Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/21

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trap15
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by trap15 »

"Multiplatform side" can only mean the actual glue between the game and the system is in Unity; that is, it could be responsible for some of the latency for sure.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by To Far Away Times »

trap15 wrote:"Multiplatform side" can only mean the actual glue between the game and the system is in Unity; that is, it could be responsible for some of the latency for sure.
That's what I was thinking.

Unity handles all the "translation". Take a borderline acceptable laggy game and add communicating the controls from the emulator to the console and that would surely have to add an extra frame or two? Might just push it over the edge of acceptability.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

...plus current tv's technology doesn't help
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by trap15 »

We're long past the era of laggy LCDs man, it's cheap and easy to find sub-8ms (from top-left) TVs even these days.
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lovecraft
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

trap15 wrote:We're long past the era of laggy LCDs man, it's cheap and easy to find sub-8ms (from top-left) TVs even these days.
I know dude, I know they have drastically improved this kind of problem on the new flat screens. However, technical experts continue to admit they still don't have a reactivity perfectly comparable with the old CRT screens, mostly with old consoles or old emulated games as obviously they were not developed at a time when this type of flat screen technology existed. This slight problem has often been mentioned everywhere with all "Mini" consoles (SNES Mini, NEC PCE Mini ...). Not a big deal however, but let's be completely objective.

ps: Also I had read here and there the HDMI connection is a little bit more laggy than the old Scart, Component, VGA connections used with old consoles.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sumez »

CRTs have no inherent lag as such. Due to the mechanics that draw the screen one line at a time over a period of nearly 16.7ms (1000/60, includes vertical blank), they will still measure a "lag" of ~8.3ms to a reaction on the middle of the screen.

So basically any LCD/HDMI TV that measures around 8-16ms of lag on a 60hz source are close enough to CRTs that it shouldn't realistically be an issue. But of course anything that outputs a HDMI signal can potentially add lag on its own, just like every other link in the chain from button press until visible pixel.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by MrJBRPG »

Yes, it seems the emulator of choice is the main culprit of huge input lag:
https://twitter.com/saturnmemories/stat ... 07680?s=21

Unless something can be done to switch to better emulation or recompiling code to run better, there aren’t other options besides the original cartridges.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Buffi »

MrJBRPG wrote:Yes, it seems the emulator of choice is the main culprit of huge input lag:
https://twitter.com/saturnmemories/stat ... 07680?s=21

Unless something can be done to switch to better emulation or recompiling code to run better, there aren’t other options besides the original cartridges.
Well, CDs, not cartridges in this case

Edit: Well, unless you mean the STV versions I guess, but this is a Saturn tribute :p
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lovecraft
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by lovecraft »

Sumez wrote:CRTs have no inherent lag as such. Due to the mechanics that draw the screen one line at a time over a period of nearly 16.7ms (1000/60, includes vertical blank), they will still measure a "lag" of ~8.3ms to a reaction on the middle of the screen.

So basically any LCD/HDMI TV that measures around 8-16ms of lag on a 60hz source are close enough to CRTs that it shouldn't realistically be an issue. But of course anything that outputs a HDMI signal can potentially add lag on its own, just like every other link in the chain from button press until visible pixel.
Interesting, thanks.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by BulletMagnet »

SLG has "coming soon" pages up for its physical runs if anyone wants to take a chance on those; the email they sent out notes in bold type that "the latest patches will be included on the disc" so apparently they've gotten wind of certain complaints, heh.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Creamy Goodness »

This is pretty funny. Someone figured out how to use this game to emulate other Saturn games on the Switch.

https://youtu.be/YiKBw2RGcow
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

City Connection are working on the patch for input lag and are having an in-person playtesting session for interested people: https://city-connection.co.jp/cotton/topics/ Looks like they're inviting people to test all four versions, including the unreleased PC and Xbox One versions. Really hope they've actually managed to fix this.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Ms. Tea wrote:City Connection are working on the patch for input lag and are having an in-person playtesting session for interested people: https://city-connection.co.jp/cotton/topics/ Looks like they're inviting people to test all four versions, including the unreleased PC and Xbox One versions. Really hope they've actually managed to fix this.
That's great news, godspeed to them. Did they ever do this for the Psikyo Collection?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Darkseed_5150 »

Ms. Tea wrote:City Connection are working on the patch for input lag and are having an in-person playtesting session for interested people: https://city-connection.co.jp/cotton/topics/ Looks like they're inviting people to test all four versions, including the unreleased PC and Xbox One versions. Really hope they've actually managed to fix this.
Thats great to hear as really enjoy their releases and would like to continue purchasing their stuff in the future without fear. If they could patch the Psykio games to retain rotation without menu diving and maybe add save sates that would really solidify their pedigree with me.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

Sengoku Strider wrote:That's great news, godspeed to them. Did they ever do this for the Psikyo Collection?
Nope, pretty sure this is a first. I'm glad they seem to be taking it seriously.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Ms. Tea wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:That's great news, godspeed to them. Did they ever do this for the Psikyo Collection?
Nope, pretty sure this is a first. I'm glad they seem to be taking it seriously.
I'd kinda rather they take the two big boxes of the Psikyo collection seriously...>_>
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Astro City II »

Somewhat impressed they've announced anything.

I had a feeling they'd go radio silent and sweep these under the mat with the PC and Xbox versions never to be released.

Let's hope they've made decent improvements.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

According to people who attended the test, it's apparently a significant improvement. One tester reported that it felt closer to the original Saturn versions.

https://twitter.com/jk_tokiwa/status/14 ... 2140666881
https://twitter.com/hokeihello/status/1 ... 7436538882
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

Thanks for sharing, really encouraging news.

I wonder when the patch will go live. Strictly Limited, who are publishing the boxed versions, normally pledge to ship physical copies with the latest patches on card/disc, and they are aiming for January/February for Saturn Tribute. I can see those versions being delayed unless the patches are ready to go now. Would be nice to see something out before the end of the yar.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jonpachi »

I call bullshit. No way are they magically gonna patch this down to anywhere near acceptable. We might land at sub-10 (7 or 8 maybe) but that's about it.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

Even if they got rid of all the additional lag (which is probably impossible, given the way they emulated it,) that would only bring it down to 7 or so frames, wouldn't it? Because you have the saturn lag + a frame of switch lag. So it would be psikyo collection switch tier lag.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by jehu »

City Connection released an update about the lag situation. Glad they're on it, though my expectations are severely tempered. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd be surprised - impressed, even - if they could get the lag down to Psikyo Collection levels.

https://city-connection.co.jp/cotton/en ... /#20211229
December 29, 2021 - Announcement about the future update to improve input delay for“Cotton Guardian Force Saturn Tribute”

We are pleased to announce that the update to improve the input delay for “Cotton Guardian Force Saturn Tribute” for Nintendo Switch and PlayStation 4 (including the downloadable versions) will be released in late January or early February 2022.
The Steam version will be released at the same time. The Xbox One version is scheduled for release in early 2022.

【Course of events】

There have been cases where input delays have occurred in this game due to the following reasons.
(1) Delays due to hardware and engine performance
(2) Delays caused by input devices or monitors
As a result of our verification and response, we have been able to make technical improvements in the area related to the above factor (1).
We also prepared an environment where you can compare the improved version with the old version at the recent trial event. And we were able to let the users experience the improvements. We would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who came to the trial session. We appreciate it greatly.
We are now preparing for the update, based on the feedback from the trial.
Thank you for your patience.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by EmperorIng »

The leadup and multiple announcements about it have been pretty amusing... Like... building hype over what should be an essential patch. Release date for the "make this more playable" update!

At the very least I'll wait for the steam release, which will probably be the most optimal in terms of responsiveness.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Sima Tuna »

Sounds like they're setting people up for disappointment. Spouting bullshit about monitors causing lag.
There have been cases where input delays have occurred in this game due to the following reasons.
(1) Delays due to hardware and engine performance
(2) Delays caused by input devices or monitors
No fuckers, the 11 frames is from your game.

What did the Psikyo collections on PC end up with, anyway? 5 frames? I know they're unchanged on switch. Still 7-8 or whatever.

I'd be frankly amazed if the cotton guardian force saturn collection can get down to 8 frames of lag from where it is now. Which is still unacceptable in a shmup. My guess for why the Deathsmiles port turned out better is a) more money thrown at the project initially, resulting in a better porting job and b) having the existing xbox 360 port job to basically copy over wholesale with few changes.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jonpachi »

^ It's not money or a 360 copy/paste job. It was having the original source code to work with, and doing a proper port. The Saturn Tribute set is trying to emulate Sega Saturn versions of games that were already fairly laggy on that console. It never had a chance really, while Deathsmiles had the benefit of being a full port instead of an emulated mess.

That said, I absolutely agree there's no way the patch is gonna fix it up to anywhere near playable.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

Will be fascinating to see what they've managed to achieve with this after a few more months of development.

I've kept my game card copy of the collection around since that's now an archive of the disastrous lag present in version 1.0.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Ms. Tea »

harborline765 wrote:I've kept my game card copy of the collection around since that's now an archive of the disastrous lag present in version 1.0.
They've included an option so you can switch back and forth between the two kinds of lag to do a direct comparison. They originally did that for the playtest earlier this month but I guess they decided to keep it. Guess they must be confident if they're making it easy to compare, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by Jonpachi »

Ms. Tea wrote:They've included an option so you can switch back and forth between the two kinds of lag to do a direct comparison. They originally did that for the playtest earlier this month but I guess they decided to keep it. Guess they must be confident if they're making it easy to compare, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.
*SPIT TAKE*

What? WHY!?

:lol:

They wanted a lasting record of their terrible work?
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by BrianC »

Sima Tuna wrote: What did the Psikyo collections on PC end up with, anyway? 5 frames?
4-5 frames without V-Sync, I'm guessing that it's probably the same as Switch with V-Sync on.
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Re: Saturn Tribute: Cotton 2 + Boomerang, Guardian Force, 9/

Post by harborline765 »

Psyvariar was on Unity, so ~5 frames is probably the best you can expect unless they forked the engine or something.

Could be worse of course...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQexs4X_-f0
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