Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

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MrOldSchoolCool
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Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by MrOldSchoolCool »

I've noticed that the original Dodonpachi and Daioujou seem to always rank much higher (in the top 25 shmups poll and otherwise). So, I wanted to ask everybody why that is.
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ATTRACTS
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by ATTRACTS »

Because they are better.

DFK is ok but the visual puke all over the screen and a certain stage with rotating turrets kills my joy for it.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by To Far Away Times »

Accurate.

DDP is a landmark game. DOJ takes DDP and polishes it up and makes it even better.

DFK is not better. Too much loli stuff, and the game is designed around you having an auto bomb. The lazer wheels are stupid; CAVE has made some great final levels, this is not one of them.

The original DonPachi is a pretty decent game, though it's unfortunately sandwiched in between Batsugun and DoDonPachi so it's a bit overshadowed.
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by el_rika »

A few reasons.


When it was released, people expected more of the same, but got something different, and "different" is scary (this is true for most relationships between hardcore fans/sequels that do things diffrrently)
.
The initial 1.0 version had issues.
.
The emulation at the time was very demanding.
.
Some are more masculine, and the moment a ship turns into a robot cutie it's where they draw the line.
.
I'm guessing we are talking here exclusively about 1.0/1.5, because BL is top 5 (Cave) shmups ever made, easily.
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Sumez
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Sumez »

DFK feels like such a completely different kind of game, coming from both DDP and DOJ. I can understand it won't necessarily appeal to the same people.
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davyK
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by davyK »

DFK is bonkers. It's kind of a joke - like an exercise is seeing just how far you can push the modern ideas like hypers and cancelling bullets etc. I didn't like it at first but I quite like it now.

You can't say the console and Steam ports don't offer value for money either. So many modes and options. :)
Last edited by davyK on Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Part of the hatred is the more overt loli aspect. DOJ got away with it by having the element dolls be largely forgettable ingame, showing up only in the selection screens, the end of stage screens, and the ending. DFK had robot loli girls as every major boss except the TLB, and the midbosses have red ribbon designs on some of them.

There's also the perception that it has way too much bullet cancelling. Originally the game had no autobomb, and while it is possible to cancel a lot of bullets, it's actually closer to DDP than DOJ in terms of scoring. Optimal scoring involves using Hyper once early on, then full chaining without ever touching Hyper when possible as you get a massive score multiplier based on current hit chain when your Hyper is maxed and NOT active. DOJ has less cancelling but more active and precise Hyper use to score as far as I'm aware.

Laser wheels are very polarizing too. It's hard to see exactly where they are when your laser aura is hitting them, so it's tricky to learn to move through them, not to mention having to memorize where the next wheel's coming from, etc.

SDOJ would be more popular if it had a PC release I suspect. The XB360 port was seen as suffering input lag which, combined with a larger hitbox, made it feel a lot tougher to folks. Fun game though. The forced loli aspects are still in effect though.
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davyK
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by davyK »

Aye. That loli / young girl thing is a bit off. Esp. on some of the wallpapers/border art when playing on a big screen. Deathsmiles and Caladrius feel a bit that way too.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

The funny thing I've talked to people getting into shmups who genuinely don't understand the appeal of games like Raiden, Crimzon Clover where there's no "characters", just the ship designs. There is apparently loli appeal.
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Jeneki
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Jeneki »

Long periods of just sitting around absorbing bullets is a turn-off. I'm ok with bullet cancelling, in fact many of my favorites have some, but DFK just takes it too far and isn't fun to me.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

It's really only an issue in Black Label where it's actively encouraged as the primary scoring mechanic (and why I'm not terrible fond of Black Label). In normal DFK, using hypers like crazy is bad for score, and by using hypers constantly you eventually max out hyper rank where you won't be able to cancel bullets properly anyways. This goes especially true in the second loop where hyper rank drops much slower between stages.
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Jeneki
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Jeneki »

I agree but that doesn't change the fact they last way too long, which is why I don't enjoy it. Give me Takumi style bullet cancels over this any day.
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Sengoku Strider »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:The funny thing I've talked to people getting into shmups who genuinely don't understand the appeal of games like Raiden, Crimzon Clover where there's no "characters", just the ship designs. There is apparently loli appeal.
If anything, that might be the norm. Touhou seems to be the entry point for a lot of new players.
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Mrhide »

...but that BL soundtrack though! damn!! :P
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Yeah, fortunately the ports of DFK let you change the soundtrack in the options, so you can play vanilla DFK with BL music if you want.
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by trap15 »

Is this the new Daifukkatsu Meh thread
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by EmperorIng »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:The funny thing I've talked to people getting into shmups who genuinely don't understand the appeal of games like Raiden, Crimzon Clover where there's no "characters", just the ship designs. There is apparently loli appeal.
Psikyo already figured out that characters sell more than ships back in the early 90s and tuned their games accordingly (excepting Strikers 2 and 3).
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Meriscan
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Meriscan »

By popular, do you mean as in highly rated? From what I see on Twitch and Discord servers, DFK is by far the most played DDP game.

The game has obvious reasons as to why this is the case:
- It panders hard to anime fans.
- The game is piss-easy for survival (99% of players).
- Flashy visuals, makes it look more exciting.

It's also available on Steam and last-gen consoles. If SDOJ were available on PC, I predict it'd be the most played one. And while I dislike the game, it's popularity doesn't matter. It's not like the games popularity is overshadowing other games. If DFK weren't available, I don't think these people would have tried a different shmup.
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Rastan78
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Rastan78 »

I like character based shmups, but I'm kinda glad the whole 90s obsession with animal mascots was limited more to platformers. So we didn't end up with Spunky the Radical Skateboarding Skunk shmups or some crap like that. There were some pretty desperate attempts to follow in the footsteps of Sonic, Ninja Turtles etc.

That being said a shmup based on Rocket Knight could've been awesome.
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geremy
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by geremy »

DFK smartphone was my entry point to this forum. It's still in my top 5, though I don't play it as much anymore ( Crimzon Clover is my #1, so it isn't about the Loli appeal). I actually like DOJ a bit more, but it is harder to access to play.
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Sengoku Strider »

EmperorIng wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:The funny thing I've talked to people getting into shmups who genuinely don't understand the appeal of games like Raiden, Crimzon Clover where there's no "characters", just the ship designs. There is apparently loli appeal.
Psikyo already figured out that characters sell more than ships back in the early 90s and tuned their games accordingly (excepting Strikers 2 and 3).
Funnily enough, I believe Strikers II was their most successful game. But you can chalk that up to the real-world appeal of the WW II fighters. I bet there are a lot of people who gave that title a shot who wouldn't otherwise mess with the genre.
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Rastan78
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Rastan78 »

I bet there are a lot of people who gave that title a shot who wouldn't otherwise mess with the genre.
I used to see Strikers cabs all over as well as Raiden Fighters up into the mid 2000s. Bars, pool halls, bowling alleys. Pretty much anywhere that you might also see a Golden Tee or a Buck Hunter. They had a surprising crossover appeal at a time when shmups were already very niche. Probably the neutral military aesthetic helped with that. Not too many people who didn't usually play games were gonna be like, "hold my beer. I'm gonna go try that game with the cute teenage witch that shoots candy corns."
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Ms. Tea
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Ms. Tea »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:The funny thing I've talked to people getting into shmups who genuinely don't understand the appeal of games like Raiden, Crimzon Clover where there's no "characters", just the ship designs. There is apparently loli appeal.
Not sure why that's a big surprise, tbh. If someone's new to shmups, they're going to be hitting a gameplay wall really quick. Characters and story give them a hook to keep them coming back while they build their skills and get better at the game. More experienced players are going to be able to get more out of intricacies in the gameplay right away, but less experienced players need sometning else to hold on to while they're learning.
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Sengoku Strider
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Rastan78 wrote:
I bet there are a lot of people who gave that title a shot who wouldn't otherwise mess with the genre.
I used to see Strikers cabs all over as well as Raiden Fighters up into the mid 2000s. Bars, pool halls, bowling alleys. Pretty much anywhere that you might also see a Golden Tee or a Buck Hunter. They had a surprising crossover appeal at a time when shmups were already very niche. Probably the neutral military aesthetic helped with that. Not too many people who didn't usually play games were gonna be like, "hold my beer. I'm gonna go try that game with the cute teenage witch that shoots candy corns."
Yeah, I think it's telling that Strikers is the first franchise they're returning to now that they're going back to the Psikyo well. Not sure if the modern fighters will have as broad appeal as the WW II stuff, but at the same time I'm kind of shocked the first two games have made it this long without any controversy over the Nazi & Imperial Japanese fighters.
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Matsunaga
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Matsunaga »

Personally, I like DFK way better than SDOJ. However, DDP and DOJ are much better. I’m not mad at it though, it’s a fun game.
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Lethe
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Lethe »

Something I've never understood about DFK is what the point of the laser blocking is. It seems like a very puerile half-formed gimmick with few gameplay implications beyond forcing the player to laser because ??? and the game has this weird obsession with returning to it again and again. I absolutely could be wrong about my assessment of it though, since I don't like the game enough anyway to bother investigating it.
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by el_rika »

Lethe wrote:Something I've never understood about DFK is what the point of the laser blocking is. It seems like a very puerile half-formed gimmick with few gameplay implications beyond forcing the player to laser because ??? and the game has this weird obsession with returning to it again and again. I absolutely could be wrong about my assessment of it though, since I don't like the game enough anyway to bother investigating it.
What do you mean? :?:

It's part of the challenge. It's designed to presssure you, both inside and outside the hyper, and it does exactly that.
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Lethe
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Lethe »

How does it pressure me? Forces me to use laser speed instead of whatever speed I want? AFAIK the lasers aren't going to hit you no matter which angle they're coming from as long as you're also lasering, so calling it blocking is really an overstatement; it's more like forced slow movement. It just seems like a totally meaningless and redundant part of the design, which is a rare thing to see in Cave games. No other game they've made needs something like this. Normally the pattern design and chaining does the work by itself.
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by trap15 »

You can't counter lasers and hyper counter bullets at the same time, so it's got that at least. You can't dodge bullets as effectively while lasering either; it's a way of increasing the amount of thought players need to put into how they're attacking.
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Re: Daifukkatsu not as popular as other Dodonpachi games?

Post by Special World »

DFK vanilla is maybe my least favorite Cave game, but DFK Black Label is amongst the best, second (probably) only to Futari. It’s a hell of a thing.
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