19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

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Lethe
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Lethe »

It's not just people not changing their lists, it's predominantly determined by who happens to show up each time. Because I'm a massive dork I went through the votes for this year and last year to use what's happened with Batsugun as an example.

Number of voters present for both polls who voted for Batsugun at least once: 15
...who reduced their weighting or dropped the game: 3 (2 of which were low-weight/HM)
...who significantly increased their weighting of the game: 2
...who newly added the game: 2 (1 of which is low-weight/HM)

Number of Batsugun voters in the previous poll who weren't present for this one: 1
Number of Batsugun voters in this poll who were not present for the last one: 13

So around half of Batsugun's votes, and probably far more of its total weight, is determined not by people re-evaluating their lists, but merely by who happened to show up this year. Consider that the sheer number of votes contributes plenty of score as well regardless of weighting. I'm sure this can be extrapolated to most other volatile games. This brings us back around to the individual lists being way more informative than the results which brings us around to the importance of proselytizing again...
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pegboy
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by pegboy »

EmperorIng wrote:
I mean it's lacking in games people have actually played, lol. Where are all these Battle Garegga players? There's one new post in the score thread for all of 2021. That's about 20 less than Rolling Gunner, which is one of the best-designed new shooters to come out in ages. You all have taken your Battle Garegga copies out of their collector's edition packaging, right? You're not pulling the guru maneuver of just having one "for fun?"
I mean can't you say that about almost every game on this list? There are plenty of games I haven't played in literally years that I would still rank as some of the best I've ever played. For instance, I haven't touched Gradius V in over half a decade but it still ranks very high on my list.

Also, you can be playing a lot of this stuff without posting in the score threads. I cleared a bunch of crap last year and didn't post a single score in any of the threads. One reason is it's easier to just post them on restartsyndrome since it's all located in one place and things are easier to track. Another reason is that maybe the score is crap and not worth posting (like most of my CAVE scores).

THAT SAID, I do get where you are coming from, it does seem kind of ridiculous to see a game ranked #1 of all time that nobody seems to be playing or even talking about at all.

One thing that might be more interesting is for people to rank all of the games that came out in most recent year and make a "best of 20xx" list instead of all time. It would narrow down the number of games to vote on and also make it easier to track the best games for any particular year. Although that would also require an active player base as well...
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Some-Mist »

To Far Away Times wrote:Ikaruga takes a simple concept and pushes it as far as it can go (opposite color = 2x damage and there's no get out of jail bomb are really great design choices), and the production values are incredibly slick too. I do think its a little "stiff" in that the game is pretty upfront that there's going to be an optimal scoring path and scoring well will involve runs that look very similar to eachother. I did actually play Ikaruga for score a bit, trying to get high letter grades in the first few stages atleast before switching to survival oriented play.
your get out of jail free option if you make mistakes is to score well enough to get extends :P
a creature... half solid half gas
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Sengoku Strider »

blazinglazers69 wrote:Based comfy Compile. Our time will come. Also, regarding Blazing Lazers making a comeback--I'd give a lot of credit to ShmupJunkie for that as he's said multiple times that it's a good starting point to classic shooters, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I understand the sentiment that Compile games are too slow, but to noobs or someone who wants a lesser degree of difficulty, they're great. Yeah, the first few levels are not too exciting for me anymore, but to keep things in perspective, imagine a kid in the 90s who's never played a shooter before. That was the intended audience. It's a gateway drug, and a damn good one (although Soldier Blade is even better, yes.)
I don't even think it's that. I think it's as simple as the fact that it was a game designed purely for the broader home market. The difficulty is right there with games in any other genre you'd play on the NES or PC Engine. There are plenty of people who call it hard, because compared to Bonk or whatever, it is.

I see people criticize it as 'too long,' but for every arcade 1cc maniac who wants to play the same short loop obsessively for 200 hours, there are 50 million kids disappointed that their arcade shooter Christmas present turned out to be only 20 minutes long. For every person obsessed with score chasing, there are 50 million who couldn't care less and barely even notice those numbers are there.

So Compile made an awesome looking game with some of the craziest weapons seen up to that point. And built it with several decent-length levels full of stuff blowing up all over the place to last players a fair amount of time. And lo and behold, it turned out to be a showcase game for the system that players felt was substantial enough to be regarded as its killer app.

For myself, I voted for it because I spent a good portion of last year playing Final Soldier & Soldier Blade, but when I picked up Blazing Lazers I ended up playing that much more. I felt that playing them in tandem, a lot of BL's elements didn't just hold up well against Blade, but surpassed it.
EmperorIng wrote:I mean it's lacking in games people have actually played, lol. Where are all these Battle Garegga players? There's one new post in the score thread for all of 2021. That's about 20 less than Rolling Gunner, which is one of the best-designed new shooters to come out in ages. You all have taken your Battle Garegga copies out of their collector's edition packaging, right? You're not pulling the guru maneuver of just having one "for fun?"
It's funny you say that, as I weighted play time heavily this year. It's why things like Kingdom Grand Prix dropped so hard on my list (too hard, in hindsight), and I swapped Galaga out for Galaga '88. I consider Galaga a perfect game on its own terms, but Galaga '88 is well made and offers much more to do with the exact same elements. So it's hard to argue against playing that one instead.

As for Garegga, I platinumed that game back in the spring. I liked the feel and design elements enough to rate it in my top 25, but didn't see myself going hard enough at it to dent a high score list. Because I got Deathtiny around the same time, and whew. Platinumed, 1CCed Deathtiny mode, aced the challenge mode (1st loop), I really stuck with it and loved it. So I had Garegga at #17, but Ketsui overcame any lingering weird feelings about elbowing out old favourites and hit my #2.

And Rolling Gunner...I'd love to, but Strictly Limited are taking their sweet time shipping it as usual.
I mean Blazing fucking Lasers, lmao, are we like those goombahs from the Super Mario Bros movie, being shot with the devolution gun? I've just spent some time the last few weeks playing Kiki Kaikai, Phelios, and Thunder Dragon 2, and those dadmaku -even the simplistic Kiki Kaikai- curbstomp compile so hard it's like watching a soyboy be shredded apart for mansplaining on twitter.
>_>

<_<

'Soyboy' is a little heavy on the Gamer Gate vibes there my dude. The staples holding Blazing Lazers' instruction book together are cooler than that whole scene.

But really though, when you read, do you only read Kant?
Spoiler
This is one sentence:

Now, if ends must first be given to us, in relation to which alone the concept of perfection (whether internal in ourselves or external in God) can be the determining ground of the will; and if an end as an object which must precede the determination of the will by a practical rule and contain the ground of the possibility of such a determination – hence as the matter of the will taken as its determining ground – is always empirical; then it can serve as the Epicurean principle of the doctrine of happiness but never as the pure rational principle of the doctrine of morals and of duty (so too, talents and their development only because they contribute to the advantages of life, or the will of God if agreement with it is taken as the object of the will without an antecedent practical principle independent of this idea, can become motives of the will only by means of the happiness we expect from them); from this it follows, first, that all the principles exhibited here are material; second, that they include all possible material principles; and, finally, the conclusion from this, that since material principles are quite unfit to be the supreme moral law (as has been proved), the formal practical principle of pure reason (in accordance with which the mere form of a possible giving of universal law through our maxims must constitute the supreme and immediate determining ground of the will) is the sole principle that can possibly be fit for categorical imperatives, that is, practical laws (which make actions duties), and in general for the principle of morality, whether in appraisals or in application to the human will in determining it.

(Kant, Immanuel, Practical Philosophy. Translated and edited by Mary Gregor. Cambridge University Press 1996. Page 173).

When you listen to music, do you only listen to difficult pieces that John Cage wrote using the I Ching?

I will fully grant you that this is a genre that's at its best when intense. I had Gunbird 2 as my #1. But that doesn't mean that challenge and pleasure are an inseparable combination, here or anywhere else.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by LenDar »

EmperorIng wrote:Thanks for the hard work yet again nifty.

I'm a little conflicted by the results (a natural feeling).
Herr Schatten wrote: The list needs more Alfa System
I mean it's lacking in games people have actually played, lol. Where are all these Battle Garegga players? There's one new post in the score thread for all of 2021. That's about 20 less than Rolling Gunner, which is one of the best-designed new shooters to come out in ages. You all have taken your Battle Garegga copies out of their collector's edition packaging, right? You're not pulling the guru maneuver of just having one "for fun?"
I just got Battle Garegga and Ketsui last December because I discovered their widespread GOAT status, and then a bazillion more (Holiday sales got me real good anyway).

I loved BG instantly. It looked like such a run-of-the-mill arcade shmup but it felt impossibly perfect and fun to play. Ketsui stomped to no end (still does, even as I'm working on it) but I came to absolutely love it about as much for totally different reasons. The shmups I tried but don't get nearly as much are DoDonPachi and Dai-Ou-Jou, great games but don't feel nearly the genius of those two to me (but then, I'm more into survival than scoring).

Ones I played earlier are still my favs and I replayed them as some of my older favs and I still love them from back then (in particular the Wii Virtual console): Gate of Thunder is still my favorite, and others like Axelay, Galaga '90, and yes I still love Blazing Lazers. The most easy-peasy game of my personal top 25 would be Star Parodier which is also pretty recent (but so what if it was that fun to play anyway, although yeah maybe a little boring?)

Rolling Gunner is also incredible though that's for sure.
What's shmup dawg? (lulz)
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by EmperorIng »

Sengoku Strider wrote:But that doesn't mean that challenge and pleasure are an inseparable combination, here or anywhere else.
my ballot wrote: [13] [Darius Gaiden]
[12] [Cotton Rock n' Roll]
[11] [Sisters Royale]
[8] [DariusBurst: Another Chronicle EX]
I too enjoy can enjoy a shmup with a lower difficulty level, if the pacing is good and it lets me do something during the meantime (ie, move/shoot around a lot or have a good scoring gimmick). Blazing Lasers is "get the screen clearing laser and hold fire for 39 minutes until the game gets hard"

Compare that to even the world ver of Mahou Daisakusen or Kingdom Grandprix, where even with lower difficulty you are always put into new situations, new enemies/obstacles, new tactics and positions needed.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Sengoku Strider »

EmperorIng wrote:
my ballot wrote: [13] [Darius Gaiden]
I too enjoy can enjoy a shmup with a lower difficulty level
You consider Darius Gaiden a shmup with lower difficulty!?

Level with me. Are you Dolemite for real?
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by jehu »

Sengoku Strider wrote:For myself, I voted for it because I spent a good portion of last year playing Final Soldier & Soldier Blade, but when I picked up Blazing Lazers I ended up playing that much more. I felt that playing them in tandem, a lot of BL's elements didn't just hold up well against Blade, but surpassed it.
Mr. Strider, would you do me the honor of laying out your case for the 'Blazing Lazers > Soldier Blade' argument? I don't see it, but you've piqued my curiosity.
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Sengoku Strider wrote:
EmperorIng wrote:
my ballot wrote: [13] [Darius Gaiden]
I too enjoy can enjoy a shmup with a lower difficulty level
You consider Darius Gaiden a shmup with lower difficulty!?

Level with me. Are you Dolemite for real?
It's definitely not an easy game but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's on the lower end of the scale as far as arcade shooters go. If you open that category up to include every game, yeah, Darius Gaiden is much harder than clears of stuff like Musha Aleste, SNES Gradius III, Axelay, Elemental Master, but I can't think of a ton of worthwhile or interesting arcade shooters that are easier than the ABDQHLV route.
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Lethe
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Lethe »

ABEINSY is easier than a V route. Still way more engaging than DDP C-S 1-ALL though. :lol:

I'm not very motivated by masochism either, which is why a lot of the games I've voted for have moderate or variable difficulty, or can be played in a more casual way than maintaining concentration for 30+ minutes. This is also why I've not voted for anything Psikyo or old Toaplan (I think I'm mentally incapable of playing Hishouzame). Challenge is a magnifying glass: the more difficult something is, the more obvious its virtues and flaws become. Tepid games get away with a lot from non-discerning players, because the game itself can't motivate such people to see its faults or missed opportunities - you have to actively decide you're not satisfied with what's on offer. And it's fine not to do that, but you shouldn't be surprised if you don't get respect for it.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:It's definitely not an easy game but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's on the lower end of the scale as far as arcade shooters go. If you open that category up to include every game, yeah, Darius Gaiden is much harder than clears of stuff like Musha Aleste, SNES Gradius III, Axelay, Elemental Master, but I can't think of a ton of worthwhile or interesting arcade shooters that are easier than the ABDQHLV route.
For what it's worth, the Japanese wiki puts that route at the same rank as Dodonpachi (1-all) and Vasara 2 (all).

Nobody would say those games are easy bottom feeders. Nobody that is, but robots sent back from the future to make 21st century nerds feel bad about themselves, to undermine humanity's ability to resist the rise of CyberLord OnStar™ (the deadliest AI is the one you forgot about).

Yeah, I see right through you guys.
jehu wrote:Mr. Strider, would you do me the honor of laying out your case for the 'Blazing Lazers > Soldier Blade' argument? I don't see it, but you've piqued my curiosity.
Lemme go back and A/B them later tonight.

As an aside, congrats on being the only person I know with a band named after their driving.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by jehu »

Sengoku Strider wrote:
jehu wrote:Mr. Strider, would you do me the honor of laying out your case for the 'Blazing Lazers > Soldier Blade' argument? I don't see it, but you've piqued my curiosity.
Lemme go back and A/B them later tonight.

As an aside, congrats on being the only person I know with a band named after their driving.
You caught me. And even thirty years after their heyday, I still don't know what it means to drive like jehu, but the spirit lives on.


And very cool - looking forward to the A/B analysis. Will the old wisdom of Soldier Blade being the apogee of Blazing Lazers' design principles crash and burn in a pile of rubble and bubbles? The world finds out tonight.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by professor ganson »

jehu wrote: I've got no giant issues with Blazing Lazers - a great launch title, influential design, and I'm personally partial to Compile's sometimes divisive music. There are just much better games out there - there's Soldier Blade, and really a whole trove of other console shooters with more sophisticated design and without Blazing Lazer's clear flaws - the drawn-out levels and wobbly bullets. It's influential, but that's normally not the criteria that proves decisive for these lists.

It doesn't bother me that it's there. I just don't think it would have taken a spot without the well-timed nostalgia thread (and the rise of Junkie's influence and his nostalgic reveries likely helped quite a bit, too).
Well said. I mean, I voted for Blazing Lazers in my top 25 this year, but it was more just a place-holder expressing my deep love for the PC Engine world of shmups. It has been my favorite system for shmups in recent years, but I still haven't entirely settled in my mind which are my favorite shmup titles for the system. My main complaint about Blazing Lazers is just that it's too long! But too much of a good thing isn't such a big deal. It's more that, as you say, the competition is stiff. So many other good titles.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by jehu »

professor ganson wrote:Well said. I mean, I voted for Blazing Lazers in my top 25 this year, but it was more just a place-holder expressing my deep love for the PC Engine world of shmups.
Oh nice, yes: this I understand completely. Blazing Lazers is an emblem of the PC-Engine shooter. And if its appearance in the HMs is a sign of a renewed wave of appreciation for that machine's STGs, I'm happy for it to be there.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by EmperorIng »

Sengoku Strider wrote: For what it's worth, the Japanese wiki puts that route at the same rank as Dodonpachi (1-all) and Vasara 2 (all).
*without autofire

with auto, that same list knocks its difficulty down 10 points to the following level:
1-10 "Low difficulty: A title that even beginners can recommend with confidence. On average, it can be cleared within a few months"
Difficulty is relative of course, but using the 30hz auto that you see in the game's demo attract mode means you'll probably clear the game in about a week or two of practice. The larger point is that pacing, balance, and player engagement offset an easy game. If you have an 'easier' shooter but are moving around frantically and switching weapons (like in Thunder Force III on normal) you don't feel like it's easy.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by copy-paster »

Sengoku Strider wrote:You consider Darius Gaiden a shmup with lower difficulty!?

Level with me. Are you Dolemite for real?
No shit there's actually a 4-5 year old boy cleared ABDHLQV on a real PCB. Forgot the tweet but I believe it's still there.

But yeah that and ABEINSY should be easily clearable as long as you bombing a lot.
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jehu
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by jehu »

copy-paster wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:You consider Darius Gaiden a shmup with lower difficulty!?

Level with me. Are you Dolemite for real?
No shit there's actually a 4-5 year old boy cleared ABDHLQV on a real PCB. Forgot the tweet but I believe it's still there.

But yeah that and ABEINSY should be easily clearable as long as you bombing a lot.
I like that this is condensing into myth already.

This just in: Newborn Shuns Doctors' Attempts to Snip Umbilical Cord Until He Clears Darius Gaiden's ABDHLQV Route

(I think he was like 10 y.o.)
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

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BIL
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by BIL »

Rastan78 wrote:Here you go:
https://youtu.be/J2pu5nygOPA
Just that simple macro @ 0m35s tells you this kid is worth more than 1000 media scrubs. Image Fundamentals, bitches! Learn 'em. Image
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

You caught me. And even thirty years after their heyday, I still don't know what it means to drive like jehu,
Spoiler
2 Kings 9:20
Again the watchman reported, “He reached them, but he is not coming back. And the charioteer is driving like Jehu son of Nimshi— he is driving like a madman!”
EDIT: Spoiler tagged in case you want it to remain a mystery
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Angry Hina »

Wasnt Gaiden treated like a really hard game some thread sides in the Darius Love thread?
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Angry Hina »

BIL wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:Here you go:
https://youtu.be/J2pu5nygOPA
Just that simple macro @ 0m35s tells you this kid is worth more than 1000 media scrubs. Image Fundamentals, bitches! Learn 'em. Image

Fundamentals? He knows exactly about the invisible hitboxes of the first boss and the exact movement for its sharp melee combat. Wouldnt call this fundamentals.
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Rastan78
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Rastan78 »

BIL wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:Here you go:
https://youtu.be/J2pu5nygOPA
Just that simple macro @ 0m35s tells you this kid is worth more than 1000 media scrubs. Image Fundamentals, bitches! Learn 'em. Image
FALSIFICARE!! That run was totally a DAS. Dad-assisted superplay! J/K

Man talkin of Drive Like Jehu brings back memories. Didn't know that's what your name referred to, jehu. Remember listening to them with my fellow hardcore music scene dorks in HS. Probably around 94-95 era.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

Man talkin of Drive Like Jehu brings back memories.

For the record, I know nothing about them other than what their name is in reference to, and that I had a roommate for about six months (who was pretty much a dick, honestly) that would blast their music, often. All of which, has completely unintelligible lyrics (at least through a wall), besides "Nobody gives a fuck about what you say" and "Yeah"
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by drauch »

Japanese father mentor with multiple candy cabs in their home. Shiieeeeet. You'd almost be disappointed if that kid couldn't clear it.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by BIL »

Pops probably put a Darius Gaiden cart and a copy of FFVII in front of junior when he was a baby and waited for him to choose his fate: join dad on the punishing 1CC road, or be with his mom in the painless Jarpig hereafter. :cool:
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Rastan78 »

All of which, has completely unintelligible lyrics (at least through a wall), besides "Nobody gives a fuck about what you say" and "Yeah"

Lol that sounds about right. Sometimes I wonder how when I was 15 or so I could live on a steady diet of that type of music. All that teen angst.

Re: Darius Gaiden I'd put it about similar with Thunder Force AC on the easy side. Like what was said above an average player could probably clear it within a week or 2 with 30 hz auto no problem. It has way more depth than Thunder Force AC though IMO.

I'd consider getting a full end bonus screen with no miss, 5 bombs remaining and all midboss captures to be the point where you hit intermediate + level of skill in DG.

But yeah if you just want to blow through V or Y Zone with auto and using bombs to get that 1CC list notch on the bed post, it's an easy one for sure.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by drauch »

BIL wrote:Pops probably put a Darius Gaiden cart and a copy of FFVII in front of junior when he was a baby and waited for him to choose his fate: join dad on the punishing 1CC road, or be with his mom in the painless Jarpig hereafter. :cool:
Image
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

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Image
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results

Post by Angry Hina »

copy-paster wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:You consider Darius Gaiden a shmup with lower difficulty!?

Level with me. Are you Dolemite for real?
No shit there's actually a 4-5 year old boy cleared ABDHLQV on a real PCB. Forgot the tweet but I believe it's still there.

But yeah that and ABEINSY should be easily clearable as long as you bombing a lot.
Doesn't 小3 means he's in the 3rd class?
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