19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread*

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Nifty
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Nifty »

Yes it does, it got voted for last year
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Does Super Locomotive qualify as a shmup? I'd argue it does, albeit a highly nontraditional one.
This probably wouldn't though
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reckon luck
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by reckon luck »

If Monolith qualifies then so does EtG, though I'd argue that the former is much more 'shmuppy'
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by WeedyRainfall »

EtG should not count. It's not a shmup. It's not even close. It's not even in the same ballpark. It's 2D. That's it.

If EtG counts then literally any game where you shoot stuff and dodge stuff should count. Call of Duty. Fortnite.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

is contra a shup
Spoiler
no, but gungeon and tyrian are. bad shmups, that is.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by To Far Away Times »

I draw the line at manually advancing scrolling. Pocky and Rocky, Twinkle Tale, Mamorukun Curse, and so on are shmups. They still play like shmups.

Monolith is a cool game, but it's as much a zelda or rougelike as it is a shmup, so to me it really shouldn't count.
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SPM
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by SPM »

What does EtG exactly do to not qualify in your opinion? For every single mechanic I may think there are widely recognizable shmups with that feature. Is the problem then the sum of its "non-shmup" parts?

The autoscroll/fixed scroll (+scoring) determines a very specific playstyle associated with "pure" shmups, having to adapt to their flow and make the most out of it, which would leave these top-down run 'n' guns out. But it should be eligible or we'll have to remove many more from the pool. Isn't Black Bird a shmup?

RNG? Unlockables? Upgrades within runs? The transitions between arenas? Twin-stick control? The dodge roll/dash? What is it?

BTW, I love EtG and it was the game that led me to play shmups again and get me back into the genre. So even for those of you who don't like it, its popular existence is great for bringing people over.
Spoiler
The same can be said of some popular eurojank... like sky force (as much as I hate it) :lol: :P
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by WeedyRainfall »

If enter the gungeon is a shmup, then is hades a shmup? Hades has melee, but so do plenty of actual shmups. Is binding of isaac a shmup?

If not, then what's different about those from etg? Do you think fucking Hades is a shmup?
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To Far Away Times
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by To Far Away Times »

EtG doesn't have the arcade-like design inherent to shmups.

In EtG, you make choices to search rooms looking for scarce ammo or choose to go straight to the boss. Its focused on exploring as much as its focused on dodging. Yes, you dodge bullets and shoot back, but that isn't truly the focus of the game. The rouge-like elements are very front and center, guiding your decision making process constantly. This combined with the lack of auto scrolling does it for me. Autoscrolling is not required for a true shmup, but it is certainly found in nearly all of them. EtG also has no time pressure, if I recall correctly - I didn't play it too much..., enemies don't constantly respawn, nothing is truly pushing you forward. Even though push scroll shmups are much rarer than autoscrollers, they still often try to introduce time pressure mechanics to keep you moving forward and not letting you control the pace. Classic push scroll walk 'em ups almost always have constant enemy respawns, timers, or both.

And like WeedyRainfall mentioned, EtG is probably closer to Hades and no one considers Hades a shmup.
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Rastan78
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Rastan78 »

Maybe part of the problem of identifying Gungeon is that it's sort of a genre hybrid. It brings in elements from shmups like the danmaku style boss patterns, but ultimately plays too much like a dungeon crawler for me to consider it a shmup.

The second I'm looking at a map and backtracking through a dungeon looking for a loot drop I don't feel like I'm playing a shmup at all.
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Rastan78
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Rastan78 »

If you take it back to the roots of genre defining games like Gauntlet and Xevious, Gungeon is clearly way more similar to Gauntlet than Xevious. Definitely more a dungeon crawler with shmup elements than the other way around.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by EmperorIng »

There are so many great arcade shooters too... Have y'all played 25 of them? It seems like I never run out of amazing shmups to play, or score, or attempt to 1cc.

The past year and a half has been a revelation that I truly love AlfaSystem games, and every one of their shmups I have played I have sunk inordinate amounts of time into. Especially Castle of Shikigami 1, which has become my most played shmup ever! I keep on coming back to it, learning and refining my progression, finding ways to speedrun the early game, finding ways (or sometimes failing) to optimize the final boss milk, or how to contend and adapt with the final boss' insane RNG. It is a perfect storm of unique, iconoclastic design choices (unintentional or not) and addictive pacing wrapped up in an atmospheric package.

And it's on steam for $8.00! Sisters Royale and Shiki 2, other games I have spent an inordinate amount of time on, have likewise given me loads of enjoyment and made me go hardcore for score like I've never gone before, culminating in a few world records in Sisters Royale (a great game you all should give a shot to). I am glad a few people like Herr Schatten were able to get sucked into game like I have. Hear their testimonials and become an ALFA MALE today!

And that's to say nothing of the new games coming out which are of unusually high quality. Like Cotton Rock n' Roll, a game that comes out of nowhere with just about everything I love in a shmup, diverse characters, addicting score system, choosing your own path, not a horrendous difficulty wall... It just is so surprising to have an arcade game released with such quality.

When I think of clinging to fart-crusted old eurojank, it's hard to wrap my head around it...
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SPM
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by SPM »

Some great points there (I don't agree with the Hades comparison though, which doesn't even play like an overhead run 'n' gun), but I still think the definition is wider and Nifty's criteria reasonable and balanced. Imagine a parallel universe with strict criteria that only allowed euroshmups XD (or who knows... only CAVE? :roll: :P ) ruling out the rest.

Anyway, I've been playing so many shmups lately (too many probably) that I've come to really appreciate this:
The autoscroll/fixed scroll (+scoring) [...] having to adapt to their flow and make the most out of it
and it's what I currently look for in the genre, to the point I won't vote for anything that doesn't meet that, regardless of my love for EtG or other games with manual scrolling. But I still think they should be eligible.

@ec I should try Shiki and Sisters Royale, your enthusiasm is contagious, but never saw the appeal on those. I'll try to join your streaming next time. Prepare your salesman speech, I'll give you one chance! hehe
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m.sniffles.esq
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

I should try Shiki and Sisters Royale, your enthusiasm is contagious, but never saw the appeal on those.

Just to give the 'ol second opinion. I haven't played a lot of Shiki (other than 2 on the Dreamcast and I always play as the "cool guy"), but Sisters may not be 'top 25' material, but it is a stupid amount of fun.
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Lethe
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Lethe »

Sisters Royale strikes me as a broadly likable game and I respect those who know it well voting for it. Wish it wasn't on Unity so it didn't look so shit.
SnS2 meanwhile appears to be a postmodern torture device, or perhaps some kind of cyperpunk noö-reactor that metabolizes boredom for inscrutable purposes. Clearly I'm not Alfa enough.

Anyway the point is, I'm going out of my comfort zone and that's what's important. Some amount of nostalgia voting is justifiable but you've really no excuse not to try to broaden your experience. Especially now that so much stuff is becoming (legally) available digitally.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Acid »

I feel like discussing my list.

[25] GG Aleste 3
I think this game was executed perfectly. I referred to it as a modern classic about a week after its release. Every detail about it feels thoughtful and intentional. Nothing overstays its welcome. New challenges feel very different from previous ones. It steadily feels increasingly epic. And it just matches my personal ability level, while not involving any mechanics that I'm uncomfortable with.

[25] Ketsui
I don't know what it is about this game, but moving the ship around somehow feels smoother and more intuitive than in any other shooter. It just feels so good to play. And I love the realistic style of the graphics. I enjoy bullet hells and this game is the most fun of those for me.

[25] Deathsmiles
The artwork rules and it matches a lot of my preferences. I think I see bullets better horizontally and I really like the speed of the ship. It's another shooter that matches my skill level.

[24] Psyvariar Revision
I really enjoy bullet grazing and this game is very creatively built around the mechanic. I also really dig the simple, bold, bright bullet patterns.

[24] Battle Garegga
I'm being a little dishonest with how many points I gave this game. I thoroughly enjoy the gameplay and like the art but the game goes over my head. I have a good idea of what goes into playing this game well, and it is too much for me. I respect this game as an all time great, so I feel compelled to give it a few extra points than I might otherwise have.

[24] Dangun Feveron
I like slow moving ships so why do I like a game where you either fly fast or die? This game is like a drug. The music, the voice over, the speed; it is unapologetically in your face fun. I play for survival though. Collecting every dancing robot or whatever they are is a little too much. Going back down to one-point-per for one miss puts too much pressure on me, so I rather just sit back and take in the action.

[22] Gundemonium Recollection
This might be the first shooter I put an honest effort into getting good at. If there was something to beat I was going to do it. It may be the reason I like bullet grazing and feel so at home with horizontal shooters. I also think the final boss is amazing.

[22] Hitogata Happa
I played this soon after the above selection. I really like the idea of resource management with ships and the kamikaze mechanic. I don't know if this game is considered hard or not, but beating the true last boss on the hardest difficulty was satisfying.

[20] Mahou Daisakusen
Fantastic art direction. I appreciate its straight forward gameplay. And its another game that simply suits my skill level.

[20] Ginga Force
I really like how uniquely this game plays. I don't usually play shooters for score, but this one made me want to do it. I wonder if I'm still on any of the leader boards. Not that there were that many people ever on them.

[12] Game Tengoku
I enjoy novelty. I like silly and weird. This game hits that mark while being a really good shooter.

[08] Raiden
I like Raiden for the same reason everybody who likes Raiden likes Raiden

[06] ESP Ra.De.
Maybe a weird thing to mention first, but I love the color scheme. It's just pleasant to look at. And it has damn good bullet hell action.

[04] Cotton Reboot
Tea Time!

[01] Power Strike II
I first played this in M2's Aleste Collection. I immediately liked it. I was wondering which game should round out my list and I decided to simply pick the one I most wanted to play at that very moment.


Anybody familiar with PS4 offerings will recognize the recency bias of my list. I played a lot of shmups as a kid but I don't think I could really rate them fairly. But I wanted to give some of my favorites that might not be many other's a little boost on the great list this website makes every year.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by M.Knight »

EmperorIng : I'm pleasantly surprised to see Shiki 1 soar all the way to the top of your ranking, even above Giga Wing 2! Well it makes given how much time you put into it. It's a rather similar feeling for me as I discovered how exciting the game is for scoring. :)

Yeah all the Shikigami games and Sisters Royale are very fun, I definitely recommend them. Playable characters with original and unique playstyles, a scoring system that pushes you to take a lot of risks without being all-or-nothing, and lots and lots of coins to collect.
Acid, if you like grazing and haven't tried them yet you might want to give them a go as well!
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Krushal wrote:[20] [Mountain of Faith]
[20] [Shining Shooting Star]

[15] [Double Dealing Character]
[15] [Concealed the Conclusion]
[15] [DoDonPachi]
[15] [Soldier Blade]
[15] [Gradius]
[15] [Blue Wish Resurrection Plus]

[10] [Embodiment of Scarlet Devil]
[10] [Espgaluda]
[10] [Sorcer Striker]
[10] [Cho Ren Sha 68k]

[5] [Batsugun Special]
[5] [Eden's Aegis]
[5] [Recca]
As someone who doesn't follow Touhou stuff, I thought this was a troll post and half these names were made up.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by To Far Away Times »

I saw that and at first glance thought it was going to be a touhou only list. Then I remembered I had a few 2hu's in my list so...
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by DMC »

"Concealed the Conclusion" sounds very made up, yes! :)
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by BIL »

Conceal The Conclusion: Wanpaku Monica Daisakusen is a noted late-90s shootathon! :3

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DAMMIT, YOU HAD ONE GODDAMN JOB
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To Far Away Times
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by To Far Away Times »

Concealed the Conclusion is legitimately a very good game. I like it better than most of the official 2hu's.

There are four shot types, and each shot type gets its own unique first three stages and bosses. There are multiple endings, and the game has a cool way of working in TLB boss patterns after you 1CC it. It also has built in spell practice modes for really efficient practice. The boss patterns are really nice, and the stages aren't an afterthought.

Just playing through it a few times, it seems like a ton of effort went into it.

It's also free, so you might as well try it. You need app locale or similar to run it these days and it runs on an older version of danmakufu, but it isn't too hard to get running.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by EmperorIng »

M.Knight wrote:EmperorIng : I'm pleasantly surprised to see Shiki 1 soar all the way to the top of your ranking, even above Giga Wing 2! Well it makes given how much time you put into it. It's a rather similar feeling for me as I discovered how exciting the game is for scoring. :) !
I got to be true to myself! I think with the exception of perhaps Dariusburst, which is further down my list, all the shmups on my top echelon are the ones I have put the most time into. Hours and hours and hours, with loads more to discover and route.

Giga Wing 2 and Psyvariar Revision have the added benefit of me still needing to get good enough to 1cc them (in Rev's case, tlb 1cc), but the failure to do so has not discouraged me but rather motivates me as I play and optimize my scoring in those games.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by DMC »

BIL wrote:Conceal The Conclusion: Wanpaku Monica Daisakusen is a noted late-90s shootathon! :3

Image

DAMMIT, YOU HAD ONE GODDAMN JOB
Spoiler
Image
About my list. I haven't played many of the 80s oldies lately, so I replaced them this year with some 90s console shooters.
So note to self is to re-examine many of the 80s classic for next year. I think they deserve a bit more credit on these lists, at least some honorable mentions.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Krushal »

Thought my list might raise some eyebrows :)
What can I say, Touhou really drew me in over the past two years or so, and the two fangames listed I enjoy more than any of the main series.

Shining Shooting Star has a nice signature mechanic, fantastic music and art and some very memorable sections.
Concealed the Conclusion, in addition to the points To Far Away Times mentioned above, also is noteworthy by being an early example of a great fangame (2006).

Could justify my list further, but I won't bother. Not trying to be controversial, just honest :shrugs:
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

I'm still surprised about the fact that almost everyone's top list has a game I don't recognize. Sometimes I realize that I have in fact heard about it but just forgot about it because it wasn't for me, but sometimes the entry is completely new to me, and I've been around for almost 20 years - on and off. Cool to see such diversity, even if there's often a clear top 25 when the dust settles. Very seldom is there a title I'm actually interested in checking out beyond watching a bit on youtube, but sometimes, you know, a title piques my interest. What I'm saying is that it would be cool with a PC port for Aka & Blu. :D
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

Eyvah_Ehyeh wrote:I'm still surprised about the fact that almost everyone's top list has a game I don't recognize. Sometimes I realize that I have in fact heard about it but just forgot about it because it wasn't for me, but sometimes the entry is completely new to me, and I've been around for almost 20 years - on and off. Cool to see such diversity, even if there's often a clear top 25 when the dust settles. Very seldom is there a title I'm actually interested in checking out beyond watching a bit on youtube, but sometimes, you know, a title piques my interest. What I'm saying is that it would be cool with a PC port for Aka & Blu. :D
Not Divine Sealing? For shame.
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

PerishedFraud ឵឵ wrote:Not Divine Sealing? For shame.
I think a youtube playthrough will suit me just fine. :wink:
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Haddock »

I want to talk about my #1 pick.

I always feel kind of weird calling Radiant Silvergun my favorite shmup of all time because it's such a weird game in many aspects. It isn't even the shmup I pick up and play the most, that would be more Cave's offerings or something like Soukyugurentai. I just really appreciate RS for it's commitment to what I can only describe as "epicness", from the orchestral OST to the surprisingly nice story, the combination of Danmaku(ish) elements and more old shmup tropes etc. It's like the final fantasy of shmups, it throws everything at you and isn't willing to compromise. That also makes it an acquired taste, but that's a good in my mind. In a lot of ways I hate how shmups have become template-y in their design with a lot of (later) Cave games and such. I would rather have RS and Ikaruga's then another DDP game that's basically DPP+ (controversial perhaps but whatever), even if I don't like the a game I always appreciate uniqueness regardless.

Also tying the scoring system to survival is genius imo, and again shows full commitment to the design vision. It's also why I think Ikaruga is a much more boring game if you're just playing for survival; the enemies aren't very dangerous and just casually appear ready to be chained in the first two stages, it's very boring unless you are trying to go for score/chaining. RS doesn't have this problem since you're forced to chain. Now to be fair, the whole survival/chaining connection in RS is a bit overstated. You can get a secret chain going in the first stage early on up until the boss and if you 100% destruct him you're already well on your way to have strong weapons. Furthermore, just destroying the bosses to get that 100% extraction rate will power up weapons sufficiently regardless so chaining isn't even that big of deal if you just do some casual chaining in later stages. Just make sure to use your weapons in a balanced matter so they're all powered up!

Of course no game is perfect. RS I would say is much like a Wagner opera, it's great but it isn't something you want to do every day. You have periods where you get absorbed in it and do nothing else, but it isn't very pick and play. Another thing is that some of the bullet patterns are hard to see causing deaths that could be avoided otherwise.

So yeah...thoughts nobody asked for :lol:
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Re: 19th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Threa

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

"Also tying the scoring system to survival"

This is a really underutilized design choice in shmups, I feel. In my top picks, noiz2sa and parsec47, you're always willing to take more chances in order to score more, because you need those extra lives that come every 500 000 points, since you're gonna be dying often (and also want to score high). It's such a simple concept, and can be explored in many different ways. In cave shmups, even though I love them, I feel it's the opposite - when I take more chances, I just die more often, and don't get as far. Not nearly as satisfying for me, since I make what I feel are "stupid" mistakes all the time, and don't get to feel nearly as good as in parsec47 when I'm dodging super hard patterns all the time, dying often, but also recovering just as often due to another explosive round of taking risks, scoring high, and making a come back.
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