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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:31 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2020
Posts: 103
Comments on the Reitaisai demo below. Spoilered in case anyone who's waiting on the Steam demo doesn't want their impressions colored.
Spoiler: show
You pick two starting items and buy one after each stage. The items on offer are random selection + generic resources + a special item associated with the stage boss. Items unlock as starting items once you've purchased them on a run.

Options contribute a lot of your total damage and dying drops power by a full level (hello UFO). One of the passive items enhances your base shot so it feels on about the level of earlier games, and some items grant helper options that stick around permanently. I guess the idea is that you use the item helpers as insurance against chain deaths.

Scoring is inane. There's no grazing, no cancel PIV (easily missed opportunity, just make the bullets turn into money) and the spell card bonuses don't scale. Money items are point items, and the current money in hand affects the item value. You can print money by hitting bullets with the mallet; C items recharge on a timer, but one of the passive items gives you cooldown reduction. Hence you stall out every pattern waiting for the hammer to recharge so you can cancel the densest point, repeat through the whole game while spending/losing as little as possible, and there's your score.

The Sakuya shottype is similar to PCB Sakuya-B with smoother tilting and adjustable spread width via vertical movement. I find it really fucking irritating to control: the waggling speed decays the closer it gets to neutral, and any unplanned unfocused movement leads to it drifting about organically on both axes.

Danmaku isn't very interesting. Nonspells are kinda obnoxious and probably harder than any of the spells shown so far. The music is about as generic as it gets, although the stage 3 track's opening melody sounds rather familiar. The character art's okay. The vibe/personality isn't coming through much at all to me, but it's not like it's the first time that's happened in a demo. I think I find this one more tolerable than the last two-and-a-half games (excluding The Game That Shall Not Be Named), which isn't exactly praise. The best I can say is that this could be DDC 2, since that's a game I quite like in spite of/due to its complete brokenness.


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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:45 am 


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So this is a problem

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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:53 am 


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Yeah, apparently some kind of bug that lets you buy stuff infinitely or something, presumably it's on the to-fix list.
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:24 pm 


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This is a bit different from what I was expecting. There's item spam, but it's not quite like what I was thinking. I get the feeling there will be cheevos for not using cards. The card RNG is dumb but if it's feasible to just use zero cards, I genuinely don't care.

That bug is high-larious and I hope he fixes the trial at least. The full game is supposed to be out in like two months though. That being said, I know people seem to think this bug is "obvious" because it's easy to do, but it's not. This is the kind of thing that you never think about until the last minute. It might be fixed, it might not, but since it's so "obvious", it's also very easy to ban.
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:12 am 



Joined: 29 Jul 2013
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Out now on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1566 ... arketeers/

Comiket 99 was cancelled because of the state of emergency, so I guess it went straight to Steam this time.


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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:31 pm 


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It's been counterstopped already, and there's a complete invulnerability exploit that's been discovered if using autofire. Oh, ZUN. :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:27 pm 


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I've enjoyed this thread immensely.


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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 8:42 pm 


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Oh.

You kids have fun with that, then.

I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 9:13 pm 


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Also on DLSite if you want it DRM-free. Y'know, once it's un-borked. :P
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:14 pm 



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I doubt it's going to be truly un-borked. Even if the counterstop point is raised by a couple of orders of magnitude it won't stop the scoring system from being fundamentally stupid. The charm point here is doing silly shit by messing around with the cards. I don't think this one has much going for it besides that. The survival difficulty appears comparatively high, but there's little motivation to go through with no-card play when it's not the fun part of the game.

One thing I can say for sure: this is the worst-sounding Touhou game since SoEW. The music's not shit or anything but I got tired of all the tracks after hearing them a couple of times which isn't a good sign.
Actually benefited from turning the BGM off.


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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:41 pm 


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NNN for life. No UFOs, no 13 hypers, no releases, no 17 hypers, and no cards. Just do it.
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 10:58 pm 



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Right, and my point is that LNN will normally make you appreciate a game a great deal whereas in this case I can't see it doing anything but making it worse. Without cards, there's no reason to play this over anything else. It's not some extraneous crutch system, it's the entire appeal of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 12:14 am 


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What does that even mean? It's literally all the same shit.

Also 14.3 exists which is basically the same thing, except that game actively encourages you to not use items.

The game is better without cards, of course. These games always end up better without the gimmick.
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:00 am 



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What I'm saying is by refusing cards cold turkey you don't get a fuller appreciation of the game, you get a generic modern Touhou game with tons of HP bloat and no upside. When I cap a spell and I have 2 extra variety options and a tiny fixed thing that blocks bullets it's not like I've tranced or aggressively border broke, I've still had to deal with the pattern. Giving the player more tools to mess around with is only a bad thing when they trivialize gameplay - which a number of the cards do, but you can just not buy those.

Obviously, an NNN(N?) is going to be an accomplishment. I'm sure it takes plenty of skill and dedication, and I'm sure the scoring will too if the counterstop gets fixed. But also much like the scoring, I've yet to experience a reason to recommend someone bother doing it and not just play a better game instead. On the other hand, LNN with passive items? Might be alright, runs get different tools, you get to think on your feet a bit. Suddenly the rest of the game's shortcomings don't seem so stark.

Don't get me wrong though, using the cards isn't a glorification of the game either. The whole thing could have done with some serious thinking through instead of whatever confused mess it currently resembles, but we don't get that from these games.

Edit: And don't tell me something like "cards undermine the game design". That's giving ZUN way too much credit. If there's any game design he actually put thought into, it's in the card part, not the shooting part, and definitely not the scoring part.


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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 8:11 pm 


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The game is going to have the "HP bloat" whether you use the mechanic or not.

Assuming they even bother to put the game up, I imagine royalflare will ban active cards, yes.

"generic" is such a strange word to use here, and we're talking about a series that literally reuses assets for numerous games. Oh well.

Touhou 16 is a MUCH better game without releases, by the way. "boring" or not, it's substantially better.
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 Post subject: Re: Touhou 18: Unconnected Marketeers
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 1:39 am 


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Well uhh... this is a MASSIVE problem

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