Linear scoring system hate thread

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Do you hate linear scoring systems?

Yes
4
11%
Personally yes
2
6%
Maybe
2
6%
Personally no
2
6%
No
25
71%
 
Total votes: 35

christianbelchior
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Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

So I personally hate linear scoring systems not counting Touhou's systems for some reason... So I made this thread for talking about linear scoring systems and how they aren't a good idea to me. In general, I think Garegga is something I avoid a bit grinding scores because of the fact that its scoring system is linear. Progear, I'd not count that as a linear scoring system from the multipliers you get from every 10,000 jewel count. I'd consider it semi-exponential for this reason.

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Rastan78
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Rastan78 »

Maybe a better discussion would be what is an exponential scoring system? Good examples? Pros and cons?

If you hate linear scoring systems doesn't that mean you hate the scoring systems of the vast majority of arcade games ever produced? Even in a lot of games with chain systems and multipliers your score is getting multiplied by some factor, but it wouldn't necessarily be growing exponentially.
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Queen Charlene
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Queen Charlene »

honestly i don't prefer one or the other, myself. if anything, sometimes exponential games can be even more brutal to score because if you screw up even once, your score is dead, and then you're just restarting over and over again. at the very least with linear scoring systems, you never really feel too much like you're missing out on millions of points if you let a couple of enemies pass by you unharmed, and i think it rewards a slightly more "free-style" type of play. but in the end it really just depends on how the game itself handles its scoring based off of what it does with its level designs. i care a lot more about level layouts being fun than i do about the scoring being a particular kind of scoring.
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Sumez
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Sumez »

Rastan78 wrote: If you hate linear scoring systems doesn't that mean you hate the scoring systems of the vast majority of arcade games ever produced? Even in a lot of games with chain systems and multipliers your score is getting multiplied by some factor, but it wouldn't necessarily be growing exponentially.
Even if we aren't assuming 1x on Stage 1, 2x on Stage 2 and 4x on Stage 3, etc. I'd still think that qualifies as exponential. Or at least it's not linear.

I can get behind the idea that the further you get into a game, the faster you should rack up points, and I'd think that applies to probably a majority of shooters? If nothing else, the presence of more enemies or more bullets usually means scores start shooting up a lot faster.
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Rastan78
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Rastan78 »

A lot of games don't really have a progression of more points being available later in the game. They may have high scoring opportunities sort of randomly scattered throughout. More like peaks and valleys of available points. Then there are games where a massive chunk of your high score comes from end game bonuses. ie games where you could beat the last boss with 5 M and watch your score balloon to 12 M on just no miss bonuses, extra bomb stock etc. That doesn't exactly feel linear either.

Don't know how I would classify something like Ibara where 99 percent of the scoring tricks in the game will contribute like barely half of a WR score and the rest all comes from milking max value medals from only 2 bosses.
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ZPScissors
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by ZPScissors »

christianbelchior wrote:So I personally hate linear scoring systems not counting Touhou's systems for some reason...
>touhou scoring
>linear

Image

anyway for something that has more to do with this thread, there's nothing inherently wrong with linear scoring systems
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Jeneki
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Jeneki »

Isn't there an old Takumi joke something like "your score is a multiplier for your score"? :P

btw what's the difference between "yes" and "personally yes" in an opinion poll? Opinions are by definition personal.
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christianbelchior
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

ZPScissors wrote:
christianbelchior wrote:So I personally hate linear scoring systems not counting Touhou's systems for some reason...
>touhou scoring
>linear

Image

anyway for something that has more to do with this thread, there's nothing inherently wrong with linear scoring systems
Uh, yeah. Touhou 17 allows you to counterstop itself due to the scoring system. And Touhou's scoring systems are well-documented in the Touhou Wiki.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I don't understand why you'd hate all non-multiplier based scoring systems any more than I understand why people would simply decide that horizontal shmups are bad and never play them. It's not as if every single "linear" scoring system functions the exact same way; many that would be described as "linear" rely on scoring tricks such as Batsugun and Battle Garegga, whereas others such as Rapid Hero are much more truly linear in the sense that it's just a matter of continuing to collect point items throughout the game, and one mistake won't cause a massive score potential drop like a chain drop in a Dodonpachi game does.

Which scoring systems do you dislike, and why? Can you give examples of games, and why you dislike them? You've said you hate linear scoring systems but you've never even expressed why, thus making it difficult to have meaningful discussion at this point.

Progear under no circumstances is "linear". Its max bomb bonuses jack up the score alarmingly and truly high scores revolve around building that up quickly, so that your per-hit score bonus is maximized. One single bomb use or death at a bad time loses that and causes a massive drop in score potential. I wouldn't say it's a great scoring system as it's very all-or-nothing.
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maximo310
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by maximo310 »

Dunno how Garegga & Touhou are considered linear, unless there's more clarification as to what is "linear", what is "semi-exponential" and what is "exponential". I personally wouldn't put either two in the linear category due to how much stage point totals increase late game vs early game.

Stuff that's has relatively low scoring and similar point totals per stage ( a lot of arcade stuff up to the late 80s) would personally make a game fall under a linear scoring system in my mind. Those games r fun.
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Austin
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Austin »

Queen Charlene wrote:honestly i don't prefer one or the other, myself. if anything, sometimes exponential games can be even more brutal to score because if you screw up even once, your score is dead, and then you're just restarting over and over again. at the very least with linear scoring systems, you never really feel too much like you're missing out on millions of points if you let a couple of enemies pass by you unharmed, and i think it rewards a slightly more "free-style" type of play. but in the end it really just depends on how the game itself handles its scoring based off of what it does with its level designs. i care a lot more about level layouts being fun than i do about the scoring being a particular kind of scoring.
That is pretty much how I feel. I never put much thought into it until now, but in terms of scoring I know I generally don't last with games that require me to "do the thing" in order to score decently at all. It always results in restarting runs because of tiny mistakes. "Well. Missed that enemy. Run's dead." Scoring like that can be extremely satisfying when you pull off the difficult thing, and I do get enjoyment from the initial learning process for any intricate, exponential scoring system, but when it comes time to put my knowledge to practice, the negatives generally outweigh the positives for me and I ultimately don't have as much fun thanks to the tedious nature of it.
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Square_Air »

christianbelchior wrote:So I personally hate linear scoring systems
But why though?
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christianbelchior
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

Square_Air wrote:
christianbelchior wrote:So I personally hate linear scoring systems
But why though?
Because they cannot simply encourage me enough to grind larger scores.
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copy-paster
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by copy-paster »

One game I can think of have "linear" scoring system is Mahou Daisakusen. No real scoring tricks or stuff, just kill anything in sight.
christianbelchior
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

copy-paster wrote:One game I can think of have "linear" scoring system is Mahou Daisakusen. No real scoring tricks or stuff, just kill anything in sight.
Yeah. Even games with simple killing stuff as scoring (+optional tick points from taking away health from enemies) can be a target for me to hate them in terms of scoring.
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Despatche
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Despatche »

This is such a bizarre thread.
christianbelchior wrote:Uh, yeah. Touhou 17 allows you to counterstop itself due to the scoring system. And Touhou's scoring systems are well-documented in the Touhou Wiki.
They aren't actually documented all that well. There are some very basic factoids like the stage clear bonuses, but there is basically no information on how it all comes together, even very basic stage strategies, etc. The photo game pages have information on the different shots, I guess? But again, no information on things like what shots to look for during certain types of scenes, etc.
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christianbelchior
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

Jeneki wrote:Isn't there an old Takumi joke something like "your score is a multiplier for your score"? :P

btw what's the difference between "yes" and "personally yes" in an opinion poll? Opinions are by definition personal.
Sorry for a very, very late reply, but "personally yes" means that the opinion is more personal.
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LordHypnos
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by LordHypnos »

Jeneki wrote:Isn't there an old Takumi joke something like "your score is a multiplier for your score"? :P
This is very true. There are also two-levels of non-linearity (if that's a word) to them, because each medal you collect raises the value of the next medal (until you die, or in Mars Matrix, break your chain), and then that total value is a multiplier for your actual score.
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Solunas wrote:How to Takumi your scoring system
1) Create Scoring System
2) Make it a multiplier for your actual score
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

Bump because h
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LordHypnos
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by LordHypnos »

Omega Fighter is a surprisingly early example of a non-linear scoring system (1989), though tbf there's probably quite a few golden age games that would qualify. You get a varying multiplier based on your proximity to an enemy when you destroy that enemy (to a maximum of x10). You get the most common multiplier applied to your end-stage bonus. It also doesn't require button mashing / get unbalanced by autofire, because it already has it*.
Queen Charlene wrote:but in the end it really just depends on how the game itself handles its scoring based off of what it does with its level designs. i care a lot more about level layouts being fun than i do about the scoring being a particular kind of scoring.
I think I pretty much agree with this.


*I don't actually feel like this is strictly accurate. Tapping doesn't really do anything. Holding down the button just gives you a continuous laser. It's really closer to like the DDP laser than the shot, for example. Using an autofire circuit might actually give you a less consistent stream than just holding it down. As such, it still doesn't require any mashing, though.
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Solunas wrote:How to Takumi your scoring system
1) Create Scoring System
2) Make it a multiplier for your actual score
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

:?: About doujin shmups, Makkigan can (or does it?) count, since your score is incremented by the current counter (the 7-segment counter) you have every 4 frames, as I can tell from watchig a video.
While the counter increases lineary, the score increases more as the counter increases. Say,

Code: Select all

initial counter: 223
times score is added: 23 (92 frames)
score after 92 frames: 5129
counter increased by: 12 (1 per enemy killed)
current counter 235
times score is added again: 24 (96 frames)
score after 96 frames from 5129: 10799 (+5640)
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Shatterhand
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by Shatterhand »

No.

Actually need to go with BareKnuckleRoo and Austin here and even go a little further on this discussion.

I remember Qute main guy, M-Kai, once saying in an interview something along the lines "Every modern shmup is trying to be Cave. Why? There are so many different things you can do with shmups other than rack up multipliers and dodge huge patterns of slow moving bullets"

I personally don't like too much of scoring systems where a single mistake just completely fucks up your score... like those games where you can fully chain a level (or the WHOLE FRIGGING GAME like Guwange).... and while I love Cave games like anybody else, most of the time I hate their score systems because of this, and I usually ending up not caring about score when playing their games for most of the time (Which screws me up when going for extends, but oh well).

I also understand the need to have a scoring system that goes beyond "The further you go, the better your score", so a good balance needs to be found. But honestly, I have zero problems with a simple score system.. I kill an enemy, I get 100 points, bosses give me 10000 points, that's all. I am all for it. It was great when I used to play the first Raiden or Truxton, it was great on Gradius Gaiden and Gradius 5, and it's still great today.

As I also like older toaplan shmups, or I *LOVE* Star Force and other even older shmups where scoring isn't that complicated (Yeah, I'll ignore the Cleopatra Bonus on Star Force, that was stupid) and level design is more about enemy patterns than bullet patterns, or horizontal shmups, or shmups that are more about fast aimed bullets than slow and complicated bullet patterns... fuck, is someone ever going to give me another Gradius Gaiden, another Zanac Neo or another Rayforce ?

I just love the genre overall, and I think there's a lot more that it can be done with it than pretty looking bullet patterns and exponential score systems. It has been done before, and it should be done now too.

-

But yeah, no problem with linear scoring system. As long the game is no Terra Cresta 3D which doesn't even have a score (WTF?) and it has good level design, I can easily live with a simple score system. I mean, Strikers 1945 2 is a masterpiece and the scoresystem is just.. "Grab the golden bars when they're flashing", and it's great for me. And I'll also have lots of fun with the crazyness that's Raizing scores system too, and I've even tried my hand on the rigidness of Dodonpachi chaining system and had some fun with it. There's room for everything.
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christianbelchior
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Re: Linear scoring system hate thread

Post by christianbelchior »

Shatterhand wrote:No.

Actually need to go with BareKnuckleRoo and Austin here and even go a little further on this discussion.

I remember Qute main guy, M-Kai, once saying in an interview something along the lines "Every modern shmup is trying to be Cave. Why? There are so many different things you can do with shmups other than rack up multipliers and dodge huge patterns of slow moving bullets"

I personally don't like too much of scoring systems where a single mistake just completely fucks up your score... like those games where you can fully chain a level (or the WHOLE FRIGGING GAME like Guwange).... and while I love Cave games like anybody else, most of the time I hate their score systems because of this, and I usually ending up not caring about score when playing their games for most of the time (Which screws me up when going for extends, but oh well).

I also understand the need to have a scoring system that goes beyond "The further you go, the better your score", so a good balance needs to be found. But honestly, I have zero problems with a simple score system.. I kill an enemy, I get 100 points, bosses give me 10000 points, that's all. I am all for it. It was great when I used to play the first Raiden or Truxton, it was great on Gradius Gaiden and Gradius 5, and it's still great today.

As I also like older toaplan shmups, or I *LOVE* Star Force and other even older shmups where scoring isn't that complicated (Yeah, I'll ignore the Cleopatra Bonus on Star Force, that was stupid) and level design is more about enemy patterns than bullet patterns, or horizontal shmups, or shmups that are more about fast aimed bullets than slow and complicated bullet patterns... fuck, is someone ever going to give me another Gradius Gaiden, another Zanac Neo or another Rayforce ?

I just love the genre overall, and I think there's a lot more that it can be done with it than pretty looking bullet patterns and exponential score systems. It has been done before, and it should be done now too.

-

But yeah, no problem with linear scoring system. As long the game is no Terra Cresta 3D which doesn't even have a score (WTF?) and it has good level design, I can easily live with a simple score system. I mean, Strikers 1945 2 is a masterpiece and the scoresystem is just.. "Grab the golden bars when they're flashing", and it's great for me. And I'll also have lots of fun with the crazyness that's Raizing scores system too, and I've even tried my hand on the rigidness of Dodonpachi chaining system and had some fun with it. There's room for everything.
Moreover, I can also easily live with a simple item-based scoring system, like Yagawa medals.
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