Safe spots... What do you think?

[SPM]

So... What's your take on safe spots? Do you actively search for them? enjoy findind them by chance and exploiting them? or do you tend to avoid using them even if you know where they are?

I have a mixed opinion here. When some patterns seem impossible and I try anything to overcome them, finding a safe spot usually feels good. But I usually don't like them because they render some sections kind of mindless and boring, and if I can, I'll avoid them even if that may cost me the run

Edit: My English...

[chempop]

Best save spot:

[davyK]

I presume you mean safe spots?

[SPM]

Okay any opinion besides being jerks? hahaha

[Rastan78]

I'll use any broken thing I can find or learn about including safe spots as long as it doesn't break the rules used for scoring. That being said in a game I really like I'll learn the real pattern as well just for the hell of it.

I came out of playing fighting games much more than shmups in the arcade and in that old school scene there was very much a mentality of only scrubs and whiners complain about "cheap" tactics while good players learn and adapt. Lamenting the way a game is being played by others rather than just dealing with it was considered to be the clarion call of a true "scrub." There was absolutely no sense of respecting the developers "true" intentions (who of course have no way of foreseeing all expert players will discover) or playing with any sort of gentlemen's agreement on rules. For better or worse this seems to be the prevailing mindset in Japanese arcades as well.

Of course there are things in both shmups and fighting games that are so broken as to be deemed off limits by their communities, but it has to be something very egregious like an invincibility glitch.


The best safe spot.

[Sumez]

Ideally you always want the player to actively react to something, so safespots should be kept at a minimum - they are rarely intentional.
But I don't mind safespots that only last a single pattern, and if you don't know exactly when said pattern is coming out, watching for it and then rushing to the safespot really isn't much different from dodging an aimed shot.
As long as you don't have the player sitting safely in one spot for long periods of time, you're probably good.

edit: Sorry, I was answering from the perspective of a game designer. If a game has a safespot I'll abuse it no matter how cheap it feels. It's the game's fault for having them, and isn't really much different from any other manner a game might accidentally be "too easy".

[Rastan78]

There's a certain element of swag to some safe spots. It's almost more impressive than beating a boss the normal way whether the safe spot is actually hard to lock in or not.

I don't even think this is all the safe spots for this boss. There's another one right down by the bottom hatch for example.
https://youtu.be/gHv4RWlUweQ?t=169

[Shatterhand]

When developing Sophstar, gametesters found some safespots I didn't predict, while others I found myself while testing the game. And at least one I made intentionally but it only fully works on the easier level settings

I really took this approach... if the safespot lasts for just a single pattern, it's ok to have it. I think it's kinda fun to find a "hole" in the game and exploit it, if it doesn't completely kill the game or that area.

One of the testers found a safe spot in a boss for a pattern that will get you instantly killed right at the start of the next pattern, so you have to move really quickly to avoid getting killed. With that one, I said "Ok, leave it like that. If the player can use it properly, good for him".

In one boss there's not exactly a "safe spot", but a cheap way to abuse your tiny hitbox to avoid a certain attack. And, again, I felt the same "If the player figures this out, he will feel really smart by using it, and there's still a shitload of bullets to avoid. So, whatever, keep it like that". When I test it I abuse that all that time and I still feel the boss is challenging enough. So I keep it.

Then there was another boss that had a place where you could just stand still at a place and not get one single attack from him hitting you on his first form. That I changed so you couldn't sit on that spot anymore

[To Far Away Times]

In some games like R-Type 1, I'm hopping from one safe spot to the next. Almost blurs the line between safe spots and routing.

[DMC]

I have posted it before, but the "amazing shmup gameplay video" deserves to be mentioned in a dedicated safe sport thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxTGXGuyA2Q

I like the occasional safe spot when done well. I especially like those that have some aesthetic beauty too them. For instance, in Strikers 1945 II stage 1-6 you can just stay at the bottom center and enjoy watching the symmetric bullets patterns unfold around you.
https://youtu.be/599ubitYGq4?t=588

[LordHypnos]

I love a good safe spot. I don't really see it as much different from any other kind of tactical play or even routing, really. It's also pretty unusual for a game to be completely trivialized by safe spots.

There are also some safe spots that aren't worth using for various reasons. One example would be during the boss of Mars Matrix stage 5 (i remember making a video of this, so I'll link that later). I remember finding it to be more reliable to just dodge the pattern than to try to find the spot which was a micro-tap away from the center, IIRC. There's one a little later in that boss fight that's really easy to find, though, but also appears to be pretty intentional (the pattern is literally aimed around you).

Come to think of it, there's supposedly one of the flower pattern of the S6 boss that I never bothered learning because it either doesn't work at all in the DC version, or is just much harder to find, but now that I'm playing the AC version, maybe I'll try to learn this. I'll also try to find a video of this when I get a chance.

EDIT:
Mars Matrix safe spots:

• Mars Matrix safe spot #1- Note that if you wait for it to die from your shot or even piercing cannon it will probably lose you a bit of time bonus and maybe a tiny bit of exp. The way that I actually do the 3rd car is like this.
  Mars Matrix Safe spot #2 As long as you stay more or less in the middle left-to-right, and don't move left or right you'll almost always be safe. I usually do this higher up on the screen these days
  Mars Matrix safe spot #3 TBH, this seems like barely a safe spot, as you apparently have to move up slightly at the end. I have never tried to use this one because word on the street is that it doesn't work in the Dreamcast port, but I should learn it now that I'm mostly playing the AC version.

[Creamy Goodness]

On principle not really a fan, but in practice I usually use them if I know where they are. My biggest issue is depending on them may result in not being able to handle tougher situations where they are not an option.

[MathU]

The fact that you can simply fly behind the stage 3 boss in Image Fight will always be a mar on what is otherwise a masterpiece.
On the other hand it's hard to criticize the stage 4 boss of R-Type II, where finding the safe spot seems to be the entire point.

Salamander also has a lame safe spot for the bouncing blob boss that was rightfully fixed in its Lifeforce rebalancing.

[Marc]

Man, I didn't know there was one for that shitty Salamander boss, but you can bet I'm looking it up and using it.

[Jeneki]

On the flip side, there's the volcano dragon from In The Hunt that's obviously designed to use safe spots. Time over = death in that game, so you need to jump in and out of it.

[davyK]

When going for a survival 1CC, I'll take any safe spot I can find!!!

Playing for score is a different story though. Probably best trying to avoid them unless the relevant bullet patterns are just too tough to dodge.

[Rastan78]

Man, I didn't know there was one for that shitty Salamander boss, but you can bet I'm looking it up and using it.

That's the only way I've ever known how to actually beat that thing. Otherwise it's such a ridiculous difficulty spike early in the game.

[Jeneki]

Back when I was learning Salamander, every (non-tas) replay I found used some variation of safe spot. Nobody actually fights that part. But if you don't need the lives elsewhere, I suppose you can burn a few there. The time I cleared the game I didn't no-miss it.

[BIL]

Salamander's third boss can be counteracted by shoving your Vic in his mouth. (fresh credit @ full defaults, PS4 ACA ver - works on PCB, MAME and the PS1 conversion, too) This'll lock up his blue balls, greatly relieving pressure down below and allowing you to secure a prompt climax. Note the handy orange lines just under the core - you can get close, but don't go beyond, or you'll explode in his face.

Don't ever do the ol' "play a credit, die at the st4 boss, then start a new credit and it won't shoot" trick. My pastor told me you go to hell IRL for that.

RE thread, I like Silent Hill 2's enigmatic red square. Elegantly creepy, with their strange reflective quality, and James's unsettling comment at his first encounter with one ("Feels like someone's groping around inside my skull...") - and the climactic instance is a nice bit of optical trickery. Was used as the cover of the NTSCJ PS2 release, in fact.

Sorry SPM Take heart - GEARSHITERS will become forum legend, I am certain!

Seconding Rastan, Sumez and Hypnos. My mission is to kill these motherfuckers by any means necessary. If the devs leave a bunch of handy exploits lying around, that's a shame, but it ain't my problem. The essential joy of hardcore is "How can I survive this?" What are the enemy's capabilities and weaknesses? What are mine? How about the terrain, Rank, useful audiovisual cues, etc? My favourite arcade-styled games demand this sort of close, active analysis. Sometimes things break under scrutiny.

Like DMC, I make a distinction for pattern design that's clearly meant to accommodate aggressive, learned attack. Remembering a lot of such instances in Raiden, getting back up to speed with the ACA version this week. A blistering precision-machined shitstorm with a nice ship-width aperture to dart into for pointblank speedkill fury (at risk of getting shredded yourself, if you're sloppy) is quite different from the stultifying Amazing Shump Gameplay of legend. (I am so delighted others remember that video )

Speaking of Salamander, I don't necessarily dislike stuff like its famous third stage pleasure cruise through the raging bowels of hell. That shit feels good, and looks+sounds AMAZIN In those cases, a safespot can feel more like a breather than an exploit.

[Makoto_Nanaya]

Good lord...are there any safe spots in the DFK laser wheels?

[SPM]

Interesting answers. I certainly use them when trying to get an elusive 1CC of one of these bastards (or if I don't enjoy a particular pattern). But that's only after I've kind of lost all hope in getting the 1CC without them. (And the same goes for using bombs). I guess it depends on whether I just want to play casually or achieve some goal.

I like the occasional safe spot when done well. I especially like those that have some aesthetic beauty too them. For instance, in Strikers 1945 II stage 1-6 you can just stay at the bottom center and enjoy watching the symmetric bullets patterns unfold around you.
https://youtu.be/599ubitYGq4?t=588

Argh I remember always bombing right there until I watched a replay! Without it that part is impossible. But it's really short, so I don't mind. The next safe spot at the bottom left corner I tend to avoid though.

On the other hand (and something already mentioned in this thread), I like the safe spot in 1-7 https://youtu.be/599ubitYGq4?t=729 because it's not easy to get there, so it feels rewarding.

The fact that you can simply fly behind the stage 3 boss in Image Fight will always be a mar on what is otherwise a masterpiece.

That's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind when I opened this thread. BTW, I need to play that game ASAP! Will try not to use that spot

On the other hand it's hard to criticize the stage 4 boss of R-Type II, where finding the safe spot seems to be the entire point.

Did you mean the 5th boss? In that case I still think there's a difference between exploiting it to time out the boss and taking advantage of them to destroy it! #FeelsGood

Sorry SPM Take heart - GEARSHITERS will become forum legend, I am certain!

Shit... Good memory

[Ghegs]

I like safe spots. Feels like a PRO GAMER MOVE if I happen to discover one. That said, there can be unsatisfying safe spots, but I find it difficult to accurately draw the line between a good one and a bad one. But at the end of the day, I subscribe to the

My mission is to kill these motherfuckers by any means necessary. If the devs leave a bunch of handy exploits lying around, that's a shame, but it ain't my problem.

-school of thought.

[BIL]

When you've got a job to do, you've gotta do it well~
YOU GOTTA GIVE THE OTHER FELLA HELL

RE: Salamander Blue Balls, copy-paster reminded me of PEG's Salamander Deluxe Pack SP-Hard ALL, where he just kills the bastard.

[Rastan78]

Damn he made that look way easier than it actually is. So easy to get clipped by a random blue ball tea bag. The longer the boss stays alive it just gets exponentially harder as the screen just keeps getting busier. It's quick kill or not at all.

I remember reading an anecdote, probably on shmuplations, where an old school shmup dev was talking about witnessing players in the arcade using unforeseen save spots. His reaction was basically like oh shit we accidentally left in another one?

[BIL]

Brings to mind Tokuro Fujiwara (Makaimura designer)'s talk of going to loke tests, scoping safespots/techs, then coding them out.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sorry SPM Take heart - GEARSHITERS will become forum legend, I am certain!

I lay awake at night wondering if I'm a horrible person for having given away the secret of changing thread titles.

This is my fave save spot vibe. Could listen to this for ages.

BIL wrote:
My mission is to kill these motherfuckers by any means necessary. Image If the devs leave a bunch of handy exploits lying around, that's a shame, but it ain't my problem.

-school of thought.

Ditto. If there's an exploit to use, people are eventually going to discover and use it, so you might as well learn to do so if you want to put serious scores on the scoreboard. If you want to play without those exploits you also have the option to do so. There are plenty of games with safe spots where it's still going to be plenty difficult even when using those.

Speaking of save spots... :3

RE3 knife-only runs are pretty manageable, but the one forced encounter against Nemesis where you gotta drop his health entirely with stabs is FAR less of a hassle when you discover there's part of the scenery you can get him stuck on and then just do mid-height stabs. He's still tough either way as he occasionally gets himself unstuck, and the hospital sequence afterwards is still by far the hardest part if going for a single-segment, no saves knife run, so why the hell not exploit Nemmy?

[BIL]

^^^ Was recently watching some high-end RE4 play, where the dude had dubbed in the RE2 save room BGM. Best of the lot. The bleak elegiac sound is kinda too strong for RE4's more unashamedly goofy bent, heh. WHADDAYA SELLIN'? AHHHR... I'LL BOY IT ATTA HOIGH PROICE

[Rastan78]

https://youtu.be/7oXx0qwe0wc

[BIL]

Those guys had some balls BITD, the FF12 skit almost got one of them attacked by an angry dad. Wouldn't try the Merchant shtick without his resurrection ability!