Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

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Fingolfin
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Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by Fingolfin »

I wanted to thank all of the many many good people here who are so dedicated to shooting games and so generous with their help!!

Hibachi bless you all!

Thanks

Prometheus
Icarus
Plasmo
TLB
EOJ
BIL
Rastan78
Gajinpunch
Despatche
EmperorIng
Trap15
Sengoku Strider
AC Seraph
cave hermit
BareKnuckleRoo

You have helped an old fart get a little better, understand a little more and see this long time hobby and pursuit of ours as worthy as I have/had always felt/believed/known.

With just the glimmerings of beginning to understand rank and actually starting games with briefest of plans/preconsidered “outlines“ for that run, I am slowly improving by means of trying to implement what the great masters and excellent teachers have explained and illuminated here!

You have all helped me break my old habit of refusing autofire unless it was built in and for that alone I thank you heartily and whole heartedly! My old frame — wrists, hands, arms, back, hips etc — appreciates it very much!! All hail the use and benefits of autofire!!

Most of all are the wonderful and comprehensive guides and strategies for improving as a player of STGs by Icarus and many others as contributors

The generosity and offering of help and insights so numerous and so in depth are to be very much commended!! Thank you all very much!

Thanks to all who contribute here @ shmups.system11

This place is awesome!!

EDIT x5 cleaning up: a couple of additions/changes and still more clean up of spellings
Last edited by Fingolfin on Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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blazinglazers69
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by blazinglazers69 »

Wow, how wholesome. I agree, this is a really cool board. Glad you're having fun :) That's always the most important thing.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Fingolfin wrote:You have all helped me break my old habit of refusing autofire unless it was built in and for that alone I thank you heartily and whole heartedly! My old frame — wrists, hands, arms, back, hips etc — appreciates it very much!! All hail the use and benefits of autofire!!
I really hope more people become aware that button mashing is not a feature of the genre and that quality arcades in Japan will actually provide autofire buttons for older games that didn't have it built in before it started becoming a standard feature in shmups. Removing the mashing aspect, especially for games that encourage/require a fast, strenuous mash speed nonstop, makes them more accessible and lets you focus on the dodging and scoring aspects rather than trying to avoid a repetitive stress injury.
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MathU
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by MathU »

On the other hand, games that basically shoot for you can remove the focus on shooting, which may not always be desirable. A reduction in precision control over shot placement can also reduce possibilities for interesting scoring systems. Plus, button mashing can even be a pleasurable activity with the right setup and there's no rigorous evidence that it results in repetitive stress injuries. Comparing it with genuinely straining activities such as pulling a heavy lever on a daily basis is a bit hyperbolic. Perhaps a decision to use autofire should really be made on a case-by-case basis rather than presuming everything without it built in is badly designed.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
Always seeking netplay fans to play emulated arcade games with.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Perhaps a decision to use autofire should really be made on a case-by-case basis rather than presuming everything without it built in is badly designed.
Perhaps shaming people with arthritis for not wanting to engage with a bad, archaic game mechanic isn't a hill worth dying on.

I mean, I guess I don't begrudge anyone who prefers tapping to not tapping; I know folks who play Cave shmups as 2 button games and don't use the rapid button at all, and that's fine, but I really dislike not having the option to just use rapid fire. I've yet to encounter a shmup where mashing is legitimately fun and adds to the game in a meaningful way. The best example I can think of is Thunder Blaster/Lethal Thunder by Irem, where your shot power is based on raising a bar by mashing quickly, but even there it's more fun to use rapid fire and just focus on using the sub weapon that drains the meter but cancels bullets, timing it to escape from enemy attacks.

Even for genres where I would not use it since you're not encouraged to constantly hammer on the same button to keep the screen filled with a barrage of shots (2D beat 'em ups, platformers like Mega Man) I would say it is nice to offer as an accessibility option, and is a basic expectation nowadays in emulators in part for that reason. It doesn't generally impact game balance either unless the game doesn't cap fire rate and you set the mash speed to something that isn't humanly achievable (30 hz autofire for something like Darius Gaiden which is clearly a bit silly).
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MathU
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by MathU »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Perhaps shaming people with arthritis for not wanting to engage with a bad, archaic game mechanic isn't a hill worth dying on.
Point to where that was done please. You know, running is a pretty fun activity for some people... Would you call running a bad, archaic use of the legs and tell everyone only good races provide automobiles, to play knight in shining armor for paraplegics?

Whether you like it or not, a great deal of thoughtful 2D shooter developers over several decades made conscious, deliberate decisions to not make shooting a fully automated aspect of their games. It's one thing to say you should feel no shame in using autofire if your hands aren't in the best of health, it's quite another to claim those games had bad design because they weren't intended to be played that way. "Modern" bullet hell paradigms are not the final word in shooter design.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
Always seeking netplay fans to play emulated arcade games with.
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Rastan78
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by Rastan78 »

Darius Gaiden is always that divisive example when it comes to autofire just like Garregga gets singled as the game about rank for whatever reason. Most of the arguments around auto in DG I've seen have been overly simplistic and not made by anyone who has actually played the game at the highest level with auto on. Basically no one outside Japan has.

The discussion is usually black and white and revolves around one way to play being correct and the other being lesser. Yes with auto the game becomes relatively easy for survival and certain bosses can be cheesed, but it's really about score attack if you're choosing to play with auto.

Don't believe me, just try to get max score on stage 1. Anything over 230k before the boss not counting silver medals. You'll likely be shocked how tricky it is even with 30 hz if you think you already know this simple 2 min. level. It's all about manipulating the midboss' movements and it ain't that easy.

Any route that goes through the giant squid "Titanic Lance" becomes about full rank boosting. Full rank boost means holding down 30 hz auto at all times as well as milking all bosses to the 4 minute mark bc time passed is also a huge contributor to raising rank. Cheesing out bosses quickly will reduce your score due to the lack of milking but moreso the lack of rank increase. It's all about boosting the squid's durability so that when you start milking his most lucrative form he won't die prematurely. Except now you have to go through the rest of the game at max rank. It's not the hardest thing out there, but it's not exactly trivial either.

There is plenty of evidence that the devs considered autofire play: #1 There's a rank system that increases when you hold auto. #2 There's an on screen shot limit that often only comes into play with higher shot rates. #3 There are scoring opportunities as basic as boss parts destroyed that are practically impossible to get without auto. #4 There's an official superplay LaserDisc (Yes LaserDisc) released by Taito in 1995 that showcases high level autofire on play.

TL;DR There are strategies and nuances to the game that come out with full auto just as there are things that are more interesting without like getting to see all boss patterns when playing for survival clears.

At the end of the day this petty argument hurts the already small community of players who care about this or any other game. Better to just show some respect to other players than draw some bullshit line in the sand around autofire.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Rastan78 wrote:There is plenty of evidence that the devs considered autofire play:
Don't forget that the attract demo for Darius Gaiden shows it being played with inhumanly fast autofire, which is a bit of a middle finger to players as far as I'm concerned.

edit: I ignored this thread but stumbled on it again recently
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Perhaps shaming people with arthritis for not wanting to engage with a bad, archaic game mechanic isn't a hill worth dying on.
MathU wrote:Point to where that was done please.
Sure, here you go:
MathU wrote:Plus, button mashing can even be a pleasurable activity... Comparing it with genuinely straining activities
Just because you personally don't find it straining doesn't mean other people don't.
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Tue May 17, 2022 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MathU
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by MathU »

It always has to come back to Darius Gaiden, doesn't it? You know there's other great old games out there that get busted up by turbofire hacks. And it's super weird when Darius Gaiden comes up in a discussion about whether or not to use autofire because it already has autofire! The debate with Darius Gaiden isn't really about autofire vs no autofire, it's about what constitutes a balanced shooting rate.
Rastan78 wrote:Most of the arguments around auto in DG I've seen have been overly simplistic and not made by anyone who has actually played the game at the highest level with auto on. Basically no one outside Japan has.
Likewise, most of the arguments discouraging normal play in Darius Gaiden I have seen around here have been dogmatic and authority-driven and not made by anyone who has actually played the game at the highest level with rapidfire off.

Everything you've just argued about adaptive difficulty manipulation applies to non-rapidfire play too, and in some ways when you're playing without rapidfire assistance the adaptive difficulty management is actually deeper, so that's not an argument for or against.
Rastan78 wrote:There is plenty of evidence that the devs considered autofire play: #1 There's a rank system that increases when you hold auto. #2 There's an on screen shot limit that often only comes into play with higher shot rates. #3 There are scoring opportunities as basic as boss parts destroyed that are practically impossible to get without auto. #4 There's an official superplay LaserDisc (Yes LaserDisc) released by Taito in 1995 that showcases high level autofire on play.
#1. There is an adaptive difficulty system that does not increase when you hold the shot down with the normal firing rate; instead, it only increases every time you press and release the shot button. That is not a point in favor of intended turbo rapidfire, if anything it's a point in favor of punishing button mashing because the developers wanted people to shoot at the rate they programmed into the game.
#2 is a simple reality of preventing hardware slowdown and is again not a clear argument in favor of developer intention on shooting rate.
#3 Indeed there are, but the same is true of most games when you add capabilities the player is unable to do on their own.
#4 Much like autofire hacks, superplays are made and released after development, not during.

Now for some much stronger points against it being intended:
#1 Rapidfire hacks mess up captured miniboss shooting, the system is designed to work with long-duration button holding, not rapid presses and releases
#2 Rapidfire hacks mess up the tracking shot system at the orange-wave shot level, another system designed to work with long-duration button holding, not rapid presses and releases
#3 The very large amount of boss attacks and stage attacks you will never see with the awesome ability ~30Hz gives you to cut down threats before they can do anything. This is not trivial and people who downplay it don't understand just how much of the game they're missing.
Rastan78 wrote:At the end of the day this petty argument hurts the already small community of players who care about this or any other game. Better to just show some respect to other players than draw some bullshit line in the sand around autofire.
I don't think robust discussion challenging dogmatic paradigms hurts any community. There is too much groupthink on this forum at times and if anything that is what discourages discussion and makes it more insular.

Rastan78, you and I have been having some good discussions in the strategy thread so I know you're up for this: I challenge you to pick a route and play it for score without rapidfire assistance with the same intensity you've put into your recent Curious Chandelier challenge, and see if it changes your opinion at all on developer intention.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
Always seeking netplay fans to play emulated arcade games with.
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Starfighter
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by Starfighter »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Perhaps shaming people with arthritis for not wanting to engage with a bad, archaic game mechanic isn't a hill worth dying on.
This is not the first time I've paused and recognized your very adult and inclusive approach to this genre. I like you.
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MathU
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by MathU »

Attacking straw men is actually pretty childish.
Of course, that's just an opinion.
Always seeking netplay fans to play emulated arcade games with.
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Rastan78
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Re: Thanks much for the great help, insights, wisdom!!

Post by Rastan78 »

I have played a good amount without auto but decided to stick with auto on as my preferred way to play this game.

I do use auto to break the midboss firing and to take it a step further I discovered the trick used to have double 30 hz buttons on odd/even frames to ensure you can consistently do so on every playthrough. Did the devs intend this? No but if you want to compete with the highest scores it's just the way the game is played for auto on. Enjoy little game breaking tricks like that? Cool. Go for it. If you don't or hold the default game balance as the gold standard play auto off. It's really simple.
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