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 Post subject: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:50 pm 


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Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 539
Location: 'Strailya
Top 25 Shmups of All Time (through 2020)
Code:
##. Game                                               Score  02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
01. Ketsui ~Kizuna Jigoku Tachi~ (ARC/360/PS3/PS4)      7.76   .  *  *  *  *  *  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  +
02. Battle Garegga (ARC/SAT/PS4/XB1)                    7.48   +  +  *  +  +  +  -  -  -  -  -  =  -  =  +  =  =
03. DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou / Black Label (ARC/360/etc.)  6.91   *  +  +  +  +  =  =  ~  =  +  +  =  +  -  -  =  +
04. Mushihimesama Futari / 1.5 / Black Label (ARC/360)  6.66   .  .  .  .  *  *  +  ~  ~  -  -  -  -  =  +  =  -
05. Ikaruga (ARC/DC/GC/360/PC/SWI)                      5.45   -  -  -  -  =  -  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
06. Crimzon Clover / World Ignition / etc. (PC/etc.)    5.38   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  *  *  *  +  =  +  +  -  +
07. DoDonPachi (ARC/SAT/PSX)                            5.32   -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  =  -  -  -  -
08. Armed Police Batrider (ARC)                         4.84   *  *  +  *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  +
09. Radiant Silvergun (ARC/SAT/360)                     4.45   +  -  -  -  -  -  +  +  *  +  +  +  +  =  =  +  +
10. Darius Gaiden (ARC/SAT/PSX/PS2/etc.)                4.27   *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  +  *  *  +  +  +  *  *  +
11. Gradius V (PS2)                                     4.18   .  .  -  -  -  -  -  -  +  *  =  +  +  +  =  -  -
12. ZeroRanger (PC)                                     4.17   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  +
13. Dangun Feveron / Fever SOS (ARC/PS4/XB1)            3.92   *  *  *  *  *  *  +  +  *  *  *  *  *  +  +  +  -
14. Mushihimesama / 1.5 (ARC/PS2/360/PC)                3.64   .  .  *  +  +  -  -  +  *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
15. R-Type (ARC/PCE/PSX/etc.)                           3.63   -  -  -  -  *  =  +  -  +  +  +  -  -  +  +  -  +
16. ESP Ra.De. / Psi (ARC/PS4/SWI)                      3.38   -  -  +  +  -  =  +  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  -
17. Gradius Gaiden (PSX/PSP)                            3.37   +  +  -  -  -  -  *  =  *  +  *  *  +  +  -  -  =
18. ESPGaluda / Arrange (ARC/PS2)                       3.22   .  *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  =  -  *  +  -  -
19. Gunbird 2 (ARC/DC/SWI)                              3.19   +  -  -  +  -  *  *  -  -  -  +  =  *  -  -  +  *
20. RayForce / Layer Section / etc. (ARC/PS2/SAT/etc.)  3.18   *  -  -  +  -  -  +  *  *  *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
21. Mars Matrix (ARC/DC)                                3.14   -  +  -  -  -  -  -  -  =  -  +  -  +  -  -  *  -
22. G-Darius (ARC/PS2/PSX)                              3.00   *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
23. Deathsmiles / Mega Black Label (ARC/360)            2.85   .  .  .  .  .  *  *  ~  -  *  -  =  *  *  *  +  -
24. Cho Ren Sha 68K (PC/X68)                            2.70   *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
25. Strikers 1945 II (ARC/SAT/PSX/PS2/SWI)              2.55   -  -  -  -  *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  *

  • = denotes the game holds the same position now as the year indicated.
  • + denotes the game holds an improved standing compared to the year indicated.
  • - denotes the game holds a reduced standing compared to the year indicated.
  • * denotes the game was not on the list for the year indicated.
  • . denotes the game was not released or otherwise eligible for voting for the year indicated.
  • ~ denotes the game vote was classified (significantly) differently for the year indicated.


Honourable Mention
Code:
Game                                                    02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
Akai Katana (ARC/360)                                    .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  =  -  =  +  =  =  +  =
Batsugun / Batsugun Special (ARC/SAT)                    =  -  -  =  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
Battle Bakraid (ARC)                                     +  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  -  =  -  =  =  =  +  =
Blue Revolver (PC)                                       .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  +  +  =
Darius Burst: AC / EX / Chronicle Saviours (PC/etc.)     .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  +  +  +  -  -  =  +  =
Dimahoo / Great Mahou Daisakusen (ARC)                   +  =  =  =  +  +  +  +  =  =  =  =  =  +  +  +  =
DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu / 1.5 / Resurrection (ARC/etc.)   .  .  .  .  .  .  +  +  =  -  =  =  =  =  =  -  -
DoDonPachi Saidaioujou (ARC/360)                         .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  -  -  =  =  =  =  =
DonPachi (ARC/SAT/PSX)                                   -  -  -  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  +  =  =
Dragon Blaze (ARC/PS2/SWI)                               +  +  =  =  =  =  =  =  -  -  =  =  -  =  -  =  =
Eschatos (360/PC)                                        .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  =  =  =  -  =  +  =  -
ESPGaluda II (ARC/360)                                   .  .  .  +  +  +  =  -  -  -  -  -  =  =  =  +  =
Flame Zapper Kotsujin (PC-98)                            +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
Flying Shark / Hishouzame / Sky Shark (ARC/NES/etc.)     +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  =  +  =  =  =  =
Giga Wing (ARC/DC)                                       +  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  =  =  =  =  =  +  =
Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou (ARC/SAT/FC/etc.)             +  =  =  =  +  =  +  +  =  =  +  =  =  =  =  =  =
Gradius III (SNES)                                       -  =  =  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =
Gradius / Nemesis (ARC/NES/PCE/etc.)                     =  =  =  +  +  +  +  =  =  +  =  =  +  +  =  =  +
Guwange (ARC/360)                                        -  -  =  -  =  -  -  -  -  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =
Hellsinker (PC)                                          .  .  .  .  +  +  +  +  +  =  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
Ibara (ARC/PS2)                                          .  .  .  =  =  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  =  =  =  =
Imperishable Night [Touhou 8] (PC)                       .  .  =  +  +  +  +  +  =  =  =  +  =  +  +  +  +
Kamui (PC)                                               +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  =  +  +  =
Mahou Daisakusen / Sorcer Striker (ARC/X68/FMT/PS4)      +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =
Muchi Muchi Pork! (ARC/360)                              .  .  .  .  .  +  +  +  -  -  -  =  -  =  -  =  =
Neko Navy (PC/SWI)                                       .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  +  +
Perfect Cherry Blossom [Touhou 7] (PC)                   .  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =
Progear no Arashi (ARC)                                  +  +  +  =  =  -  -  =  =  =  =  =  =  -  -  =  =
Raiden DX (ARC/PSX)                                      +  +  -  -  -  =  -  =  -  =  -  =  =  -  =  =  =
Raiden Fighters Jet (ARC/360)                            +  =  =  +  +  =  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  =  =  =
Rolling Gunner (PC/SWI)                                  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  +  +
R-Type Delta (PSX)                                       =  =  -  -  -  =  +  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  -  =
Salamander 2 (ARC/SAT/PSX)                               +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  +  =  =  =
Soukyugurentai / Terra Diver (SAT/ARC/PSX)               -  -  -  -  -  -  =  -  =  -  =  =  =  =  =  =  =
Strikers 1999 / Strikers 1945 III (ARC)                  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  =  =  +  =  =  =  =  +
Tatsujin / Truxton (ARC/GEN/PCE)                         +  =  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =
Thunder Dragon 2 (ARC)                                   +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  =  =  -  -  -
Thunder Force IV / Lightening Force (MD/GEN/SAT)         -  -  -  -  -  -  =  +  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =
Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger (ARC/PCE/etc.)               +  =  +  +  =  =  +  +  +  =  +  =  +  =  +  =  =
Under Defeat (ARC/DC/360/PS3)                            .  .  .  +  -  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  -  -  -  =

  • = denotes the game was also on the HM list for the year indicated.
  • + denotes the game was on neither the HM list nor the top 25 for the year indicated.
  • - denotes the game was in the top 25 for the year indicated.
  • . denotes the game was not released or otherwise eligible for voting for the year indicated.



What Dropped from 2019's Top 25:
  • Batsugun / Batsugun Special (ARC/SAT)
  • DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu / 1.5 / Resurrection (ARC/etc.)
  • Eschatos (360/PC)
  • Thunder Dragon 2 (ARC)

What Dropped from 2019's Honourable Mentions:
  • Blue Wish Resurrection / Plus (PC)
  • Dogyuun (ARC)
  • Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same! (ARC/GEN)
  • Gun.Smoke (ARC)
  • Judgement Silversword (WSC/360/PC)
  • Mecha Ritz / Steel Rondo (PC/SWI)
  • Out Zone (ARC)
  • Raiden (ARC/PSX/etc.)
  • Raiden Fighters 2: Operation Hell Dive (ARC/360)
  • Soldier Blade (PCE)
  • Tatsujin Oh / Truxton II (ARC/FMT)



Breakdown by Developer
Code:
                   Top 25         Hon.M.          Overall
Cave                  9               9              18
Raizing               2               4              6
Konami                1               4              5
Psikyo                2               2              4
Toaplan               -               4              4
Treasure              3               -              3
Taito                 3               -              3
Irem                  1               1              2
Takumi                1               1              2
Seibu Kaihatsu        -               2              2
Team Shanghai Alice   -               2              2
Famibe no Yosshin     1               -              1
Yotsubane             1               -              1
System Erasure        1               -              1
G.rev                 -               1              1
NMK                   -               1              1
Qute                  -               1              1
Ruminant's Whimper    -               1              1
DeathMofuMofu         -               1              1
CO2 Pro               -               1              1
Stellar Circle        -               1              1
Siter Skain           -               1              1
Mebius.               -               1              1
Technosoft            -               1              1
Pyramid               -               1              1



Breakdown by Original Platform
Code:
System             Top 25         Hon.M.          Overall
Arcade                20             28              48
PC/Windows             2              7               9
PlayStation            1              1               2
PlayStation 2          1              -               1
X68000                 1              -               1
Xbox 360               -              1               1
Mega Drive/Genesis     -              1               1
SNES                   -              1               1
PC-98                  -              1               1



Most Personal Honourable Mentions (no. of [0])
Code:
Game                                                No. of appearances
Musha Aleste / M.U.S.H.A. (GEN)                           5
Mecha Ritz / Steel Rondo (PC/SWI)                         5
Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou (ARC/SAT/FC/etc.)              4
Soldier Blade (PCE)                                       4
Gate of Thunder (PCE-CD)                                  4



Miscellaneous Stats:
  • Number of Counted Voters: 67
  • Total Vote Weight: 65.25
  • Number of Games Voted For: 396
  • Number of Honourable Mentions: 40
  • Proportion of Voters who chose to use a Shortlist: 0.10 (7/67)
  • Proportion of Voters who chose to include Personal Honourable Mentions: 0.34 (23/67)
  • Proportion of Personal Honourable Mentions included where eligible: 0.38 (23/60)
  • Number of Games Receiving Only [0]'s: 40
  • Games Supported by at least half of voters (≥33.5 combined): 2
  • Games Supported by at least 1/4 of voters (≥16.75 combined): 21
  • Top 25 Score Spread: 2.550 - 7.759
  • Honourable Mention Score Spread: 1.278 - 2.488
  • Total Score Spread: 0.038 - 7.759



Random Comments:
  • This year's first surprise approaches in the form of the huge battle ship G-Darius, which has managed to pull off a quadruple laser counter and secure a T25 slot. Series predecessor Darius Gaiden has similarly gained unprecedented ground, rising far enough to bookend the top ten placings. The numbers suggest this is the year everybody decided they really wanted some tuna sashimi.
  • Our other new accomplishment goes to dual doujin and home computer flag-bearer Cho Ren Sha 68K, which some are suspecting of wrapping back around past position 0 while they weren't looking; following in its vapour trail are handful of similar titles making the jump to Honourable Speed.
  • The discussion thread for this year's poll is here.
  • The votes for this year's poll can be found here.
  • The full results have been received and reproduced here.
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Last edited by Nifty on Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:49 pm 


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oh my god G-DARIUS and CHO REN SHA have joined the gang!
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:06 pm 


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Posts: 71
A lot of Cave games slipped to lower positions within the Top 25 this year:

Mushi Futari
DoDonPachi
Dangun Feveron
Mushi
ESP Ra De
ESPGaluda
Deathsmiles
and DoDonPachi Daifukkatsu fell completely out.

Only Ketsui and Dai Ou Jou went up within the Top 25.

Interesting...

On an unrelated side note, Ikaruga has now shown 11 straight years of improvement :shock:

Last but not least, a big THANK YOU to Nifty for taking the time to put these together every year!


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:38 pm 


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TD2 :cry:
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:40 pm 


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Toaplan = honourable mention


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:42 pm 



Joined: 03 Mar 2020
Posts: 98
Cho Ren Sha and G-Darius in the top 25. ZeroRanger way up at #12. DDP at one of its lowest spots ever and below CCWI/WEX (come on, we can still go lower). Ikaruga continuing to creep up the list when nobody's looking. More volatile juggling of the HMs. But above all, do you see that market share rising? The Year of The Hellsinker Shortlist will soon be upon us!
BloodHawk wrote:
Here are the Cave games that slipped to lower positions within the Top 25 this year:

The number/proportions of Cave games represented is about the same as ever though. The results variety is slightly worse this year than last time, which isn't unexpected. But - if I'm not being stupid - the total number of different games voted for proportionate to the number of voters is the highest it's been in over 10 years.

Thanks for your work Nifty.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:48 pm 


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Dangun Feveron 13th best shooter of all time feels wrong.

Twinbee Yahhoo is underrated, maybe the best shooter Konami put out? Is there a cute em up resistance?

Seems M2 have boosted Darius and Mahou Daisakusen, so bring us Brave Blade HD next!
People don't like juggling bells or medals or what? They prefer to shoot enemies one at a time at a very constant pace?

That said, this is a nice list!


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:31 pm 


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I'm happy to see Cho Ren Sha 68k in the top 25, and I wasn't expecting Kotsujin to reach the HMs but that's cool too.
Some Toaplans dropping from the HMs is a bit sad for me but at least Hishouzame's still there.

Thanks for doing this again Nifty!
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:34 pm 



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Posts: 145
Most surprising is that GG Aleste 3 didn't make the cut at all...even as an honourable mention. Given all the chatter about it leading up to this, I thought it was definitely going to be in there somewhere (which I also thought a little strange given its newness.). IIRC it was mentioned all over the top 25 discussion thread amongst other places.


I thought at the very least, it would have made a showing if not a high position


As always..thanks for compiling this


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:07 pm 


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Gunbird 2 got back into the top 20. My work here is done.

I feel like I'm missing something about Darius Gaiden. I own it on Saturn, I like it fine, but it never blows my socks off in a "one of the 10 best of these things ever made" kind of way.

seiatsu wrote:
Most surprising is that GG Aleste 3 didn't make the cut at all...even as an honourable mention. Given all the chatter about it leading up to this, I thought it was definitely going to be in there somewhere (which I also thought a little strange given its newness.). IIRC it was mentioned all over the top 25 discussion thread amongst other places.


I thought at the very least, it would have made a showing if not a high position


As always..thanks for compiling this


Yeah I thought it was a shoo-in as well, I know Mark MSX gave it his GOTY, and I never saw an unfavourable review of it. It was certainly on my list. But it was a very late arrival, coming out on the 24th of December. Because of the pandemic folks who ordered it physically had to wait until the end of January or longer for it to arrive.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:52 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:50 am 



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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:24 am 


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As always, thanks for running this, Nifty!

Code:
19. Gunbird 2 (ARC/DC/SWI)

Birdgun Futari has returned to the top 25! The galaxy is at peace.
I'd Love to see it go higher (first place please), but it would probably need an M2 level port treatment to get much more traction than this.

Code:
20. RayForce / Layer Section / etc. (ARC/PS2/SAT/etc.)

Nope. Rayforce is getting done dirty and deserves to be higher, I wasn't aware it was slipping that fast. This used to be a stable top 10 pick, but in recent years it started falling off with this being the lowest placement for it in many years. I know this one has come and gone in the past, and I have no doubt that it can spring back, but unfortunately, it seems like these older arcade titles are starting to lose some relevancy without a recent enough quality port.

Code:
01. Ketsui ~Kizuna Jigoku Tachi~ (ARC/360/PS3/PS4)

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Code:
02. Battle Garegga (ARC/SAT/PS4/XB1)
03. DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou / Black Label (ARC/360/etc.)
04. Mushihimesama Futari / 1.5 / Black Label (ARC/360)
05. Ikaruga (ARC/DC/GC/360/PC/SWI)

Image

Zzzzzz

Code:
12. ZeroRanger (PC)

My gut tells me this placement is shockingly high, but I want to hold back until I've actually played the game. It's rare that modern shmups get a chance to crack the top 25 this deeply, so I'm definitely interested in putting some real time into this one some day.

Code:
21. Mars Matrix (ARC/DC)
24. Cho Ren Sha 68K (PC/X68)

It's good to see Mars Matrix holding on again after falling off a couple years ago. It's also really cool to see CRS68K finally grab a spot after so many years, I wasn't sure it would ever happen. This is a welcome addition.

Nifty wrote:
What Dropped from 2019's Top 25:
  • Eschatos (360/PC)
  • Thunder Dragon 2 (ARC)

What Dropped from 2019's Honourable Mentions:
  • Gun.Smoke (ARC)
  • Judgement Silversword (WSC/360/PC)
  • Out Zone

RIP gang, there's still hope for next year. TD2 falling is a real shame, and NMK is hilariously under represented in general. Most NMK stuff is quite obscure to the average shmup player, unfortunately.

DMC wrote:
Dangun Feveron 13th best shooter of all time feels wrong.

You're absolutely correct! It should be 2nd best! (and above Ketsui)



Image

Just wanna give a shout out to the few people who help pitch in votes for this masterpiece. I can't imagine this ever getting much traction since many people here dismiss golden age shmups entirely, but I have to mention it a bit for being the game that made me really reconsider that era. While there have been countless clones and spiritual successors, nothing has ever managed to touch the raw intensity and speed of Robotron, IMHO. I'm still constantly amazed by how forward thinking this game was with its enemy design and chaining mechanics for scoring. With the multiple modes people play like marathon, tournament, VKE (Vid Kidz Extreme), etc, there's multiple ways to play and compete. Robotron: 2084 is shooter insanity boiled down to its purest essence.
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:59 am 



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Thnx nifty love your work here

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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:54 am 



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Square_Air wrote:
donald.png

This is what the full results are for, so we can look at the HM scores and find out what the real top 25 is.
Square_Air wrote:
My gut tells me this placement is shockingly high, but I want to hold back until I've actually played the game. It's rare that modern shmups get a chance to crack the top 25 this deeply, so I'm definitely interested in putting some real time into this one some day.

It's funny to see it above most of its influences with only RSG ahead and not even by that much. It is too high IMO, but still a very neat game, something every genre fan should try.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:51 pm 


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I believe that the sudden appearance of two Darius games in the top 25 was due to the influence of Darius Cozmic Collections for Switch and PS4, since the younger voters were not very familiar with the bigger classics of these Taito's "Big Fish" series.

Two cool things on the list (and I totally agree) is that Darius Gaiden is the best game in Darius series and, on the side of Gradius, the V is also the best (some Konamists hate to hear this, but Gradius Gaiden is only deservedly the runner-up).

I can't understand how most prefer Mushihimesama Futari to the original, just as I don't understand the exaggerated exaltation of Battle Garegga, which is very good, but not worthy of second place in my understanding.

I had a regret: I didn't even put an honorable mention to Gekirindan, one of Taito's finest shmups. :|


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:49 pm 



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Square_Air wrote:
seems like these older arcade titles are starting to lose some relevancy without a recent enough quality port


As a first time shortlist voter and a recent addition to the shmup community, and as someone who has never been to an arcade, and would prefer not to use literally against the law criminal methods to play games, i can confirm.

There are still multiple games the the top 25 that i have no legitimate way of playing. I'm not going to buy a saturn or ps1, i'm not buying a japanese xbox, i'm not going to an arcade. There is no good reason for these games not to be on steam and modern platforms.

Batrider might be a great game, but i will never know. Can anyone tell me how to play this game without breaking laws?

If a game is inaccessible to your new voters, that game gets less votes, and that's kinda how it should be. It's a popularity contest at the end of the day, and stuff that stays hidden in a time capsule is going to be less and less popular as time passes.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:20 pm 


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seiatsu wrote:
Most surprising is that GG Aleste 3 didn't make the cut at all...even as an honourable mention. Given all the chatter about it leading up to this, I thought it was definitely going to be in there somewhere (which I also thought a little strange given its newness.). IIRC it was mentioned all over the top 25 discussion thread amongst other places.


I thought at the very least, it would have made a showing if not a high position


As always..thanks for compiling this


I figured GG Aleste 3 wasn't going to make T25, but I was surprised that it didn't even make the HM list as well. I had it on my list, but towards the bottom since I haven't had enough time to "deep dive" into it due to it's newness as you mentioned. I think the lack of highly weighted votes was what prevented it from cracking the HM list in the end.

I am a little bummed Batsugun dropped out of the T25 as I was hoping that it would hang on, but I did have a suspicion that it would fall off based off what I saw in the voting/discussion threads.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:22 pm 


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endali wrote:
There is no good reason for these games not to be on steam and modern platforms.

Not that I'm an industry expert, but I imagine in a lot of cases porting them over wouldn't likely be profitable; even companies with a bit of a hardcore following like M2 have to hedge their bets and spread them out to keep going (and this goes double for the likes of Steam, where unless you have an ample amount of day-one sales waiting in the wings you'll be completely buried under a heaping mound of fly-by-night shit in less than a week). Moreover, if you try to sweeten your odds via "quick and dirty" conversion you run the risk of ticking off the handful of diehards who even know what the game is, since they can recognize inaccurate slowdown and the like, and will complain about it; as nice as it would be to have good, "legit" versions of everything readily available to play (and I do understand your hesitance to try ports on older systems, since "retro" gaming is a lot more expensive than it was a decade or two ago), it just plain ain't happening, and the situation strikes me as largely beyond the control of those who might otherwise be making it happen.

Back on topic, I'm most impressed by Cho Ren Sha's out-of-nowhere ascension to the Top 25; it's been around (and free) forever, I'm surprised that it just suddenly decided to make an appearance after all these years.
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:41 pm 


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First, huge thanks to Nifty for doing this again.

Seeing Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1945 II return to the top 25 makes me happy, even though, like every year, I have to bemoan the lack of Shiki II. I would have loved to see GG Aleste 3 claim the spot it rightfully deserves (in my opinion), but I guess it was still too fresh. Maybe next year.

Sengoku Strider wrote:
I feel like I'm missing something about Darius Gaiden. I own it on Saturn, I like it fine, but it never blows my socks off in a "one of the 10 best of these things ever made" kind of way.

I'm in the same boat. Unlike earlier Dariuses, which I thought fairly run-of-the-mill except for the novelty factor, I can see that they really tried to improve a lot with Gaiden, and of course I like huge mechanical fish as much as the next guy, but nevertheless Darius Gaiden never really struck me as exceptional in any way.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:50 pm 



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Futari was robbed. All good games at the top though...

Glad to see Cho Ren Sha 68K in the Top 25. Last year was the first time I played it beyond a credit or two and I fell in love with it. One of the best shmups I've ever played. Music and enemy layouts are world class.

Also glad to see G-Darius in the Top 25. Absolutely slick presentation in that one. Its my favorite game in the series.

Sad to see Eschatos and Batsugun drop out of the Top 25.
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:30 pm 



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BulletMagnet wrote:
Not that I'm an industry expert, but I imagine in a lot of cases porting them over wouldn't likely be profitable; even companies with a bit of a hardcore following like M2 have to hedge their bets and spread them out to keep going (and this goes double for the likes of Steam, where unless you have an ample amount of day-one sales waiting in the wings you'll be completely buried under a heaping mound of fly-by-night shit in less than a week). Moreover, if you try to sweeten your odds via "quick and dirty" conversion you run the risk of ticking off the handful of diehards who even know what the game is, since they can recognize inaccurate slowdown and the like, and will complain about it; as nice as it would be to have good, "legit" versions of everything readily available to play (and I do understand your hesitance to try ports on older systems, since "retro" gaming is a lot more expensive than it was a decade or two ago), it just plain ain't happening, and the situation strikes me as largely beyond the control of those who might otherwise be making it happen.


Yeah i'm not an expert, and this is fine, but if these games are literally not even worth it to these companies to make them available to buy, then maybe they belong in the long forgetton times.

Hamster releases old obscure titles all the time and they're doing fine. Lots of companies and devs and publishers make money on titles and genres that have very small, very picky audiences. People spend ridiculous amounts of money to access classic shmups. These are high quality, timeless games, and if the IP owners can't sell these products, with the ridiculous amounts of money that people are willing to spend on video games right now, it's their own fault.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:05 pm 


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Thanks Nifty, I definitely need to check out Darius Gaiden, for some reason I never gave it a spin.

Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:15 pm 


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endali wrote:
Square_Air wrote:
seems like these older arcade titles are starting to lose some relevancy without a recent enough quality port


As a first time shortlist voter and a recent addition to the shmup community, and as someone who has never been to an arcade, and would prefer not to use literally against the law criminal methods to play games, i can confirm.

There are still multiple games the the top 25 that i have no legitimate way of playing. I'm not going to buy a saturn or ps1, i'm not buying a japanese xbox, i'm not going to an arcade. There is no good reason for these games not to be on steam and modern platforms.

Batrider might be a great game, but i will never know. Can anyone tell me how to play this game without breaking laws?

If a game is inaccessible to your new voters, that game gets less votes, and that's kinda how it should be. It's a popularity contest at the end of the day, and stuff that stays hidden in a time capsule is going to be less and less popular as time passes.


For the most part it's not too different to "it's on PS4 and I don't have a PS4". If you really want to play it legit, that's the platform you need - same with region locked 360 titles, games with Saturn/Dreamcast ports only. If you want it legit, you invest in the platform or you do without - while it's a shame to see titles fade into obscurity or not capture a wider audience, no-one can demand you must play anything if you don't have the means to either. But if there's not a reasonable way of playing the game legit on anything remotely modern you may as well ask yourself if it's ethically acceptable to head off to "technically illegal" means - no-one will mind if you still answer with no!

Yeah it'd be nice if titles got bundled up and shat out as a collection of ROMs in an emulator as a bare minimum.... but the hardcore audience often complain about it and the casual fan isn't interested anyway. So the effort quickly becomes more hassle than it's worth.

A lot of stuff is surfacing recently after spells in relative obscurity - Psikyo's catalogue has been released across Switch and PC (Steam), almost all the Darius games will soon be available on Switch and PS4, a tonne of mad shit has arrived via Hamster's Arcade Archives, even the Sega 8-bit Aleste games have recently been taken out of their box. Toaplan's back catalogue is slated for release soon, though hopefully more widespread than the distribution mess that has been some of M2's standalone releases.

You can't toss every single game out for a re-release with each new console, but there's definitely been a lot of movement recently in making forgotten games available again. Reasons to be cheerful!


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:38 pm 



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TransatlanticFoe wrote:
endali wrote:
Square_Air wrote:
seems like these older arcade titles are starting to lose some relevancy without a recent enough quality port


As a first time shortlist voter and a recent addition to the shmup community, and as someone who has never been to an arcade, and would prefer not to use literally against the law criminal methods to play games, i can confirm.

There are still multiple games the the top 25 that i have no legitimate way of playing. I'm not going to buy a saturn or ps1, i'm not buying a japanese xbox, i'm not going to an arcade. There is no good reason for these games not to be on steam and modern platforms.

Batrider might be a great game, but i will never know. Can anyone tell me how to play this game without breaking laws?

If a game is inaccessible to your new voters, that game gets less votes, and that's kinda how it should be. It's a popularity contest at the end of the day, and stuff that stays hidden in a time capsule is going to be less and less popular as time passes.


For the most part it's not too different to "it's on PS4 and I don't have a PS4". If you really want to play it legit, that's the platform you need - same with region locked 360 titles, games with Saturn/Dreamcast ports only. If you want it legit, you invest in the platform or you do without - while it's a shame to see titles fade into obscurity or not capture a wider audience, no-one can demand you must play anything if you don't have the means to either. But if there's not a reasonable way of playing the game legit on anything remotely modern you may as well ask yourself if it's ethically acceptable to head off to "technically illegal" means - no-one will mind if you still answer with no!

Yeah it'd be nice if titles got bundled up and shat out as a collection of ROMs in an emulator as a bare minimum.... but the hardcore audience often complain about it and the casual fan isn't interested anyway. So the effort quickly becomes more hassle than it's worth.

A lot of stuff is surfacing recently after spells in relative obscurity - Psikyo's catalogue has been released across Switch and PC (Steam), almost all the Darius games will soon be available on Switch and PS4, a tonne of mad shit has arrived via Hamster's Arcade Archives, even the Sega 8-bit Aleste games have recently been taken out of their box. Toaplan's back catalogue is slated for release soon, though hopefully more widespread than the distribution mess that has been some of M2's standalone releases.

You can't toss every single game out for a re-release with each new console, but there's definitely been a lot of movement recently in making forgotten games available again. Reasons to be cheerful!
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:48 am 


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cho ren sha was one of the calice games this year which i think is a big reason its on so many peoples minds. for example, i started playing it before calice but it definitely helped to have a lot of other interested people to chat and com[ete with.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:10 am 


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buggle wrote:
cho ren sha was one of the calice games this year which i think is a big reason its on so many peoples minds. for example, i started playing it before calice but it definitely helped to have a lot of other interested people to chat and com[ete with.


Sadly CRS downloads are no longer available on developer's current site. No idea why he pulled it off really.
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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:33 pm 



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I'm surprised there's no Gradius III, or any Parodius on these lists.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:53 am 


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copy-paster wrote:
oh my god G-DARIUS and CHO REN SHA have joined the gang!
Finally! Two of my favourites, I've been voting for both of them for years....

Lethe wrote:
ZeroRanger way up at #12.
I still haven't played this, so I don't have an opinion on this game yet. But for ZR to be #12 on this list is shocking to me. That's an incredible result!

DMC wrote:
Is there a cute em up resistance?
Yes.

DMC wrote:
Seems M2 have boosted Darius and Mahou Daisakusen, so bring us Brave Blade HD next! People don't like juggling bells or medals or what? They prefer to shoot enemies one at a time at a very constant pace?
Indeed, yes! :lol: Mahou is another of my favourites -- definitely my favourite Raizing game -- and one reason is there's not so much stuff on screen....

NMS wrote:
I'm happy to see Cho Ren Sha 68k in the top 25, and I wasn't expecting Kotsujin to reach the HMs but that's cool too.
I actually didn't realize CRS had never made the list before . . . for some reason I thought that it had. But Kotsujin on HM is a huge surprise -- maybe a bigger surprise than ZR at #12!

seiatsu wrote:
Most surprising is that GG Aleste 3 didn't make the cut at all...even as an honourable mention.
I didn't vote for it -- though I considered it strongly -- but I would have bet money it was going to make HM. Just too new I guess....

Square_Air wrote:
Nope. Rayforce is getting done dirty and deserves to be higher, I wasn't aware it was slipping that fast. This used to be a stable top 10 pick, but in recent years it started falling off with this being the lowest placement for it in many years. I know this one has come and gone in the past, and I have no doubt that it can spring back, but unfortunately, it seems like these older arcade titles are starting to lose some relevancy without a recent enough quality port.
I don't enjoy Rayforce as much as I used to, but your point about the older titles falling off is well taken. 1993's Rayforce is one of the oldest titles on the list, and while we've probably been in this place for a few years already and I just hadn't noticed, it's still surprising to me. 1987's R-Type is by far the oldest title -- the only one from the '80s. Man, over half of my list is from the '80s!

Square_Air wrote:
Just wanna give a shout out to the few people who help pitch in votes for this masterpiece [Robotron]. I can't imagine this ever getting much traction since many people here dismiss golden age shmups entirely, but I have to mention it a bit for being the game that made me really reconsider that era. While there have been countless clones and spiritual successors, nothing has ever managed to touch the raw intensity and speed of Robotron, IMHO. I'm still constantly amazed by how forward thinking this game was with its enemy design and chaining mechanics for scoring. With the multiple modes people play like marathon, tournament, VKE (Vid Kidz Extreme), etc, there's multiple ways to play and compete. Robotron: 2084 is shooter insanity boiled down to its purest essence.
This has always been a favourite of mine. It didn't make my list only because I consider it an overhead run'n'gun, and not a shmup. But there is nothing as feverishly immediate as Robotron. It's awesome.

Kobayashi wrote:
I had a regret: I didn't even put an honorable mention to Gekirindan, one of Taito's finest shmups.
Yes! I've always enjoyed this game, and I like it no less than the better-regarded Rayforce or Darius Gaiden.

Herr Schatten wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:
I feel like I'm missing something about Darius Gaiden. I own it on Saturn, I like it fine, but it never blows my socks off in a "one of the 10 best of these things ever made" kind of way.
I'm in the same boat. Unlike earlier Dariuses, which I thought fairly run-of-the-mill except for the novelty factor, I can see that they really tried to improve a lot with Gaiden, and of course I like huge mechanical fish as much as the next guy, but nevertheless Darius Gaiden never really struck me as exceptional in any way.
I've always liked the game, and I especially enjoy the music and also being able to play it with a friend. I consider it the first game in the series that is really good to play (with apologies to anybody who enjoys the older arcade and console titles). I like it about as much as Metal Black actually -- maybe a bit less, because I appreciate Metal Black's distinctive character. But for me, Darius series has always been about the extravagant G-Darius....

copy-paster wrote:
Sadly CRS downloads are no longer available on developer's current site. No idea why he pulled it off really.
Weird! It would be one thing if the entire site went down, but for the site to remain without the downloads . . . I don't understand.

psykom1 wrote:
I'm surprised there's no Gradius III, or any Parodius on these lists.
Well, G3 did make HM list. That's pretty good. But on Gradius, here's my gratuitous rant: What do you all see in Gradius Gaiden?? :lol: I don't enjoy Cave-style games, particularly, but I understand other people do, so whatever. (Though I do want to give Crimzon Clover a shot at some point....) However, I love side-scrollers, I love Konami -- and I love Gradius. The original game and G2 are both on my list this year, and I have been known to vote for both G3 (SNES) and G5. I even enjoy the monochrome Gameboy games (very much in fact)! But I had another go at Gaiden the other day, and it just feels flat to me. On PSX, I think Einhander, R-Type Delta and G-Darius are all greatly superior -- maybe Thunderforce 5 also. I don't know, it's inexplicable.... :lol:

Anyway, very interesting as always, thanks to all for their contributions -- and especially thanks to Nifty for pulling it all together.


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 Post subject: Re: 18th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Results
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:53 am 


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