19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread*

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Samildanach
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Samildanach »

Hmm, I'm not quite there on Nifty's list of approved shmups to be eligible to vote (played just over 40 by my count). I've been playing shmups since the late 80s but obviously just the wrong ones ha ha! Hopefully should be much closer to about 65 on the list by next year as I have a good number of the top games lined up to try in '22; life is good!
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SPM
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by SPM »

Samildanach wrote:Hmm, I'm not quite there on Nifty's list of approved shmups to be eligible to vote (played just over 40 by my count). I've been playing shmups since the late 80s but obviously just the wrong ones ha ha! Hopefully should be much closer to about 65 on the list by next year as I have a good number of the top games lined up to try in '22; life is good!
I don't think you need to have played exactly 65+ of those. That's just a general idea to help you decide if you have enough knowledge. But you could have way more, just with different titles. Enough to have a solid top 25 (or a top 15 with less impact on the final results). Also take into account that the rule "at least half of those" is increasing each year as the list of games that reached the top25/HM gets bigger.

IMO a top 25 out of 75-100 games may be solid (and a top 15 out of 45-60) regardless of which games, unless you've only played the worst crap hahaha (and this might be the reason for that rule)

(but @Nifty has the last word on this)
Last edited by SPM on Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NuclearPotato
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by NuclearPotato »

Dusted off this old ass account of mine to put in a vote this year, a combination of me remembering about this vote and the confidence from having my shmup skills turn a corner from "dogshit" to "actually mildly competent" this year. I just decided to throw out a list hitting all over the spectrum of shmups, based on games I've actually put in a semi-reasonable amount of time into. My only regret is not putting G-Darius in there somewhere, but realistically I won't be putting all that much time into that until the PC port comes out this year.
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Lethe
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Lethe »

Nifty, Fairy Wars is still missing from the previous HMs list.

Went up to a 35 this time following the addition of TranscendPang. Tough choices over which weird shit I want to pay lip service to.
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Nifty
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Nifty »

Lethe wrote:Nifty, Fairy Wars is still missing from the previous HMs list.
When the how did I

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it's fixed now
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote:I still can't believe Sideline ripped a tile from metroid. Jesus man. No shame!
Yeah, I don't know why with all the other artwork they did they ripped sprites of Maridia from Super Metroid, but they still made a good game.

Does Super Locomotive qualify as a shmup? I'd argue it does, albeit a highly nontraditional one.
dmk1198
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by dmk1198 »

Herr Schatten wrote:This year, there are two new entries in my top 25.

The first is R-Type Final 2. I really didn't expect to enjoy this as much as I did (and still do). At first glance, it felt a little rough around the edges, but it really grew on me as I kept playing. The levels are very solidly designed, with none of the cinematic filler that plagued parts of RTF1. There's a good amount of variety due to the three different routes through the game, and it's a ton of fun to re-learn the stages with different ships and their unique sets of features. Additionally, the many difficulty settings offer something for everyone, ranging from a casual cruise to a true arcade experience. The homage stages are nice bonuses and fun diversions, even though I generally find them less compelling than the game's main courses.

The second one is Sisters Royale, another game that has much more to offer than it first seems. From watching videos of it, I originally mistook it for a "lesser" Shikigami-no-Shiro-type of game, but when I started actually playing it, I found out that this impression was quite wrong. The game follows the template set by SnS II closely, but it's not so much a stripped-down but rather a condensed version of it. The game does away with most of the new gameplay elements from SnS III and reduces the number of characters considerably, probably to make sure they play sufficiently differently. The action is a little more zoomed-in, which makes the game feel a little more claustrophobic. I'm not a huge fan of the stage gimmicks (ice patches, fans, etc.), but those are just minor irritations in an otherwise excellent game. In fact, I would recommend this to newcomers who want to try this style of gameplay over any of the original SnS games, as it's so much more accessible. The game's very generous with bombs and extends, so a 1CC isn't the most difficult thing to achieve. However, once you start playing for score, a whole new dimension of the game opens up and it becomes very, very addictive. Many thanks to EmperorIng for tirelessly recommending this game. I don't know if I had given it a due chance otherwise.
I was hoping r type final 2 might get a mention

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Acid
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Acid »

I haven't been on this website very long, but I can't help but feel like there is an unwritten rule stating we have to pretend that we don't think Tyrian 2000 kicks many an ass. Tons of stages. Amusing novelties. Large variety of weapons. The ability to buff and nerf yourself with both weapons and ship upgrades. Shit, you can simply play with the combinations you think look coolest; and there are many cool looking combos.
Spoiler
Now excuse me while I go shoot bananas and hotdogs out of a carrot.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Acid wrote:I haven't been on this website very long, but I can't help but feel like there is an unwritten rule stating we have to pretend that we don't think Tyrian 2000 kicks many an ass. Tons of stages. Amusing novelties. Large variety of weapons. The ability to buff and nerf yourself with both weapons and ship upgrades. Shit, you can simply play with the combinations you think look coolest; and there are many cool looking combos.
Spoiler
Now excuse me while I go shoot bananas and hotdogs out of a carrot.
It sounds just like the game for me, since I, at least in theory, love shmups with procedurally generated content, and upgrade systems, but haven't found even one I truly love, including Tyrian 2000. Cool concept, though.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by WeedyRainfall »

Lol there's no "unwritten rule" about tyrian, it's just a terrible fucking game, that's why we don't vote for it

The only reason anyone brings it up is as an example of how to make a really bad shmup
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

ass chug
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To Far Away Times
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by To Far Away Times »

I tried Tyrian some years back and it wasn't for me. It leans too far into euroshmup design for my taste. But I also really like some games that aren't all that well liked around here, so you do you.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by EmperorIng »

WeedyRainfall wrote:Lol there's no "unwritten rule" about tyrian, it's just a terrible fucking game, that's why we don't vote for it
it'd be funny to tally up how many votes it has actually gotten over the last decade. My guess, is less than 20 and most of them from the same dadshitter. 8)

I still need to review my list and make adjustments, and add some honorable mentions for funsies.
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Lethe
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Lethe »

Actually counting Tyrian votes: 3 in the last 10 years, one of which is an HM. 12? total ever, with breakout successes in the 4th and 8th polls at 3 votes each (which is still better than many good games get).
Eyvah_Ehyeh wrote:It sounds just like the game for me, since I, at least in theory, love shmups with procedurally generated content, and upgrade systems, but haven't found even one I truly love, including Tyrian 2000. Cool concept, though.
What's your experience with Twinkle Star Sprites and its derivatives? The most successful procedural format IMO, essentially fusing shmup and arcade puzzler gameplay.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by To Far Away Times »

Steredenn works fairly well for a procedurally generated game. I had a good bit of fun with it, though I would hardly consider it for a Top 25.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

Tyrian is great. It's also completely missing its target audience here. I cannot call Tyrian a good shmup because it doesn't qualify by any standard save for music. However, if you asked me if Tyrian is a good game, I'd immediately say yes. Call it a space adventure, maybe, and it'd do better, but I don't think it belongs on this list.

It'd be like putting a spade on a weapon tierlist.

(And just for the record, I'm not the other fraud guy who posted tyrian earlier. I still find that funny.)
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Lethe wrote: What's your experience with Twinkle Star Sprites and its derivatives? The most successful procedural format IMO, essentially fusing shmup and arcade puzzler gameplay.
I don't enjoy them. I'm very much into vertical bullet hell shmups, and would enjoy more procedural content in these, plus upgrade systems, and also many extends, just like in old arcade games, and parsec47 and noiz2sa when talking about modern shmups.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Hey, I just remembered that Housemarque, creators of Returnal, exist. Resogun is pretty awesome, although it still doesn't have a PC part, which the twin-stick shooter Nex Machina has, so I'm gonna try that out now. But yeah Resogun - for sure one of my favorite non-japanese shmups (it's Finnish), and one that I for sure forgot. I also remembered Mutant Storm Reloaded for the XBOX 360, that i enjoyed playing back in the day, but looking back at it now, it has no place in my top 25, and mostly I played it because it was to my knowledge the only somewhat good twin stick shooter for the 360 besides Geometry Wars.
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m.sniffles.esq
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

Resogun is pretty awesome, although it still doesn't have a PC part

It was a launch title meaning that Sony probably ponied up for it's development.
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Samildanach
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Samildanach »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote:Tyrian is great. It's also completely missing its target audience here. I cannot call Tyrian a good shmup because it doesn't qualify by any standard save for music. However, if you asked me if Tyrian is a good game, I'd immediately say yes. Call it a space adventure, maybe, and it'd do better, but I don't think it belongs on this list.

It'd be like putting a spade on a weapon tierlist.

(And just for the record, I'm not the other fraud guy who posted tyrian earlier. I still find that funny.)
Totally agree. Tyrian, Sky Force and their ilk are almost a different genre, and indeed well loved and popular by probably a bigger crowd than the non-euro-shmups fan base.
They also do what they aim to do extremely well, as well as potentially drawing fans into loving Japanese style shmups later, so they should be celebrated for that.
They don't belong anywhere near a top 50 shmups list, but they would surely be near the top of a 50 most approachable shmup list?
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

m.sniffles.esq wrote:Resogun is pretty awesome, although it still doesn't have a PC part

It was a launch title meaning that Sony probably ponied up for it's development.
I thought exclusive titles were a thing of the past, though? But perhaps there wasn't big enough of an audience to port the game, as is the case with for example God Of War, which just got a PC port. Still waiting for Bloodborne and Persona 5 (and Returnal), though.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Samildanach wrote:Totally agree. Tyrian, Sky Force and their ilk are almost a different genre, and indeed well loved and popular by probably a bigger crowd than the non-euro-shmups fan base.
But I mean isn't it a shmup but with an uncommon level structure, and upgradeable weapons? Isn't Area 88 a shmup either, then? It seems sketch to not classify Tyrian as a shmup, seeing as how you play as a ship, vertically scrolling, avoiding bullets, and shooting enemies, which in my mind is a shmup. It doesn't need an elaborate scoring system, right? And I mean tohou games reach a wider audience that doesn't play any other shmups too, so that can't be a factor either. What DOESN'T make it a shmup, exactly?
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

you have to understand that shmup standards and general gaming standards are not the same.

tyrian is a shmup, sure. but judging by what people here like in their games and want their games to have, it's a terrible shmup.

at the same time it has a lot of characteristics that make it a good game in general. replayability. customization. a nice story, of all things. so if we just look at it as a game, it's more than fine.

going a bit deeper into it
Spoiler
the shmup experience for most is about having polished mechanics that work well together, as well as enjoyable fights in the game. no matter what shmup you're playing, having fun levels and bosses make it great. in a shmup, we're also expected to still have a challenge even if playing optimally. difficulty often means harder patterns instead of tougher enemies. our abilities are limited but suited for the game. an advanced shmup strategy could be knowing when to bomb or what powerups to bring for certain parts of the game.

in tyrian, we have basically infinite movement using the mouse, and can immediately buy a weapon that will instantly kill bosses. balance, while somewhat present, is not priority. harder difficulties turn the game unfun with bad scaling instead of harder patterns. those seeking to go to the limits of playing will realise you have access to insane tools like invincibility or health increase. our arsenal is huge but unbalanced. an advanced tyrian strategy could be activating invincibility, ramming straight into a boss and detonating mines inside it that rip through it from within (and yes, this is an actual strat for harder difficulties without the plasma weapon)

while superficially similar, the more you look at it, the more you realize that the design of tyrian goes in a very different direction than a typical shmup. it's played differently than a typical shmup. it's mastered differently than a typical shmup. it is, in fact, loved by different people than a typical shmup, with only some overlap for those who fit both target audiences.

so, saying that tyrian should be excluded from this list is not a hot take at all. it is destined to always score low, and this gets us people who call it a bad game, which is objectively just not true.
Last edited by PerishedFraud ឵឵ on Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by davyK »

I'm a Futari fanboy, but I have fallen hook , line and sinker for original Mushihimesama since getting the Steam port.

I'd like to see Raiden Dx get some glory too. Bought that this last year for the PS1.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote:you have to understand that shmup standards and general gaming standards are not the same.
I'd say that Tyrian fits the bill as a shmup, but a bad one, with weird design priorities. :P But I get the argument that under the surface its design sensibilities are quite different from that of the typical shooters. I remember back in the day some made the argument that Ikaruga was a puzzler though, and here it is in the top 25s, after all these years. So yeah I'd say it's up to the individual whether they want to vote for it, since to the casual player at the very least, it looks and kinda plays like a shmup.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Leander »

Eyvah_Ehyeh wrote:It sounds just like the game for me, since I, at least in theory, love shmups with procedurally generated content, and upgrade systems, but haven't found even one I truly love...

I'm very much into vertical bullet hell shmups, and would enjoy more procedural content in these, plus upgrade systems, and also many extends, just like in old arcade games
Have you tried Project Starship X? It has procedurally generated levels and I really enjoyed it (like, enough to vote for it in the top 25.)
Also give Broodstar a go if you haven't tried that one (still in early access though.) If you play horizontal shmups try the demo for my game Operation STEEL, it's releasing at end of month.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Leander wrote:Have you tried Project Starship X? It has procedurally generated levels and I really enjoyed it (like, enough to vote for it in the top 25.)Also give Broodstar a go if you haven't tried that one (still in early access though.) If you play horizontal shmups try the demo for my game Operation STEEL, it's releasing at end of month.
I'll bookmark Broodstar and will check it out when it has come out, for sure. Otherwise it feels like I've tried every shmup ever with procedural elements, and I guess there just is a really specific type of game I enjoy playing, and probably would enjoy designing with Shmup Creator, if possible.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Acid »

Does Enter the Gungeon qualify for voting? It is my favorite PS4 game and I have 25 points with its name on it.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Acid wrote:Does Enter the Gungeon qualify for voting? It is my favorite PS4 game and I have 25 points with its name on it.
As I understand it, "field shooters" are allowed, hence why Geometry Wars and Robotron 2084 got my vote. Not sure if Gungeon qualifies though under that category, or any other.

You may vote for games in any of the following categories:

Non-scrolling playfield
Fixed Shooters (Space Invaders, Galaga)
Maze Shooters (Berserk, Tank Battalion)
Field Shooters (Robotron 2084, Smash TV, Geometry Wars)
including those set on a cylinder or torus (Asteroids, Star Castle)Scrolling playfield
Automatically scrolling shooters
Vertically scrolling shooters (Xevious, Cybattler)
including those set on a cylinder (Scion)Horizontally scrolling shooters (Gradius, R-Type)
including those set on a cylinder (Fantasy Zone)Isometrically scrolling shooters (Zaxxon, Viewpoint)Multi-directional auto-scrolling shooters set on a torus (Bosconian, Time Pilot '84)Manually advancing ("push-scroll") shooters
Manually advancing horizontally scrolling shooters (In The Hunt, Mr. Heli no Daibouken)
including those set on a cylinder (Defender)Manually advancing vertically scrolling shooters (OutZone, Ikari Warriors)
Manually advancing multi-directional shooters (Granada, KiKi KaiKai, Bangai-O)
including those set on a torus or infinite plane (Sinistar)Outliers or Grandfathered titles:
Every Extend series
Gyruss and clones
Tempest, clones, and sequels
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