Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/21

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Ms. Tea
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

I've contacted them before via their contact form (https://city-connection.co.jp/contact.html) and they've always been very responsive and helpful. Be polite and to the point and I think you'll probably get a response. Hoping they do decide to do something about this.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

I think the point about the market is quite correct. I suspect companies like City Connection post up these old games in collections for nostalgia jerking oldbeards who don't play games more than casually. It would explain why lag apparently is never a concern for them, or why level/stage select weren't in previous ports. I think their mentality is more to provide old games cheaply, and as long as the game is technically functional then they consider their job done. I understand that the games on Saturn would never run faster than 6 or so frames of lag, but they could have at least tried to preserve the original lag without adding more. Even 8 frames of input lag would have been understandable. That'd be the original 6-7 plus 1 frame of switch lag. Still rough (approx. dragon blaze zerodiv levels), but not 11.

I mean, if you don't try to 1cc games, how much do you notice or care about the lag? Checkmate shmuppers! Boomers can feed credits until the end and then put the game away with a nostalgic tear in their eyes. I guess this forum is playing games wrong! Trying to master them and shit... How dumb. True gaming is about feeding quarters until you see the last boss blow up. Lag doesn't matter with infinite lives amirite?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by trap15 »

Sima Tuna wrote:True gaming is about feeding quarters until you see the last boss blow up
trap15 wrote:At least on Guardian Force it appears to be 10 continues max.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by To Far Away Times »

Goddamn 11 frames is like twice as bad as what's accceptable. All I care about is if I can feel the delay in the inputs and that happens at around 6 frames or so.

Shitty Connection strikes again.

That's a real shame becuase I did enjoy these games when I tried them years ago and I probably would pick them up if this gets fixed.
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pablumatic
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by pablumatic »

I know PS5s are hard to get, but has any testing been done on one?

Sometimes bad performing PS4 games do a lot better when running with the faster PS5 hardware.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

trap15 wrote:
Sima Tuna wrote:True gaming is about feeding quarters until you see the last boss blow up
trap15 wrote:At least on Guardian Force it appears to be 10 continues max.
10 continues should be enough for a casual playthrough, right?

... Right?
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EmperorIng
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by EmperorIng »

Guardian Force becomes (IMO) insanely brutal towards the last three stages or so and it took me every bit of those 10 continues back in the day to survive. Good luck soldier!
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by trap15 »

Yeah, the last handful of stages are quite difficult, it's no slouch of a game.
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Ms. Tea
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

Looks like Japanese gamers have been posting about the input lag too: https://twitter.com/kimagreGaming/statu ... 8337731584 Wonder if it's on City Connection's radar.
harborline765
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

Ms. Tea wrote:Looks like Japanese gamers have been posting about the input lag too: https://twitter.com/kimagreGaming/statu ... 8337731584 Wonder if it's on City Connection's radar.
Those are the crowdfunded testing results from the last page of the thread ;)

But it’s good to see them get wider awareness, hopefully CC take note.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Kino »

Sima Tuna wrote: I understand that the games on Saturn would never run faster than 6 or so frames of lag
Guardian Force is 6 frames on arcade, Saturn's around 4. Still enough to mess you up when you're trying to bomb on reaction against certain boss patterns, but you don't feel as if you're underwater the whole time.

Cotton 2/Boomerang's input lag never gets discussed since nobody plays them, but it appears to be a frame or two less? Chalk that up to it not having the issue Guardian Force had, where the Saturn code was written first and the input reader wasn't optimized for the ST-V version. Both games do however seem to share the other "dumb sources of lag" that Trap15 was alluding to.

I never found it noticeable in the Cottons like I did Guardian Force, perhaps since you're doing more hadouken motions and flinging enemies around than you are just straight dodging & shooting. You kind of expect a bit of 'startup' there.
harborline765
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

Cotton 2 certainly feels like around 4 frames to me when I play on Saturn using my CRT, slightly more when I use my 8ms Sony Bravia from the mid 2000s. The new release is way off that, of course.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sonic R »

Does anyone know if there is less input lag if playing on PlayStation 5?
I wish to acquire these games, but not sure if I wanted Switch or PlayStation version - then to hear of input lag issue I think to consider PS4 version

It would be good to know if it might help playing on PS5
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

I heard it's bad on both.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

Why do the Saturn versions have less latency than STV? And is this true for other STV games as well?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by AyeYoYoYO »

As someone who absolutely loves the Cotton series on Saturn, this is extra disappointing to hear.

Why wouldn’t these ports give us the OPTION to play with:

OG Arcade lag
Saturn lag

Or

bright new modern shiny LOW LAG ?

Very frustrating to hear about newer ports of older games which get it so wrong. I come from the FGC, where ANY additional lag from the OG arcade is a huge non starter for any modern port. The best Shmups thrive in the same conditions, when fast responsive input is present.
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Jeneki
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jeneki »

Guardian Force deserves better. The Saturn version still rules.

Looks like my copy already shipped. I'm not getting my hopes up for a lag reduction patch due to the Unity badge of shame.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by trap15 »

Sumez wrote:Why do the Saturn versions have less latency than STV? And is this true for other STV games as well?
Because the way they did the ST-V port adds input lag because of buffering order mistakes.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by EmperorIng »

out of curiosity, is this a case with other STV shooters like Shienryu or Radiant Silvergun?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

trap15 wrote:Because the way they did the ST-V port adds input lag because of buffering order mistakes.
That's very vague. I'm wondering what they changed, and why they had to change in between two very similar systems in the first place?
From the way you said it, seems like it's kind of a bug though, so I'm assuming it's unique to Guardian Force, and not other STV games?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Kino »

Sumez wrote: That's very vague. I'm wondering what they changed, and why they had to change in between two very similar systems in the first place?
I literally linked to it like 5 posts ago, scroll up.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

I somehow missed that. Thanks!
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

I think they spread themselves too thinly with this collection, but I'm probably in the minority in wanting native, accurate and improved ports of each individual game being sold for full price individually. Three games for a budget price sounds good on paper but they resorted to emulation to make it cost- and time-effective, and wrapped it in Unity to target as many platforms as possible, which has produced sub-par results.

At the price they are asking ($20 per game instead of $40 or $50) are they really going to sell two-three times many copies to the average player who probably won't show any interest to begin with in the games?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

What would have been a better alternative to their emulation approach? Creating the entire game engine for each game from scratch? Sounds to me like that would probably have been a lot more inaccurate...
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by BIL »

AyeYoYoYO wrote:As someone who absolutely loves the Cotton series on Saturn, this is extra disappointing to hear.

Why wouldn’t these ports give us the OPTION to play with:

OG Arcade lag
Saturn lag

Or

bright new modern shiny LOW LAG ?

Very frustrating to hear about newer ports of older games which get it so wrong. I come from the FGC, where ANY additional lag from the OG arcade is a huge non starter for any modern port. The best Shmups thrive in the same conditions, when fast responsive input is present.
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Hard gaming is felt as much as seen. It's an innately tactile process. Sharp audiovisuals matter, of course - but the response is AT MINIMUM equally vital.

Whether devs understand this (M2, Hamster, Gotch) or don't (...a lot of others) is the distinguishing factor that brings my wallet (and my boner!) to the fore!
harborline765 wrote:I think they spread themselves too thinly with this collection, but I'm probably in the minority in wanting native, accurate and improved ports of each individual game being sold for full price individually. Three games for a budget price sounds good on paper but they resorted to emulation to make it cost- and time-effective, and wrapped it in Unity to target as many platforms as possible, which has produced sub-par results.
I certainly prefer quality over quantity. Give me a handful of airtight ShotTriggers/ACAs (that I'll put dozens if not hundreds of hours on chasing 1CCs/1LCs/scores) over laggy, buggy, never-to-be-patched Super Value Fun Tyme packs like SNK40th, any day.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

Maybe the bad feedbacks about the input-lag will prompt western publishers like SLG and ININ to pressure City Connection to release a patch that will be included in the western releases ?... Because now they have announced that they will release this compilation for the western market, as these products are mainly aimed at connoisseurs and hardcore gamers, if everyone complains on the discussion forums about this issue, it could torpedo their pre-orders ! :shock:
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Strider77 »

I should be slapped for buying this, hasn't even arrived yet. I even bought the collector box.... and have Guardian Force/Boomerang on Saturn already.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jonpachi »

To add a little more insult to the barrage of injuries, I got the Switch version of the Saturn Tribute today... and it boots to 1.0.0 with no updates available. All three titles are contained within a collection, unlike some other games like the Ninja Gaiden collection that just put three separate games onto the Switch's nav bar. So, it looks like whatever patches have been applied to the individual releases are not yet available to us suckers that bought the collection, and we'll have to wait for separate updates.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

Strider77 wrote:I should be slapped for buying this, hasn't even arrived yet. I even bought the collector box.... and have Guardian Force/Boomerang on Saturn already.
It's not your fault for buying what looked like a cool collection. It's City Connection's fault for shipping a broken product and not telling anyone.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by MachineAres 1CC »

Sonic R wrote:Does anyone know if there is less input lag if playing on PlayStation 5?
I wish to acquire these games, but not sure if I wanted Switch or PlayStation version - then to hear of input lag issue I think to consider PS4 version

It would be good to know if it might help playing on PS5
I took some slo-mo videos as a test comparing Boomerang running on the PS5 versus running on Saturn.

PS5 (wired Saturn style controller, <1ms response rate monitor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThaHsfflEkU

Saturn (sorry for the flickering, CRT will do that): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B26ELFaHGGQ

PS5 is definitely a fair bit laggier, though there's still a little bit in the Saturn version, but I haven't broken down frames to measure the actual difference. Someone else can do that if they want.

Hopefully the devs will patch this sooner than later, but we'll see.
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