Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

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Eyvah_Ehyeh
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Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Times, and tastes, change, and so does the way we play games. That's definitely the case with how I play games, and shmups in particular, seeing as how I kinda don't, opting instead for roguelikes from turn-based stuff like Slay The Spire and Into The Breach, to action-heavy stuff such as Hades and Dead Cells. But what about shmupsy type of roguelike games? My favorite type of shmups had randomally generated stuff, like Kenta Chos Parsec47, rRootage, and Noiz2sa, and choice of weapons and subweapons, like in Garden Of Colored Lights, but what about taking it one step further, with upgrades, or special missions with special weapons and conditions? Imagine for example a Un Squadron/Area 88 with different types of stages and challenges, randomized within itself, giving you a choice before each mission to choose ship, buy weapons, etc, maybe showing you beforehand what boss is on that stage, or perhaps whether you can expect more heavy ground troops, or fighters in the air. Repeating the same five stages of a dodonpachi, trying to make "the perfect run", isn't as fun as it used to be, and so mixing it up would be cool. Do you have some recommendations for me?
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Rastan78
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Rastan78 »

While it's a run n gun, not a shmup, I had a lot of fun with Nuclear Throne. Stuck with it long enough to get a few clears. Enter the Gungeon, I disliked pretty much everything about. It was in the Sine Mora play for a bit and delete category. The beginning of every run is total dead air.

With you all the way on Into the Breach. What a well designed game. I'm surprised how I just keep coming back to it from time to time.

Personally, I do still prefer the classic shmup formula as it's more about about formulating a strategy and perfecting it vs playing on the fly and adapting to random conditions.
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subcons
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by subcons »

Check out Project Starship X. Haven’t played it myself as I’m not a fan of rogue-lite shooters, but it’s gotten high marks from a lot of reviewers.

Edit: And also check out Steredenn as well. It’s on every platform, even phones.
Last edited by subcons on Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Rastan78 wrote:With you all the way on Into the Breach. What a well designed game. I'm surprised how I just keep coming back to it from time to time.
Having played both Banner Saga and Gods of Ash: Redemption back to back, I do come back to Into The Breach and realize just how much of a joy it is to play, as opposed to the two aforementioned games which although interesting for a while, devolve into repetition and what feels like either bruteforcing, or luck. Having that said, I would enjoy Into The Breach EVEN MORE if it had more of the roguelike elements, with more upgrades, "secret" worlds and pilots and missions, where your progress is saved across games. Then again maybe the gameplay is so tight precisely because we have so little control over upgrades and doing a bunch of crazy stuff like in say slay the spire. I guess Supergiants games, such as Hades and Transistor, are genius designs in that they can combine both tons of crazy synergies and what feels like overpowered stuff, but also further challenges and difficulty levels. Both Banner Saga and GoAR were very boring in that aspect, I mean it's quite telling that the skills you unlock when at high levels are the worst - simply plus health, and plus energy - and in general the synergies were very unsatisfactory compared to the hell yeah moments of Into The Breach - even if they basically don't "go anywhere" bur rather are clean and fun already from the get-go.
Last edited by Eyvah_Ehyeh on Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

subcons wrote:Check out Project Starship X. Haven’t played it myself as I’m not a fan of rogue-lite shooters myself, but it’s gotten high marks from a lot of reviewers.

Edit: And also check out Steredenn as well. It’s on every platform, even phones.
Thanks, will check out. :)
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Jonpachi »

Project Starship X proves exactly why the idea of a rogue-lite shmup is a bad idea. In a genre built on routing and memorization, forcing it into a procedural model just destroys everything good. You end up with random spikes in difficulty, and no sense of progression. To make up for this, the developers just dump a ton of extra health on top of you to paper over the issues. The game is a mess.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

Jonpachi wrote:Project Starship X proves exactly why the idea of a rogue-lite shmup is a bad idea. In a genre built on routing and memorization, forcing it into a procedural model just destroys everything good. You end up with random spikes in difficulty, and no sense of progression. To make up for this, the developers just dump a ton of extra health on top of you to paper over the issues. The game is a mess.
I realize it's super hard to create something like this. Maybe run n guns are easier for this, seeing as how they're just one step away from games such as Binding of Isaac. What do you think of endless modes, like in Kenta Chos shmups? I guess it depends whether one wants that sense of progression, or not. I used to, but then I got more casual and just wanted to have fun (whilst trying my best). In a way, those spikes in difficulty make it so that I feel less pressure, as well.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by kid aphex »

I’ve put over a thousand hours into Nuclear Throne... it’s one of my favorite games ever, so I second its recommendation.

Maybe you should try Neon Abyss... there’s a demo available that’s expansive enough that you’ll get a good taste of the game. I played the demo a lot but haven’t bit on the game yet. It’s a straight up run-and-gun roguelike. Really well-made.

Enter the Gungeon is another great twin-stick roguelike, similar to Nuclear Throne. The gameplay isn’t as ‘twitch’, though, it’s a bit more strategic, despite being a bullet-hell. If the slowish moment-to-moment gameplay doesn’t turn you off completely, there’s a ton of humor and hidden stuff in it to keep you engaged for a while.

Black Future 88 is another great one... killer aesthetic and soundtrack. Run and gun all the way. I’m just getting into it now, seems like it’s got legs.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by XoPachi »

Stunned at no mention of Monolith.

One of the 3 rogue games I can stomach.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by EmperorIng »

For real. People are missing out. I've played a lot of monolith and from what I've seen of Nuclear Throne and Gungeon, those two games WISH they were as well-crafted and tight as Monolith.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Leander »

Yeah, seconding Project Starship X and Monolith for roguelike shmups, they are both a heaps of fun (Monolith is a twin-stick shooter/shmup hybrid though.)
I'm making a roguelike shmup too, got a demo available here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1489 ... ion_STEEL/
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by seattlexc »

kid aphex wrote: Nuclear Throne... it’s one of my favorite games ever
I have roughly 600 hours in Nuclear Throne between PC and the PS4 version. I can see myself playing it for a while longer too, there's a few dozen crowns I need to unlock. Amazing game, highly recommended as well.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by XoPachi »

EmperorIng wrote:For real. People are missing out. I've played a lot of monolith and from what I've seen of Nuclear Throne and Gungeon, those two games WISH they were as well-crafted and tight as Monolith.
I couldn't stand Enter the Gungeon and Nuclear looks like any other similar game to me. Monolith just clicks and doesn't waste as much of my time. Flaws aside with the latest DLC, it's still incredible.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by kid aphex »

EmperorIng wrote:For real. People are missing out. I've played a lot of monolith and from what I've seen of Nuclear Throne and Gungeon, those two games WISH they were as well-crafted and tight as Monolith.
I've played Monolith. It's well made, but for some reason I got bored with it much quicker than Throne. Throne is god-tier. Not sure what it is about it... pure crack in game form. Plays very well, too (unlike gungeon)

Plus, bummer about Monolith is you need a PC and Steam, which some of us don't have (No more PC for me...)
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by kid aphex »

seattlexc wrote:
kid aphex wrote: Nuclear Throne... it’s one of my favorite games ever
I have roughly 600 hours in Nuclear Throne between PC and the PS4 version. I can see myself playing it for a while longer too, there's a few dozen crowns I need to unlock. Amazing game, highly recommended as well.
Hell yes. It's a shame there'll never be a true sequel, as the devs split up last year in October. A true bummer.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Rastan78 »

I think one of the reasons I really liked Nuclear Throne compared to some of the other games of this type, besides the fact that it generally feels great to play, is that it doesn't confine the level layouts to individual rooms. I like the flow of navigating various parts of the level, coming up to narrow chokepoints or wide open areas and clearing them at my own pace. Theres a nice flow when the whole level is one continuous space. For me clearing a room then going through the next via a door and so on just isn't as fun. This type of gameplay made more sense on the NES or GB when hardware limitations were part of the reason for that type of design.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Special World »

More like a 2-D space dogfighter than anything, but Galak-Z was super fun and I can’t believe how few people played it. The control is just magnificent. It’s a little light on roguelike design items to play endlessly, but for the course of its campaign its a blast.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Leander »

I remembered another one which is pretty fun: BroodStar - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1232100/BroodStar/
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Verticen »

subcons wrote:Edit: And also check out Steredenn as well. It’s on every platform, even phones.
I'll second steredenn, it's very competent & worth playing. Its RNG challenge design is generally really soild. Has some euroshump elements in there like recoil on some weapons, but generally it isn't too bad. I recommend using gamepad to play it. GFX and OST are quite good too.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

I like Steredenn, don't love it. The core is pretty much there, so if the same dev, or someone else really worked out the details it could be really really good.

For the 'space dogfighting' genre of shooter (Wing Commander, Colony Wars) I can't recommend Everspace enough. I mean, turning something vast and infinite like space into essentially a dungeon is more than a little perverse. That said, the concept is pulled off without feeling forced, and the game certainly gets it's hooks in. Besides, I played pretty steadily for over a couple years and was still finding new things on the regular.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by SPM »

I'm gonna have to give Nuclear Throne a go by your comments since I love Enter the Gungeon (put around 100h into it). Runs are a bit long and the first floors get easy with time, it's true, but you can always skip them via the secret/unlockable "stage select", and there's also modifiers to spice things up from the very beginning of a run. Nowadays I tend to play a run every now and then with
Spoiler
the Paradox or the Bullet in order to play with "less RNG" (the former lets you choose your items and the latter has the sword)
or go directly into boss rush. I love its humour and visual style as well, to the point I almost bought the physical ammonomicon.

IMO it's an outstanding game, whether you enjoy it or not (that's just personal taste).
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Rastan78 »

I should probably give Gungeon another try at some point. The weak starting peashooter with super long reload time got on my nerves so much tho.

Another aspect i think I prefer in these "rogue lite" style games is less reliance on unlockables and level grinding across your save game. A few unlockable characters and so forth is cool, but I'd rather be able to start from a fresh save and be able to get the full experience rather than have to unlock weapons, movesets, shortcuts etc.

Of course games that don't include a progression system and unlockables have been shitcanned by reviewers for supposedly lacking replay value for a long time now.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

There's also the whole 10tons twin-stick universe, some of which lean much heavier into the 'rouge' elements than others. Neon Chrome is probably their most rouge heavy and it's very good (it's robbed at least 100 hours of my life...)
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by kid aphex »

SPM wrote:I'm gonna have to give Nuclear Throne a go by your comments since I love Enter the Gungeon (put around 100h into it).
I def put quite a few hours into Gungeon, but after I beat it completely I never even considered going back.

I’ve beaten throne a billion times. Plus, it loops and just gets more insane.

Ultimately, Throne is a much more intense experience than Gungeon. It’s quicker to kill, quicker to die, quicker to reload.

Plus, I never felt like I got that much “better” at Gungeon, whereas with Throne, people have watched me play it at higher levels and reacted the same way they would seeing a Stage 5 run in any given Cave SHMUP: Jaws drop.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Marc »

I've made several attempts at Gungeon, but never managed to click with it either. Shame, because all the ingredients are there, it just doesn't have that 'feel' for me. I'm dreading the upcoming Isaac DLC, that will no doubt steal more time than I have available.

Neon Chrome I found a bit tedious. From what I remember, that felt like one of those that was designed so you'd only overcome failure by grinding it over time. Whereas, yes it's a mess, but if the gods are smiling on your run, Isaac can be an occasionally overpowered blast to play. That reminds me, I'm not sure how randomised it is, but I've still got Jydge on the hard drive, which I've yet to start.

Iron Crypticle doesn't get enough love, it's a little sluggish, but I've found this one of the most playable of the bunch. Lost a lot of time to this. Smash TV meets Ghosts n Goblins, what's not to love?

I'm gonna have to try out Nuclear Throne now, this definitely sounds like my jam.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

That reminds me, I'm not sure how randomised it is, but I've still got Jydge on the hard drive, which I've yet to start

It's not randomized at all, and is basically a Neon Chrome mode dlc (they put 'from the Neon Chrome universe' as a sub-title to sort of skirt around the fact it's just a different mode for the same game that they released as its own independent title...) where you have to complete various set missions on set maps. Personally, I didn't find it terribly interesting as it does away with the uncertainty of what's going to be around the next corner and how you should deal with it.
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Eyvah_Ehyeh »

This thread is really becoming a gold mine. :D I'll contribute: I had not played a Touhou game since like number 10, and the newest one is 19, but the one I want to bring up in this context is the one called "Unconnected Marketeers", because it has points you can spend between stages on upgrades, life, etc, which is one of the elements in shmups which I sought after when starting this thread. The other game I want to bring your attention to is one which is just coming out, and seems like right up my alley (although, like always, actually playing something is the only way to truly know), namely roguelike run n gun Godstrike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeWZt41 ... meTrailers
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by CricketyJimit »

Saw this thread and thought I posted already but apparently not :)

Was going to say The Void Rains Upon Her Heart is a nice boss-rush shmup roguelike that I find quite enjoyable even though I'm not usually into roguelikes that much, the dev's obviously put a lot of effort into it and it's also being updated quite a bit just this past month as well.
I'd say it's quite unique/unusual and the difficulty scales well with the low level monsters that you fight being something like a bullet hell novice mode and higher level monsters being more like arcade difficulty - between stages you can pick between a handful of monsters with the higher level ones typically being kind of a gamble for better rewards.

It's on Steam and itch.io and there's a demo on their site https://www.veyeralgames.com/
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Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?

Post by Sima Tuna »

Jonpachi wrote:Project Starship X proves exactly why the idea of a rogue-lite shmup is a bad idea. In a genre built on routing and memorization, forcing it into a procedural model just destroys everything good. You end up with random spikes in difficulty, and no sense of progression. To make up for this, the developers just dump a ton of extra health on top of you to paper over the issues. The game is a mess.
Yeah, I bounced off of Starship X pretty hard. The levels felt super messy and jank.

Nuclear Throne is a fun game, but the devs (Vlambeer) suck. I think they're out of business now though. A lot of the ported versions of Nuclear Throne ran on earlier builds of the game compared to PC and some were outright broken, with constant crashing. I assume modern console versions of the game run fine now, but it left such a bad taste in my mouth to buy a game and realize it was broken and would never, ever be patched. Assuming the modern versions for sale all work fine, the game can be recommended on its own merits if you don't care about the company behavior.

One thing I have to give Throne props for is character selection. Each character brings a totally unique gameplay style and the beginner characters manage to be both approachable and different enough for new players to start developing preferences.

Most "roguelikes" I play are the proper "acktshually..." Turn-based roguelikes. Shiren The Wanderer, Cogmind, Yodanji, Caves of Qud type of shit. Where you move with numpad and one step is one turn. Probably most on shmups forum would consider them boring, but for a turnbased gameplay type, the gameplay moves as fast as you want it to. As fast as you can think and react, that's how fast you can take your turns.

I think a lot of action roguelites struggle to resonate with me because they incorporate a "die your way to victory" approach. In traditional roguelikes, that's not possible. Each run is supposed to be self-contained. Sure, some of the more modern ones can still give you unlockables, like new characters, new classes, new generated items for subsequent runs etc. But each run should be fresh. A roguelike should be totally beatable on a brand new savegame *without dying.* That's how I feel about it, anyway.
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