Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/21

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Ms. Tea
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

harborline765 wrote:I think they spread themselves too thinly with this collection, but I'm probably in the minority in wanting native, accurate and improved ports of each individual game being sold for full price individually. Three games for a budget price sounds good on paper but they resorted to emulation to make it cost- and time-effective, and wrapped it in Unity to target as many platforms as possible, which has produced sub-par results.
Yeah, people complained about Cotton Reboot being content-light, but it plays 100% solid. I'd take that over something that gets stretched thin.
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BrianC
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by BrianC »

Ms. Tea wrote:
harborline765 wrote:I think they spread themselves too thinly with this collection, but I'm probably in the minority in wanting native, accurate and improved ports of each individual game being sold for full price individually. Three games for a budget price sounds good on paper but they resorted to emulation to make it cost- and time-effective, and wrapped it in Unity to target as many platforms as possible, which has produced sub-par results.
Yeah, people complained about Cotton Reboot being content-light, but it plays 100% solid. I'd take that over something that gets stretched thin.
I agree. I didn't find it to be content-light at all. Plenty of options for both the remake and the X68000 port. Not to mention the X68000 version being a full blown port.
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lovecraft
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

They put a lot of effort and passion in making the Cotton Reboot, even the X68000 version has been completely reprogrammed instead of using an emulator, this is all the difference with the botched work from City Connection.. And I hope they're not destroying Deathsmiles with their poor emulation skills (the forced 4:3 aspect ratio like they did with the Cotton compilation is not a good sign )
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Yoshinoya
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Yoshinoya »

They are looking into input lag ! ( ^ o ^ )/

https://city-connection.co.jp/cotton/en ... /#20211005
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Sumez
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

Would be cool to do such things before you release the games, but hopefully they'll think about it in the future
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

They collect tons of money on these games from places like Playasia, digital storefronts and Limited producers and only think to improve unplayable performance when enough customers complain /cancel orders. It's better than doing nothing (assuming they actually release a patch to bring the lag down to Saturn levels), but it's still not very good. They had to have known what the input lag was before the games launched. There's no way they didn't know. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where an arcade game or shmup goes through the porting process and absolutely nobody thinks to set up some kind of lag testing prior to the release.

But the way they wrote that statement heavily implies they didn't know. Or that they'd like me to believe they didn't know. How could they not know? It's their product. They're the ones putting the port together and using their fancy new "zebra engine" or whatever. Testing the input lag represents a fraction of the amount of effort that they would have already spent porting the game. Is there literally nobody doing QA work at City Connection? How could they not have tested the lag after the pushback they already got when the Psikyo collections released? And that lag was way more reasonable than this.

I'm also skeptical of how they could fix the lag without remaking the entire game. If the zebra engine or unity or whatever is causing the lag, they can't just remove it, can they? That seems like it would be a disaster.
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Yoshinoya
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Yoshinoya »

I think its good that they respond and are willing to fix it.
There can be various reasons why this couldn't be fixed before release during gamedev.
Or wasnt given enough prio to fix over other things.

But its a good sign that they do listen and hopefully going forward this is a point that gets enough attention.
I dont like to be negative now when they respond so fast and show willingness .

I bought the game too so I was a little disappointed but Im happy they are listening ヾ(○・ω・)ノ☆
Lets see!
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lovecraft
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

A good reason to re-publish the physical version with the patch applied and make you buying it a second time :evil:
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Bear78
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Bear78 »

lovecraft wrote:A good reason to re-publish the physical version with the patch applied and make you buying it a second time :evil:
Strictly Limited is going to be publishing a "western" version of this that they advertised will have all the latest patches on cart/disc. They announced this a few weeks ago and I canceled my Play-Asia pre-order to wait for SLGs. I was unsure at the time but figured I could wait a bit more. Looks like it was the right call.
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lovecraft
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

Bear78 wrote:
lovecraft wrote:A good reason to re-publish the physical version with the patch applied and make you buying it a second time :evil:
Strictly Limited is going to be publishing a "western" version of this that they advertised will have all the latest patches on cart/disc. They announced this a few weeks ago and I canceled my Play-Asia pre-order to wait for SLGs. I was unsure at the time but figured I could wait a bit more. Looks like it was the right call.
The main problem with Strictly Limited is that between the time you order from them, and the day you receive your order, you have time to plant a seed and watch it grow into a tree to bear fruit.
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EmperorIng
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by EmperorIng »

A big step to fixing a problem is being aware of/admitting there is a problem. So it's better than nothing I'd say.
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Ms. Tea
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

Yeah, I'm happy to see it acknowledged. Hopefully they really do patch something.

Trap's hacked Guardian Force before to cut out frames of lag; seems there's room to get the input lag down in all the original games. Even if they can't fix the emulator side of things, there should be room to get lag down by a few frames.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Astro City II »

That's quite refreshing to see them make a post about it. Makes me a bit more hopeful for the Xbox and Steam versions now.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jonpachi »

I'm... still having fun. I'm treating this as a sort of movie trailer experience rather than going hard and trying to get 1CCs. I've always been curious about Guardian Force, so it's still nice to have it on a portable to mess around with. Same with Boomerang. I had 2 back in the day but ended up selling it off, and have always been curious about the remixed sequel.
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MOSQUITO FIGHTER
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by MOSQUITO FIGHTER »

I just got Guardian Force today and to me the port is passable. The lag isn’t so bad that I can’t adjust but it is noticeable. Plus I haven’t felt like mucking around with setting up any emulators. I’d rather just fork over the $17 to play the game. I remember Saturn emulation not being all that great before but I guess it’s probably much improved these days.
harborline765
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

One thing which is interesting, the Switch build of the Zebra Engine emulator that runs these games has been altered to inject other Saturn games in and the results are interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZO4p2CTI1M

Wonder how much latency is in many of these games - the video creator here only claims Daytona USA has noticeably lag.
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Sumez
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

Wow!

Somehow I'd gotten the impression that the Zebra Engine was something designed specifically around high level emulation of these particular games (which made the input lag even more baffling).
But apparently it seems to be an incredibly competent Saturn emulator in general? Really makes you wish they find a fix for that lag. :O
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Ms. Tea
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

harborline765 wrote:Wonder how much latency is in many of these games - the video creator here only claims Daytona USA has noticeably lag.
Keep in mind these three games have way more lag than average on the Saturn - even with the emulator adding lag, most other games are going to feel a lot more responsive than they do. Most games aren't as demanding on input as a shmup either.

I got my copy in the mail yesterday, and like Jonpachi said, I'm having casual fun even if there's no way you could play them seriously like this. I'd never played Guardian Force before, and it's pretty interesting? Really going to have to play more. Cotton 2 and Boomerang are old favourites but I haven't played in years, so it's nice to get some more time in them - especially since my upscaler can't handle Boomerang's resolution switching. Still... I really hope they get this lag under control.
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lovecraft
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

Ms. Tea wrote:my upscaler can't handle Boomerang's resolution switching. Still... I really hope they get this lag under control.

Just curious, what upscaler are you using ?
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Ms. Tea
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

lovecraft wrote:
Ms. Tea wrote:my upscaler can't handle Boomerang's resolution switching. Still... I really hope they get this lag under control.

Just curious, what upscaler are you using ?
Framemeister. Drops out briefly every time it switches between 240p and 480i.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jeneki »

Got my disc, surprisingly fast delivery all things considered. Gave it a try, and yeah I'm done with this. Even the (in-game) menus feel bad.

Ah well my Saturn is currently hooked up anyway. Not sure why I bought this, I'm such a sucker for this genre lol.
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PixelPhoenix
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by PixelPhoenix »

Toward the beginning of 2021 I immediately became interested in a Cotton 2/Boomerang release for the Switch. I found out about the input delay when the news hit. Needless to say, I was crushed. I'm jut now reading this thread to catch up, and I'm just as disappointed to see so many people let down. I'm hoping this is addressed in a meaningful manner (a drastic improvement would be great, some improvement would be good, too). I do have the Saturn releases if I ever feel the need to tap into those, but I kind of wish they looked at this a bit more closely before releasing it to the public.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by bigbadboaz »

Does City Connection have any track record of patching issues in its releases?
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

They patched the pc versions of the psikyo games, or so I've heard, but never fixed the lag in the switch ports.

I hear game tengoku was fine overall. I might buy that one eventually.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Creamy Goodness »

Got my copy last night and played it for a bit. The lag is relatively noticable, but between it being Saturn emulation of a game that originally was a bit laggy on a console that has been known to have lag issues, I hope they can improve it, but I am not seeing it as a deal breaker. The Cotton games seem like such memorizers that you can work around the lag. At least for a mediocre player like me who just strives for 1cc's at most.

And man they made Silk super stacked in these games.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by neontropics »

I got the Special Edition for PS4 but haven't tested it yet - partly due to the lag and partly due to just lack of time. This issue did prompt me to finally order the Satiator for the Saturn though, so now I'm more excited about just trying that for Boomerang. I do really hope they fix the lag but will likely be fine playing mainly on Saturn until then. I have and really like Cotton 2 already so it's gonna be fun to dive into Cotton Boomerang now in time for Halloween.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

https://twitter.com/SaturnMemories/stat ... 07680?s=20

Someone who knows more about lag and emulators can tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the lag is a product of the emulation used. Which I assume (and I might be wrong about this) means it's going to be very, very difficult for City Connection to fix. Cue sad trombone sound. I think we'll be lucky if even one of the versions gets patched. Switch version is probably fubar.
SSF is a pretty good emulator, but one of its most glaring flaws is excessive input lag. City Connection has said they'll try to address this issue, but don't hold your breath. SSF has been in development since the early 2000s, so I don't see a miracle solution on the horizon.
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Sumez
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

I'd be surprised if the Unity layer added on top of everything doesn't add a frame or two as well.
Hopefully both ends can get fixed for a better overall solution.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by tomwhite2004 »

Sumez wrote:I'd be surprised if the Unity layer added on top of everything doesn't add a frame or two as well.
That doesn't seem to be the case.

https://twitter.com/kawauso_kami/status ... 9223580679
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Sumez
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

Hm, I'd heard claims of the opposite, but to be honest I have no idea what people are basing that idea on.
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