M2's Hisshou Same! Same! Same! Collection

[hamfighterx]

For anyone who was waiting on Amazon.jp to put the Switch physical version up (or back up? was showing sold out for the past week or so while the PS4 version was available to order), it's now available for pre-order. Ships to the US.

The standard version is discounted from MSRP, currently ¥6,118 (roughly $53.31 USD).
The Amazon first print version with extra Amazon-exclusive alternate cover is full price, ¥7,480.

Shipping to me in the US is an uncomfortably high ¥2,895, but based on how well the Get Star cover from the Tiger collection turned out, I've pretty much determined I'll be buying these from Amazon despite it being cheaper (total cost of item+shipping) elsewhere; e.g., Play-Asia has the game for $59.99 and shipping for $5.90 economy or $18.90 express.

That thing Shmup Junkie posted the other day where Namiki Manabu said that Hishouzame is one of the most important and influential shooters of all time has made me very excited to play Hishouzame. Even if he's (a brilliant) composer and not actually a programmer or game designer as far as I know, he's still someone who actually makes shooting games, so I'm inclined to believe him.

Namiki was the director and game designer for GG Aleste 3 on the Aleste Colelction (as well as doing the soundtrack), and based on that... he knows what he's doing. Amazing game, and it's not just for the novelty of making a new game to Game Gear specs in 2020 - but the actual level design and technical prowess is nothing short of stunning. Not a stretch at all to say this is better than any other Game Gear STG, and a serious contender for best game on the entire platform. Level 5-2? 6? (the one where you're racing past a huge rocket that then overtakes you later in the stage as it actually launches) is just outstanding for a setpiece level on 8-bit portable hardware. The visual clarity and ability to see the bullets, the feel of the weapons, the pacing of the levels - this is somebody with real design skills, not just a great musician.

Sometimes I feel weird since everyone always talks about how awesome Cave and Mushihimesama are, but I've had Mushihimesama sitting on my Steam wishlist unbought since 2015. I played DDP for like 30 minutes once on MiSTer when I credit fed it for fun and it seems like a nice game and is one of the only 2 bullet hell games I've played (Crimzon Clover is the only other one), but that's about it for my Cave/bullet hell experience. I'll play more of their games eventually. They have a few Cave games over at Mikado, but after walking around the entire place to see everything in the arcade, the first thing that got one of my coins was Tatsujin, even though I went there to play Garegga and Daytona USA.

I mean, it's a little eye rolling when people like Cave and only Cave, and use that to do weird things like complain about prices for M2's definitive releases of straight up classic games... but don't let that keep you away from Cave's amazing catalog. Tatsujin is basically the origin of the Donpachi series, so if you're a big Toaplan head, well, Cave is a descendent of that legacy. I can't imagine anyone into Garegga and Tatsujin wouldn't feel right at home with most of Cave's games.

FWIW, the first time I went to Mikado the first thing I played was... DonDonPachi II: Bee Storm (the non-Cave Dodonpachi sequel), because I'd never seen that one in the wild

Basically, the reason people don't like Hishouzame is because they are fat and dumb.

I really appreciate this expert ability to distill the whole debate into one sentence (full of so much truth)

[Sumez]

but there wasn't a need for the extra bells'n'whistles, new modes or licensing the subpar ports.

Probably not what you're thinking of when talking about "subpar ports", but at least in the case of Fire Shark, I think having the MegaDrive port available is a major asset to a lot of people, as it's generally considered the more approachable version of the game, while still being very enjoyable.
I wouldn't mind it if this one's "super easy mode" for the arcade game was designed to match the port, too.

Of course, the NES Sky Shark is completely pointless.

[Steven]

Look what I found today.
https://imgur.com/dh94r3X
Look what else I found today.
https://imgur.com/5DbIIgK
Look what else I found today.
https://imgur.com/Vm03wnZ
And look what else I found today.
https://imgur.com/FU7wjcg

Is this intentional, Mikado? Are you doing this to me on purpose? If so, please keep doing it lol

Namiki was the director and game designer for GG Aleste 3 on the Aleste Colelction (as well as doing the soundtrack), and based on that... he knows what he's doing. Amazing game, and it's not just for the novelty of making a new game to Game Gear specs in 2020 - but the actual level design and technical prowess is nothing short of stunning. Not a stretch at all to say this is better than any other Game Gear STG, and a serious contender for best game on the entire platform. Level 5-2? 6? (the one where you're racing past a huge rocket that then overtakes you later in the stage as it actually launches) is just outstanding for a setpiece level on 8-bit portable hardware. The visual clarity and ability to see the bullets, the feel of the weapons, the pacing of the levels - this is somebody with real design skills, not just a great musician.

Oh shit, that was him? I love GG Aleste 3! I knew he did the music, but I didn't know he designed and directed it! Maybe I should pay more attention sometimes lol. GG Aleste 3 was awesome. This makes me want go play it again now...

I mean, it's a little eye rolling when people like Cave and only Cave, and use that to do weird things like complain about prices for M2's definitive releases of straight up classic games... but don't let that keep you away from Cave's amazing catalog. Tatsujin is basically the origin of the Donpachi series, so if you're a big Toaplan head, well, Cave is a descendent of that legacy. I can't imagine anyone into Garegga and Tatsujin wouldn't feel right at home with most of Cave's games.

FWIW, the first time I went to Mikado the first thing I played was... DonDonPachi II: Bee Storm (the non-Cave Dodonpachi sequel), because I'd never seen that one in the wild

Yeah, I just haven't gotten around to the Cave stuff yet. I am absolutely planning on getting there eventually, but there are so many other shooters that I want to play that I just haven't gotten to Cave yet. I am very much considering buying a Japanese Xbox 360 for the 360 ports of the Cave games that are still stuck on that system, for that matter. I did give DDP 100 yen at Mikado today, though I'd probably be better playing it for free on my MiSTer instead, I think. They had a few other Cave games, like Saidaioujou, but I didn't play any of them since I'd already spent enough cash today.

[heli]

Can be PS4 with a PS5 lookalike box that says PS5 / PS4.

Not the nice games with alpha blending for PS4, like the latest dodonpachi type of graphics, that is for PS5 it seems.
I dont know how many tollerance M2 finds acceptable, maybe it is to many frames off ?
I want all the nicer looking games first to be serious, i think we all want.

Question : would the clock be more accurate if you play by axample battle garegga on a PS5 ?, or does it run the same as PS4, not exactly the PCB frequency ?

[Angry Hina]

I mean, it's a little eye rolling when people like Cave and only Cave, and use that to do weird things like complain about prices for M2's definitive releases of straight up classic games... but don't let that keep you away from Cave's amazing catalog. Tatsujin is basically the origin of the Donpachi series, so if you're a big Toaplan head, well, Cave is a descendent of that legacy. I can't imagine anyone into Garegga and Tatsujin wouldn't feel right at home with most of Cave's games.

Did you mentioned tatsujin because its a random vertical STG by Toaplan? I don't see were DDP has more in common with Tatsujin compared to lets say hishouzame. This one has way less powering up demanding gameplay, only one speed and weapon type for your airplane and a less R-Type-like level design philosophy.

But I know Hishouzame only from videos, so if I am wrong, you can at least name the earlier Kyuukyoku Tiger. Overall I feel like none of the Toaplan titles with speed and weapon powerups (and different weapons) feels like a cave game. You can see in everyone of them the development towards the modern STGs but they don't feel for me like some kind of DonPachi zero.

[Steven]

Did you mentioned tatsujin because its a random vertical STG by Toaplan?

Probably because I mentioned playing it at Mikado, I'm guessing.

[Sumez]

The only Toaplan games that feel anything like early Cave to me are V-V and Batsugun for obvious reasons. V-V is still quite different, but you can feel Ikeda's touch on the bullet patterns.

[Steven]

Now that I've played and been completely destroyed by the arcade Same! Same! Same!, I tried the Genesis/MD port again just now and I can't believe the difference in difficulty. 1CC on my second time playing the port beyond just trying it for a few minutes when I got it to see what it was like. Compared to the arcade version, the Genesis/MD version is... kind of boring? Might have to try it again on hard. Lost a lot of extends on stages 8 and 10, though. Game's a lot more interesting when you have no speed powerups and only 3 bombs because you died. I noticed that a lot of enemy shots tend to blend in with the flamethrower weapon, as well, but the fully upgraded flamethrower is so cool that I don't really want to use anything else. I must say they also did a very good job with the music on the Genesis/MD version, as well. It sounds so damn close to the arcade version, and arcade ports were exactly why Sega chose the YM2612 for the system. Looking forward to trying M2's arcade Super Easy mode.

[XtraSmiley]

I think M2 went a bit overboard with the Toaplan Arcade Garage series, and by seeing how they're adding "bonus games" to every pack you can understand they kind of agree.

What do you mean? The bonus games are to give even more value to the pack and to actually get games out there that would never be sold as stand alone. I don't see this as going "a bit overboard" and not sure I see how M2 would agree?

They had the option of making packs a la Capcom Arcade Stadium with all those they think that wouldn't sell as stand alone. But what I meant is what you're saying - that they're "adding value" to previously rational collections (as they compiled whole "series") with random games because it's a way to get out there lesser stuff but also because they're afraid of the Tigers and the Sharks not having enough entity by themselves today, whereas they could sell, say, Batsugun alone much like they did with Mahou Daisakusen or Ketsui.

Also, PS4/5/6 it doesn't matter, they are all the same architecture and will play the same games, so label on a disc won't affect anything.

It will - I myself am not buying a PS5 or more. At least, I wouldn't like to just to play M2 games. But my point was that M2 may be ignoring Sony consoles sooner than we think, as it seems they sell much and much better on Nintendo consoles with the time.

Oh, I get what you mean now, and I agree with you!

As for your PS5/6 point, I think the code can be set to run on PS4 and up, no reason to cut out 100 million users.

I know the NS is doing very well for them, but the system itself may eventually top out on accuracy do to its capabilities. I don't really know, but I feel like it's cheap to make the PS versions and the physical discs are probably rather inexpensive, with the digital even better.

[Jonpachi]

Yeah even though PS4 console sales are dying, there's still a massive install base and we'll continue to see new games come out on the platform well into the next few years. It seems entirely reasonable to assume we'll have the whole Toaplan collection on the PS4.

[Rastan78]

I was in the same boat as lot of people and thought it would make sense to do the Toaplan games in a more expansive compilation. It's not a surprise really that reactions are a bit mixed. It does seem like it will take quite a while for the whole catalogue to be ported, as M2 said they would do. And the price, while IMO justified by the quality and features, is steep for players who are not highly invested in playing these games. Who knows if they will take a break from these and intersperse Shottriggers releases of other companies in the meantime. Or if the next few years will be all Toaplan all the time until the back catalogue is exhausted.

One thing I'm curious though is how much a compilation pack would have even been possible for M2. Look at Capcom Arcade Stadium where they licensed Mame. (I think they had to do their own sound drivers tho). They dropped a large quantity of good titles cheaply, but ended up with a level of glitches and input lag that M2 wouldn't be satisfied to release.

So if the Toaplan games are all on their own hardware revisions and they want low input lag, high accuracy of game speed, audio etc. even on Switch, it could simply be that hitting us with a big compilation pack all at once was beyond their reach? Unlike the console games from systems like NES and MD, I'm assuming they don't have preexisting emulators that can support each of these various Toaplan boards?

Then again Hamster is dropping solid releases from a variety of hardware every week (albeit with higher latency and way less features). I guess we would have to hear straight from the horse's mouth to really know. They usually do a good amount of interviews to promote their games in Japan, so hopefully they'll explain more about the development of this Toaplan series down the road.

[BIL]

I'd be just as happy picking up individual ACA releases of these games, just like I've done with most of NMK's STG catalogue over the last year or so. I usually turn off the ShotTriggers gadgets tbh, and I don't tend to bother with arrange modes either - I love the effort they go to, but I like to keep things stripped down. (practice modes, OTOH, are a different matter entirely - Tiger's are outstandingly good. even knowing that game's loop front to back, I was having a blast trying out all the checkpoints)

Waiting on STs is fine by me too. I'll be gaming until I fall off my chair, so getting something a few months or even years earlier means nothing to me, especially when there's a goldmine of existing material to explore. I do love M2's absolutely militant approach to input lag reduction. It may well be psychosomatic, but while ACA stuff feels perfectly responsive to me (PS4), ST remains the nuclear option par excellence.

TLDR: with work of this quality, "done when it's done" is A-OK by me. What I fear is the Super Value Fun Tyme approach of SNK40th and, sadly, at least on PS4, Capcom Arcade Stadium, where killer selection is soured by input lag and a decided lack of patching. Quality will always beat quantity with works of this calibre... I'm still enjoying CAS's 1941 and Carrier Airwing, and SNK40th's Search And Rescue and Genshitou, just on the sheer quality of the games, but good lord would I have preferred ACA-quality standalones.

[Steven]

Yeah, they can take their time if they need to. I'd rather have them release these slowly than rush them, although I highly doubt M2 would release something in a state like the one Cotton Guardian Force Saturn Tribute is in right now. I really hope Layer Section turns out okay, but at least with Layer Section you can get a CIB Saturn copy in excellent condition for 2000 yen if City Connection messes up the emulation again.

[Rastan78]

Yeah I've been playing K Tiger with gadgets off and the wallpaper that looks like an arcade bezel. Just didn't find myself using the gadgets much and they make the screen very busy.

But then in Darius Gaiden I found the training mode, extra save slots, gadgets, replays etc. to be unbelievably valuable. You can even go into training mode set rank to max from stage 1 and let the shit hit the fan lol. A few players have been pulling off survival runs like this lately like Kamui (Garegga WR holder).

With Toaplan games? I do think those features lose a little bit of the luster. Except for having a bunch of save slots and a training mode to practice checkpoints and bosses to your heart's content. Some of these games have some long ass unforgiving mother fuckin loops.

If we're talking luxurious deluxe extra features, I wouldn't mind seeing hitbox display modes in some games. It provided quite the learning experience in Hamster's Gradius III with it's unintuitive extra boxy box shaped hit boxes. How can a bubble be square?

Spoiler

[Jeneki]

Agreed, I find it difficult to pay any attention to the gadgets while playing. The warning lights are neat in Tiger Heli when first starting out, however I quickly found that I still needed to memorize where along that edge that tank would appear. And once I had that memorized, I no longer needed the warning to remember it.

[BEAMLORD]

I'm very hyped indeed for Hishouzame. Got Kyukyoku Tiger for Christmas, and have barely put it down since. I'm a gadget man myself, so have those maxed out at every opportunity. And happy to wait, along with most of you for the M2 level on these releases.

But ho-lee shit, I can't wait to get me some fucking OutZone action with full M2 woiks

[OmegaFlareX]

Now that I've played and been completely destroyed by the arcade Same! Same! Same!, I tried the Genesis/MD port again just now and I can't believe the difference in difficulty.

There have been several interviews at this point where Uemura and Yuge have spoken about the pressure on them from arcade operators back then to make games really hard. And Same³ was an example where they complied, albeit reluctantly. They also said the MD version that they ported themselves was much closer to their intended vision of the game, as far as difficulty goes.

[mycophobia]

MD Same on hard is delightful. the loops are kind of messed up because you get full power+bombs for clearing one which makes the next loop too easy but what can you do.

[Steven]

Now that I've played and been completely destroyed by the arcade Same! Same! Same!, I tried the Genesis/MD port again just now and I can't believe the difference in difficulty.

There have been several interviews at this point where Uemura and Yuge have spoken about the pressure on them from arcade operators back then to make games really hard. And Same³ was an example where they complied, albeit reluctantly. They also said the MD version that they ported themselves was much closer to their intended vision of the game, as far as difficulty goes.

Yeah, I've read a few of their interviews. I tried MD hard mode this morning and it's probably just about perfect. Definitely looking forward to playing it some more on hard, but also to seeing what options the custom mode on ShotTriggers will give us. I haven't checked out the options on Kyuukyoku Tiger-Heli's custom mode yet and I imagine they might be similar, so maybe I'll do that in a little while.

[Steven]

They updated the website yesterday with the preorder stuff. Looks like the another jacket isn't finished yet, but the rest of it's there. Nothing from Rakuten Books this time, apparently.

[Some-Mist]

posting here so it doesn't get lost in the toaplan thread, but is there a hishousame arrange soundtrack? I've been playing it on and off since the release and I kinda wanted to spice up my playthrough, but the sound menu only has a volume option... so I think not?

[jehu]

posting here so it doesn't get lost in the toaplan thread, but is there a hishousame arrange soundtrack? I've been playing it on and off since the release and I kinda wanted to spice up my playthrough, but the sound menu only has a volume option... so I think not?

Nope, unfortunately not.

World would be better if it did, though.

[parodius]

Well the FM-Towns version has an arrange soundtrack (it's redbook audio) which is very nice, I listen to it regularly.

[Steven]

Who did the arranged music for FM Towns? I know Uemura-san did it for PC Engine Zero Wing and Toaplan Shooting Battle 1. I want to say he also did FM Towns Kyuukyoku Tiger, but I may be wrong.

BTW in case anyone is wondering, today I finally got started on the translation of the Wada/Wardner interview that is in the book that came with this game. Yes, it's happening. I'm hoping to post it before the 17th or so. No promises as to that date specifically, or any date, for that matter, but expect it around that time.

[Some-Mist]

Damn, figured that was the case, but with the gadgets enabled it lists "BGM Set: Arcade Sound" kinda implying there's an option

[TransatlanticFoe]

Yeah the earlier Twin Cobra package did the same thing. Makes me wonder whether they intended to include something and either ran out of time or couldn't get the rights - and was probably more hassle to change for the Flying Shark release. Would have been fun to be able to swap the soundtracks around with the included console versions at least.

[jehu]

BTW in case anyone is wondering, today I finally got started on the translation of the Wada/Wardner interview that is in the book that came with this game. Yes, it's happening. I'm hoping to post it before the 17th or so. No promises as to that date specifically, or any date, for that matter, but expect it around that time.

No rush, but thanks for taking the time to do it.

[BIL]

BTW in case anyone is wondering, today I finally got started on the translation of the Wada/Wardner interview that is in the book that came with this game. Yes, it's happening. I'm hoping to post it before the 17th or so. No promises as to that date specifically, or any date, for that matter, but expect it around that time.

No rush, but thanks for taking the time to do it.

Indeed, great news bud. Done whenever it's done!

[Rastan78]

https://crossfish.sakura.ne.jp/same/TOP/top.html

Here's a very in depth Japanese guide for Same! Same! Reads pretty well via autotranslate

[Angry Hina]

OMG, I've beaten yesterday the World version of Hishouzame surprisingly as a one life clear. I was very pleased and thought, that its a perfect result for me to move on. Right now I wanted to upload the run to my channel and what do I have to see? M2 didnt implemented the replay theatre for anything other than the main game.... Its so frustrating :´(((