EDIT: when I say "play on my cab", I mean on the original PCB.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

donluca wrote:MAME goes faster than PCB and has no proper slowdown (second boss final attack should be much slower).
Not sure what version you're using but the second boss's final attack definitely slows down to a crawl in MAME. It's by far its easiest attack because of how slow it gets.
It really depends on your definition of "well".

I generally practice Progear on MAME and since it goes a bit faster and has less slowdown, it then translates well when I play on my cab
Looks like you and I share the same definition. :lol:
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by trap15 »

It's well-known (or at least it should be) that MAME (and probably FBA/FBN) doesn't emulate the slowdown on CPS-2 properly, instead hacking the CPU clock rate to try to get something close. So there will be differences in slowdown like that.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by donluca »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Not sure what version you're using but the second boss's final attack definitely slows down to a crawl in MAME. It's by far its easiest attack because of how slow it gets.
Apologies, bad wording on my part.

What I meant was: the slowdown you witness in the second boss' final attack on MAME is not the same as the one on PCB.
On MAME it goes a bit faster.

And the reason I pointed that particular moment in the game is because the game, in general, plays faster, but that discrepancy is particularly noticeable on the second boss' final attack.
It still slows down to a crawl, but it's a faster crawl than on the PCB :D

Hopefully that clears it up!
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

hacking the CPU clock rate to try to get something close.
Has anybody tried this, like with other Cave games?
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by donluca »

You won't get anywhere close because the issue is still in the missing wait states emulation of the 68k.

IMHO just get a MiSTer or wait until someone picks up the developments made on MiSTer and backports those to MAME.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by bcass »

I'm only playing for the clear, not score, I think I'll be fine with MAME. I also have access to the PCB in a candy cab at a local arcade, so will endeavor to check myself for any major differences once I've practised more.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

donluca wrote:You won't get anywhere close because the issue is still in the missing wait states emulation of the 68k.

IMHO just get a MiSTer or wait until someone picks up the developments made on MiSTer and backports those to MAME.
Has the comparison Progear PCB-Mister been made somewhere? I purchased the DE10 Nano in November and still waiting for it - don't ask. For pre-CPS3 Capcom stuff, Mister seems in principle a better option than Mame thanks to the author's meticulousity, though I never found anything specifically related to slowdowns accuracy, just visual glitches you still get with Mame. Correct CPS2 waitstates in Mame won't happen according to Haze due to the emulator's own architecture, so it's not like Mister's code can be backported in this case.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by bcass »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:Correct CPS2 waitstates in Mame won't happen according to Haze due to the emulator's own architecture, so it's not like Mister's code can be backported in this case.
Never say never. Once MiSTer (or equivalents) become more prevalent I doubt MAME will want to be seen as significantly lagging behind its developments.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

I wish. But I don't see Mame dev caring about competitors enough to improve old arcade drivers substantially. CPS2 waitstates seems to be indeed major shit, but the state of stuff like say, Konami hardware from the 90s, Sega System 32, Taito F3, Jaleco Mega System 32... is kind of tragic considering it's decades now since these drivers were developed. Slot machines and calculators were more interesting, I guess, though I wonder if these get finished for once or share the same luck.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Jonpachi »

I just feeling like saying how I'm reminded how fucking great Progear is. I feel back into it pretty hard the last couple of weeks and am now looking to work on a 2-ALL.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by donluca »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:Has the comparison Progear PCB-Mister been made somewhere?
I remember seeing a long time ago a comparison with CPS-1 (still 68k based) Street Fighter II Turbo playing side by side, MiSTer and PCB, and it stayed in sync for more than 5 minutes (then the video cut off).

A similar video was made recently with the PSX emulation. VERY impressive stuff.

EDIT: here's the PSX video: https://twitter.com/jamesfmackenzie/sta ... 5516411904
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Impressive indeed, ty.
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Re: Progear - best pilot/gunner combination for easiest 1-AL

Post by el_rika »

So is Mister actually emulating the wait states properly? And i assume it plays CPS-2/Progear at native 59.6 fps? (Though you need a display that supports this, obviously)

I have to say that, played at 59.6 fps in latest FBneo, Progear seems pretty accurate across the board, without changing CPU clock.

The one thing that emulation has to fine-tune, are the more noticeable split second stutters that happen in some big cancels. Those exist on pcb as well, but they are much less noticeable.
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