It's 2021. Why is 'arcade mode' still the default?

[PooshhMao]

I've played DariusBurst CS and Natsuki Chronicles a lot. Part of why I enjoy them so much is that both feature a 'Chronicles' mode, that offers bite-sized chunks of gameplay and saves progress inbetween. If you ask me, this format is much more accessible and suits the home market better than the traditional arcade mode, where you have to play through the entire game in a single session.

In an actual arcade environment, this makes a lot of sense, but at home, this usually boils down to grinding through the first couple of stages over and over until you git gud enough to make progress and see it through the end, aiming for a high score along the way.

I'm starting to believe this format has run it's course (as the default format anyway). I simply can't devote as much time to gaming as I could when I was a carefree teen and I get discouraged having to put in the time required to see all the content the game has to offer.

I've been watching some R-Type Final 2 footage and it looks like it'll adhere to the arcade format, which is a missed opportunity I think.

What are your thoughts?

[Licorice]

I think the arcade format absolutely should be the default format. Most (non-shmup) games today lack the format altogether, let alone have it as the default.

There's ways to facilitate practice within the format. Stage order randomization (e.g. Raiden Fighters 2), or stage order select (e.g. Winds of Thunder), or a boss rush course (e.g. Batrider) are examples. Barring extreme difficulty spikes, these can be almost as efficient as save state practice, but 10 times more fun.

Of course, absent save states, it's good to add dedicated practice modes. Especially for puzzle-like shmups where certain players might need abnormally more practice for certain sections because something just doesn't click. Border Down and Under Defeat on Dreamcast had excellent ones, that let you start from any checkpoint at any rank at any difficulty.

And there's nothing wrong with formats designed around saving progression as I guess slightly more skinner boxed practice modes e.g. Radiant Silvergun's dungeon crawleresque Saturn mode, although it doesn't stray too far from the arcade format.

But to record a score or a clear a mode following the arcade format should be the benchmark.

[donluca]

I think the arcade format absolutely should be the default format.

This.

[qmish]

offers bite-sized chunks of gameplay

Each chapter in DBCS mode is more or less same size as doing one run of DBAC, aka 3-7 stages.

What are you talking about?

[Rastan78]

I'm starting to believe this format has run it's course

Not for me.

Also not really sure what the significance of what the default mode is? Just highlight the mode you like and hit select.

I'm open to seeing more shmups designed completely around a hub world or clearing a larger array of bite sized content over time, but personally I think action platformers on console have always been a better fit for this format.

I do agree that today a shmup that releases without practice mode or extra challenge features is not really complete. Of course if it's a port running via emulation then save states will get the job done.

Also, like most people, I'm very busy with work, family etc. and I find arcade style games are the only ones I can play. If a game only take 25 mins to 1cc I can grind that game for 1cc or score over time and gradually improve by playing small amounts whenever I can. I still find that process very satisfying, whereas playing a game with a 40 hour campaign mode in 20 min chunks every few days does not sound fun.

[XoPachi]

Things have their niche and arcade mode suits the niche of arcade games and it's targeted audience. I personally hate chronicle mode in Darius Burst CS and just want a standard Darius experience. It's not even that it's easy. It's just that I don't want shmups, games already built and balanced around being short but challenging, cut up even further into little pieces that get lost amongst each other. Chronicle mode specifically was just as repetitive and tedious as getting my ass kicked repeatedly to get better in Gradius or Batrider. The difference is the latter is rewarding, the former is forgettable. My mileage is also dependent solely on me. If I suck, the game is gonna drag as much as I continue to suck. Chronicle mode just drags regardless imo. Less is more.

If people can't devote the time, I get this, but it doesn't mean that a classic genre needs to have it's key elements uprooted. There's for sure room for the genre to have modes like this (albeit much better alternatives), but the wording of this post implies the classic formula needs to be secondary and that's backwards to me. If they don't design these games with an arcade mode in mind first and foremost, I imagine that it would suffer greatly if it were still included. An afterthought that might as well have never been one at all.
I don't need nor particularly want everything to be so accessible it loses it's core draw/identity. Think I've seen enough games go this route.

I think to remedy the issue of burnout people feel from arcade modes, what we need are games that pull from SkullGirls and actually *teach* people how to play these games. Not "press A to shoot", I mean really target fundamentals so people can get ahead quicker and not feel so frustrated. It's not like STG's are going to ever pull in a broader crowd anyway so might as well teach people how to run with the big boys.

So again, I'm open to innovation, but keep arcade mode as a standard please.

[Marc]

Also, like most people, I'm very busy with work, family etc. and I find arcade style games are the only ones I can play. If a game only take 25 mins to 1cc I can grind that game for 1cc or score over time and gradually improve by playing small amounts whenever I can. I still find that process very satisfying, whereas playing a game with a 40 hour campaign mode in 20 min chunks every few days does not sound fun.

This. I'm nearing the end of Jedi: Fallen Order now, and all I can think about is how on earth I'm going to manage any of the JRPG's I've got on the hard drive. I've been managing an hour or so of that Mon / Tue / Wed since maybe early Feb, and it's not even supposed to be that huge of a game!

On the other hand, I've logged some 20 hours on Capcom Arcade Stadium already, none of which feels like time wasted.

[Rastan78]

On the other hand, I've logged some 20 hours on Capcom Arcade Stadium already, none of which feels like time wasted.

Do yourself a favor and grab the Aleste Collection if you haven't already. I slept on this for a while thinking I'm more into arcade games than old 8 bit console shmups. But that was a mistake.

It's a perfect set for beginners, or non hardcore shmup maniacs, as some of the games like GG Aleste 1 are extremely forgiving (I cleared it with 20 extends after a couple attempts lol). In the challenge mode you can do any stage or boss, and it auto rewinds to before every death. You can repeat to try and get a gold medal ranking for every section. There is a leaderboard that tracks totals for the challenge mode, so you could play the whole collection in bite sized chunks, while having a larger goal in mind if you prefer. Also there are leaderboards with downloadable replays. In otherwards all the tools needed for anyone to be able to learn these games on normal or special difficulty are there.

Hopefully it gets localized, as I think it could be a great gateway to the genre. On the other hand it's mostly prior fans who will go out of their way to get the pricy import version (totally worth it).

Before GG Aleste 3, I would have said Thunder Force 3 or 4 were an ideal first shmup for new players, but now I'd say this. Also it's a great game for more dedicated players who want a fun, casual break from doing runs on their current game of choice.

[Jeneki]

It's 2021, and you're choosing to play a niche genre and post about it on a phpBB.

Why do I bring this up? Because you've already shown that you don't care what the mainstream wants you to do. And thus, there's no reason to care about what's considered "default". Keep playing the mode you want.

[To Far Away Times]

These games don't really work if there isn't some kind of accomplishment tied to them. Reckless destruction is fun and all, but that's only good for a few play throughs at most.

Practice modes and/or saves states are almost as important to these games as online play is to fighting games. If it's missing, it takes away from the overall package.

[MathU]

If scrolling shooters stopped focusing on prominent "arcade modes", then I would stop playing them. A constrained 20-60min complete test of skill is the entire reason I play arcade game genres. No other video game experience can develop the kind of tension, thrill, and satisfaction that comes from spending such a lengthy period of time with total focus and increasing peril as you approach the end where all the expenditure up to that point is on the line. It's the very fact of the genre not allowing the player to stop and come back later that makes it so exciting.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Arcade mode is still the default because

-Shmups are not a mainstream genre, which means people are less willing to experiment with it.
-Shmups don't pay as much as the more mainstream genres either, which means people aren't willing to take risks with them.
-The shmup community doesn't trust new, fresh-developer shmups much (rightfully so, but that isn't relevant to this).
-The amount of crappy shmups and their typical failure creates an illusion of anything that doesn't stick to existing formulas failing.
-The genre is highly focused on scoring by tradition, which means long-term playability is usually not a priority.
-Making an "expansive" shmup beyond a glorified level select has rarely, if ever, been done - people have to come up with this stuff instead of copying existing work.
(Interestingly a lot of roguelikes get pretty shmuppy, some even explicitly so, but that's a mismash of a few different genres and probably not the kind of game this discussion was aimed at)

[Rastan78]

You might want to check out Monolith.

While I will always be a fan of arcade style one credit gameplay first, the genre does seem like it could use some experimentation in the console front.

What about a game that is a twinstick shooter but plays out kind of like a musou game where you cover a bigger territory and have to gain control of different areas? Something like that could play out over a longer campaign with unlockable skills and all that thrown in. Only there you run the risk of the extra non arcade elements just feeling like padding. Would that game really be any more fun than geometry wars?

[Ghegs]

A constrained 20-60min complete test of skill

This really is the thing that makes a difference, and is what separates arcade games from most other genres. You have to be consistently good at every part of the game, not just "good enough to get past it once". Even in the difficult games of more mainstream variety (Dark Souls, Sekiro, etc) you only have to beat that difficult encounter once, and then never again (unless you replay the entire game, of course).

It's the arcade mode that makes these games unique. I don't think I'd have the time and energy anymore to challenge these games without a way to practice later stages/bosses, so having both the bite-sized challenges and the full experience is almost mandatory. But a game with only the bite-sized parts wouldn't hold my interest.

[Elixir]

Reddit brain thread.

It won't ever matter what year it is. You could have said anything from 2000 until now. The answer is that it's the industry standard, so people expect an arcade mode with their purchase because it's fundamentally the base game.

I've been watching some R-Type Final 2 footage and it looks like it'll adhere to the arcade format, which is a missed opportunity I think.

You think it's a missed opportunity because a new R-Type game has an arcade mode? You do realize all of the people that backed the project on Kickstarter are expecting a new R-Type game, right? You must have not been around when R-Type Tactics was announced, and everyone was disappointed that it was some sort of RPG instead...

What, do you expect them to add a fucking 1000-level progressively-unlock-everything thing like Dariusburst CS just so you can play it in pieces while you tend to your kid screaming in the background? How many people actually bothered with that mode? I didn't, I played a few levels before saying "no, this is dumb, just give me the real game". I don't play a shmup to unlock everything or level up. It's dumb in Eschatos too. This is like asking "why don't they release fighting games for consoles without online mode in order to keep arcades alive". It's because nobody wants that.

Also, 1ccing is just a stepping stone into scoring (it's not an "end goal"), the concept of scoring is irrelevant if there aren't arcade guidelines to adhere by. Otherwise you end up with funny "haha I have the highest score because I looped Otomedius 22 times while pausing to take breaks" scores on the leaderboards.

[Sumez]

The fact that a pure arcade experience is already disappointingly rare in 2021 is the reason you'd want to axe what little still remains of it?

I'm not buying it.

[Rastan78]

I get discouraged having to put in the time required to see all the content the game has to offer.

That's not really the goal with arcade games IMO. I mean discovering a game for the first time is cool, but beyond that learning to master it through repetition and problem solving is the whole deal. It sounds like you're wanting to play Uncharted or something.

Also, 1ccing is just a stepping stone into scoring (it's not an "end goal")

In my case I agree. I think of first 1cc as the point where you graduate from beginner to intermediate in a game, but expert is a very long way off.

That being said I know many players like to collect 1ccs and move on and that's as valid a way to play as any. To me that's a bit like learning all the moves and combos in a fighting game and then quitting right as you are starting to become competent, but I get it.

Also even if you're a high score kind of player you don't know how far a game will draw you in. There will be games that you clear and say that was fun, but I'm done with it. There are players that have specialized in certain games for 10 or 15 years, but I doubt they had planned on that in the beginning.

[pja]

Well, I on the other hand have asked myself that question as well... and I can honestly say that I don't know. The fact that almost no one on this forum agrees with you is not really surprising, since it naturally attracts people that are fine with the way the genre is... but I had a bit more difficult history with it

I'm really not sure why arcade mode is still the default, but I suspect the answer is "because shmups kept doing it and it just stuck" I see no fundamental reason why e.g. action platformers didn't go in that direction, but they didn't - pretty early on lots of the prominent ones went for the infinite checkpoint style (think Castlevania NES, or Mega Man), but shmups didn't - and for some reason they continued not do that for a long time. Maybe because they kept focusing more on actual arcades than on consoles?

I'm more of the "platformer" guy myself, but shmups was always a genre that I wanted to like - it really seemed like something I should enjoy, I certainly like action, overcoming challenges etc. But the fact that it presented me with the choice of either "go back to the very start of the game after every death" versus "credit feed until the end, stripping you of the satisfaction of overcoming any challenge" made it very hard for me to like it. It certainly never made any sense for me, but I've never been to an arcade in my life

I like when the game has a clear win condition, but in case of the arcade games the only one that is non-arbitrary and makes any sort of sense is indeed a 1cc... but that's a bit of an extreme goal for most people. Beating the whole (non-arcade style) game without game-overing is the sort of thing that people only do when they like a particular game a lot. To date, the only game I did 1cc is Radiant Silvergun, because I think it's incredibly cool and I wanted to "beat it". But I think this game could work pretty well with a checkpoint style (if you dealt with some problems like the weapon leveling system) - it's very long, has a cool presentation, lots of bosses (especially in Saturn mode) etc.

I mean discovering a game for the first time is cool, but beyond that learning to master it through repetition and problem solving is the whole deal.

That actually reminds me of another reason why I like the checkpoint-style much more, at least for the first playthroughs - you naturally get rewarded for overcoming difficult obstacles for the first time - you get to see a new level (and potentially a new cool boss and another cool challenge). Infinite credits strips you of that sense of accomplishment, since if you want to, you can just see what's ahead by credit feeding. (And well, yeah you could just not do that, but that requires some self-control, and of course it's much more difficult to progress through the game if you never continue).

That being said, I get that when you start designing the game for checkpoint style, 1cc'ing may become less viable of a goal - because suddenly the game is just that much longer, and is no longer a "20-60min complete test of skill", but a 3 hour one, which is something that no one wants to do. It just boils down to the fact that you can't please both crowds, and shmups already attracted that other type of crowd.

I've played DariusBurst CS and Natsuki Chronicles a lot. Part of why I enjoy them so much is that both feature a 'Chronicles' mode,

So what you're saying is that I should check these games out

[Sumez]

I'm really not sure why arcade mode is still the default, but I suspect the answer is "because shmups kept doing it and it just stuck"

a) Because it's inherently an arcade genre
b) Because most attempts at changing that format have resulted in awful euroshmup jank
c) What's wrong with arcade mode?
d) All of the above

[pja]

a) Because it's inherently an arcade genre

That seems like a non-explanation to me. Shmups are mostly arcade style because they're an arcade genre, but why are they an arcade genre? Because they're mostly arcade-style?

b) Because most attempts at changing that format have resulted in awful euroshmup jank

I think there may be some truth to this one, but I'm not that well versed in said eurojank Could you give me some examples? (also there is always a chance that I may like these to some extent).

c) What's wrong with arcade mode?

There's nothing wrong, I'm just wondering aloud why it came to be that shmups = arcade, platformers = console. I think in some alternate universe it could very well be that you had plenty games in both styles in both genres, but for some reason it just didn't happen.

[SPM]

@pja Any shmup with stage select or a deeper training system (like the basic stage/mid stage/boss select) will do it for you then. Take each of those as the "levels/checkpoints" of a platformer, and try to progress through until you reach and beat the last "level/checkpoint". Problem solved

Games like Jamestown+ do this with more bells and whistles, but in the end it's the same thing.

But keep the arcade mode and design the game around it, or shmups will be another thing. No 1CC, no scoring, no arcade, no happiness

[pja]

@pja Any shmup with stage select or a deeper training system (like the basic stage/mid stage/boss select) will do it for you then. Take each of those as the "levels/checkpoints" of a platformer, and try to progress through until you reach and beat the last "level/checkpoint". Problem solved

Yeah it actually mostly solves that problem - I'm currently playing through Ikaruga that way, and I think the level select might be part of the reason why this one got into mainstream a bit as opposed to Silvergun.
(Except that I already beat every stage from the beginning, but it doesn't let me "win" unless I 1CC But the game is also really cool so I want to do it anyway).

Games like Jamestown+ do this with more bells and whistles, but in the end it's the same thing.

I had some discussions similar to this one in various internet places and every time someone mentions Jamestown - I think I should finally play it (although last time I wanted to, it didn't have my local currency set on Steam so I couldn't buy it )

But keep the arcade mode and design the game around it, or shmups will be another thing. No 1CC, no scoring, no arcade, no happiness

Well it sure seems like there's no danger of that happening, if it didn't happen already

[Sumez]

There's nothing wrong, I'm just wondering aloud why it came to be that shmups = arcade, platformers = console. I think in some alternate universe it could very well be that you had plenty games in both styles in both genres, but for some reason it just didn't happen.

Console platformers often focus on a whole lot of other things than arcade platformers. You could argue it's not the same genre, too, but it's a pretty wide umbrella, that allows for gameplay going in a lot of different directions.
Shmups is such a "pure" genre, it's hard to really change anything about it without essentially changing the genre. There are tons of games out there that play like some variation of a shmup, but aren't considered as such because, well, they are completely different kinds of games. Titles like Binding of Isaac and such.

And yeah, I miss arcade platformers, too. Like, a lot.

[Licorice]

I think the level select might be part of the reason why this one got into mainstream a bit as opposed to Silvergun.

Ikaruga had a belated Western release on the GC, due to high import numbers for the DC release due to the fans Silvergun established. I think this helped its popularity more than the practice mode.

Silvergun's dungeon diving-like Saturn mode provides a pretty noob friendly gameplay loop, IMO. More familiar than grinding individual stages, for sure.

Except that I already beat every stage from the beginning, but it doesn't let me "win" unless I 1CC

Good.

[Rastan78]

Maybe at the basic level the fact that shmups autoscroll helped to keep them in their stripped down arcadey form.

When you have a sidescrolling action platformer or a top down dungeon crawler player movement is at your own pace in any direction. This makes it easy to see how exploration and alternate structures can come into play. Contra can become Metroid. Gauntlet can become Zelda. You saw all kinds of console type elements work their way into arcade action games even back in the 80s. From more open level design to shops with RPG style upgrades.

What can you really do with a shmup besides organize the levels in a different format? And like beat em ups, padding a shmup out with 10 hours of gameplay is not going to improve it.

[Mortificator]

Maybe at the basic level the fact that shmups autoscroll helped to keep them in their stripped down arcadey form.

When you have a sidescrolling action platformer or a top down dungeon crawler player movement is at your own pace in any direction. This makes it easy to see how exploration and alternate structures can come into play. Contra can become Metroid. Gauntlet can become Zelda. You saw all kinds of console type elements work their way into arcade action games even back in the 80s. From more open level design to shops with RPG style upgrades.

What can you really do with a shmup besides organize the levels in a different format? And like beat em ups, padding a shmup out with 10 hours of gameplay is not going to improve it.

I was thinking the same thing as I scrolled down through the thread. There's also the issue of just... being a person on foot. From there it's an easy reach to talking to people, flipping switches, pushing blocks, and various other environmental manipuation. When your're playing as a combat craft up in the sky - not the only shmup avatar, but the most common - contact with terrain is unnatural and your only means of interaction is shooting and bombing stuff.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Streets of Rage 4 tried to do this sort of thing for beat 'em ups, but only ends up kind of getting both things wrong. The main game mode of resetting lives after each stage lacks challenge and isn't long enough to offer the "content" the modern audience craves. But the arcade mode is exactly the same game and too long as a result.

I don't think it's worth pandering to the modern mainstream audience. They either want some compelling narrative "experience" over gameplay, or a throwaway multiplayer lolfest. Making a classic genre game that you literally play for 15 hours and cannot lose won't bring in a modern audience but doesn't give the existing market what they want. But if you make it difficult enough that it's not a pushover, you risk turning off the casual anyway but the experienced player is fatigued by the length.

A good length for an arcade mode is anywhere between 20 and 40 mins I'd say. Even the most time-pressed person can toss a few credits in or credit feed until the end to let off a bit of steam. If you can't get anything out of that, perhaps it's time to hang up the controller.

[Despatche]

I've played DariusBurst CS and Natsuki Chronicles a lot. Part of why I enjoy them so much is that both feature a 'Chronicles' mode, that offers bite-sized chunks of gameplay and saves progress inbetween. If you ask me, this format is much more accessible and suits the home market better than the traditional arcade mode, where you have to play through the entire game in a single session.

In an actual arcade environment, this makes a lot of sense, but at home, this usually boils down to grinding through the first couple of stages over and over until you git gud enough to make progress and see it through the end, aiming for a high score along the way.

I'm starting to believe this format has run it's course (as the default format anyway). I simply can't devote as much time to gaming as I could when I was a carefree teen and I get discouraged having to put in the time required to see all the content the game has to offer.

You have this completely wrong, and what you're asking for is actually dangerous. This is not a "fans are resistant to change" argument like a lot of people seem to think. This is a "the sky should be some other color" argument. You're arguing against something very fundamental simply because you personally dislike it, and from the very wrong position of "this doesn't work for busy people" when it actually does. It is actually the "arcade" format that works better for busy people, and arcade games were (are, really) often played by people with jobs as much as they were played by teenagers or whoever.

Breaking the game up into chunks like that encourages the developer to go too far and add too many chunks, or start adding "weird" chunks that don't fit with the rest of the game, and eventually you get into a situation similar to feature creep. Dariusburst CS is a stellar example of this. CS Mode is a gigantic mess of a handful (in comparison) of chunks randomly stitched together. It is every bit as bad as the original Event Mode in DBAC. Both are massive slogs and unless you dedicate a very long period of patience (never mind time) to these modes, you will never see the end of either. Strangely, these modes are also somehow bad examples, because they play like busted versions of the normal AC modes anyway. Have I mentioned that one of the most universal complaints against shmups is that they're perceived as too short, regardless of how long they actually are and completely ignoring the concept of replay value? Do you really think breaking games into chunks will make this problem better? Noone fell for it with Dariusburst CS; everyone saw CS Mode for what it was, even if they don't see "arcade genres" for what they are.

Natsuki Chronicles Story Mode is just Arcade Mode, but you write to a save between stages. It's completely unnecessary, much like the similar ability to save in the original version of the first Castlevania (yes, you could do that). It could have been replaced entirely by a cutscene on/off toggle, plus a quicksave feature like Hydorah. It's not interesting at all, and Natsuki Chronicles is not even a particularly long game to the point that it would really warrant such a mode. Modes like this only make sense if you're not at all concerned about the gameplay,

Mind, there are things like what you're talking about, that work within their own contexts. Dariusburst AC's normal modes are a better example of what you're talking about than anything else in the game, because they are relatively short 3-stage affairs, and there are many to choose from, basically all unique and structured in a mostly sensible way. There are caravan modes, which really need to make a resurgence. There are things like the "photo" Touhou games, where you play each attack pattern separately, though you could totally make a "normal" game out of that and I'm genuinely surprised noone's tried.

If you treat the "arcade mode" as an obstacle course, you will appreciate it better. You can't just do parts of an obstacle course, as that would be far too simple (not necessarily "easy")... unless you're practicing certain parts specifically in expectation to do the whole course.

It's 2021, so we should stop talking about "the arcades". Stop calling these "Arcade Mode" and just call them "Normal Mode". We should recognize that some of these so-called arcade trappings are normal and good things that should be treated as the baseline for making any game in an "arcade genre" ("short" 30~60 minute but dense play modes), and that some of these trappings were always bad and never should have been put into a video game period (credit feeding).

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Spoiler

Listen buddy. I appreciate the effort behind your wall of text, but just because taito or some other devs didn't get this right doesn't mean that a high-content shmup is not possible and shouldn't be attemtped. I've provided a nice list of reasons for the OP's question earlier but that doesn't invalidate the prospect of someone trying to make such a game. There could be many implementations that the shmup community would actually approve of, and stating otherwise is silly considering anything can become a game.

I will however agree that arcade mode is, in fact, normal mode for shmups.

[XoPachi]

And yeah, I miss arcade platformers, too. Like, a lot.

Have you seen this before? It's a lot of fun. c:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1508460/Annalynn/