Second loops in the arcades??? How?

[SPM]

I was wondering... back in the 90s (or before), did people have a way to practice tough sections like psikyo's second loops? I can't imagine people getting a 2-all if they had to start from the very beginning each time.
Did they have some sort of save state or stage select I didn't know about? Or just lots and LOTS of time and money spent in the arcades?

In the 90's I would only play some credits each time for fun and never did I really make any substancial progress. The best I can think of would be stage 3 or 4 at most, and that in my go-to's.

[el_rika]

They aren't called super players for nothing

[SPM]

They aren't called super players for nothing

Touché

Crazy though!

[trap15]

How: credit feeding, study, and communication.

[_rm_]

How: credit feeding, study, and communication.

Without internet, which makes it even more impressive.

[EmperorIng]

I can't imagine people getting a 2-all if they had to start from the very beginning each time.

They didn't. A lot of players credit fed to learn tough sections, and re-learn them over and over again until they got further each time. It appears as if they didn't treat each 'run' as 'the run,' with one mistake being game-over.

I'm sure some did, but then they didn't get past stage 4 most the time

Also, trap points out that watching someone else who is good (or has memorized) a tough spot at the arcade is like the equivalent of getting bodied today in MAME and looking up a (non-WorldofLongplays) video to see how someone else did it.

[Sumez]

I'm not good enough to 2-all any shooters that I can think of, but every 1CC I've gotten I've reached by credit feed practicing, and playing legit on arcade cabs. I'm one of those stupid dinosaurs who could never get accustomed to emulation and whatever benefits that may come with... I don't really think it's that bad of a handicap, even though I don't doubt that savestate practice can be a massive help.
In "recent years" while YouTube has been a thing, that's also been a great help for studying strategies of better players.

Without internet, which makes it even more impressive.

On the other hand, they had a community actually playing the games

[MathU]

Loops are a lame money-grubbing system, always have been. Every now and then a really cool game like Image Fight came with the option to start on the second loop via DIP switch setting

[egg_sanwich]

Neo Geo also had the memory card which allows you to start most games at the stage you left off.

[Rastan78]

It's amazing what can be accomplished with lots of practice over time. Especially thoughtful and focused practice.

The excitement of collaboration and competition are also bonuses to playing in an arcade scene. I would trade save states for that any day.

When it comes to learning anything there's a huge difference between watching someone live and in person and watching a video of them.

[Lethe]

There's also a fundamental difference between watching someone play and watching The Run. In the absence of a true scene, the culture of the western playerbase has developed a distorted preoccupation with The Run. In theory, consistency doesn't mean anything because it's only a stepping stone to The Run - which isn't at all like playing in a populated arcade environment where time is at a premium, and is a totally disconnected attitude from directly competitive games where consistency is the most important thing.

The popularity of streaming and events (especially competitive ones) can only be a step in the right direction. It's much closer to the reality of playing together than scrabbling for superplay material and trying to imitate it.

[Rastan78]

Good points regarding focusing too much on a perfect run too soon.

I watched a video recently by SFV player, Punk, where he breaks down his perceived differences between the Japanese and US scenes. He said Asian players focus on playing to learn and are highly collaborative, whereas Americans play for clout. Americans will focus on getting one win over a well known player as a badge of honor rather than look at the matches as an opportunity to learn, figure things out, experiment.

I think that focus on playing to learn is a good attitude to have in shmups as well. Honestly it's just more fun bc you can come away from each play with a little something gained. If "The Run" is all that matters then 99.9 percent of the time you're frustrated.

[To Far Away Times]

That's really interesting. Most of the time I start playing normally, then move on to save states when I don't want to see old levels anymore. But its definitely all about "The Run." If its recorded (which I am bad about) that's even better.

Now, I enjoy dissecting levels and focused practicing things on tight loops (hello R-Type), but its all done in service of that one ultimate run, and once I get my 1CC I am done.

My R-Type 1 and 2 replays are 100% memorized start to finish, and I followed the exact same route every time with no deviation. But that was also part of the fun of it.

I'll go back to a few of my favorites now and then that don't require much memorization (Futari, Space Invaders Extreme) but I mostly chase 1CC's.

[SPM]

Interesting answers

Gathering together and trying to get that good at the game on the actual arcades must feel good
Having to credit-feed to reach the point you want to practice not so much though

Save states are great but I don't look forward to them that much. A good training mode feels more fun and organic to me.

[scrilla4rella]

This is a really interesting thread. I don't have much to add as I just consider myself a middle-tier player. Once I get the 1CC I usually move on. There's just so many great arcade shooters from the nineties and beyond to dig into.

The less I focus on 'the run' the more I seem to learn. I also think experimentation or regular phases of 'play' runs is important. It allows one to take more risks and discover new things- pushing one's luck with exploiting different facets of the game play (point blanking and so on...)
The main problem I have is when I'm chillin' and want to mess around with some shooters while drinking a couple of beers or shōchū. It usually ends up being pretty unproductive in terms of practice, but still fun.

[Ddshot]

There’s so much more than a 1cc,even if I get the 1cc I normally continue playing,then go for high scores some shmups have secrets like battle garrega,then there’s the routing!1cc let’s you know your ready to go deeper


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scrilla4rella]

Battle Garegga is my favorite shmup of all time. I love how playing for a high score and survival is basically the same thing.

[GaijinPunch]

The guy that was on the Mushihime-sama Futari DVD and cleared Ultra said he credit fed to figure it all out, and that he spent about 150,000 yen in the first month, to put it into perspective. Pretty sure it was a 50 yen game center to boot. Not a 2nd loop, but the general idea applies.

[wiNteR]

Reference link:
http://shmuplations.com/scorer5/

[SPM]

Reference link:
http://shmuplations.com/scorer5/

Thanks! That was an interesting read

The guy that was on the Mushihime-sama Futari DVD and cleared Ultra said he credit fed to figure it all out, and that he spent about 150,000 yen in the first month, to put it into perspective. Pretty sure it was a 50 yen game center to boot. Not a 2nd loop, but the general idea applies.

Wonder what his opinion is about the price of M2's ports: basically a steal!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I can't imagine people getting a 2-all if they had to start from the very beginning each time.

It's totally doable. The thing is, you don't play a new game with the mentality of immediately going for the 2-All right off the bat; you tackle it in stages. Learning to clear the first loop with enough resources and doing so reliably so you can trigger the second loop, and from there learning the second loop. By the time you're working on the the second loop, you'll likely be clearing the first loop consistently and easily so it's just a matter of patience each time to get to loop 2.

While a lot of Cave and Psikyo games have brutal second loops that are radically different in how they play, there's plenty of other games that have second loops which are similar enough to the first loop that it's not a huge adjustment. Raiga Strato Fighter for instance has more enemies in the second loop, but doesn't play too radically different aside from a brand new level at the end. Even Cave's own Donpachi has a very similar loop, with the main difference being enemies fire revenge bullets; other than that enemy appearances are the same.

I'm not good enough to 2-all any shooters that I can think of

You've gotten 2-Alls of other arcade games though!

[zlk]

I played in the arcades before mame or even the internet was around. As people said earlier, friends would hang out in the arcades and share information. There were magazines that posted high scores and occasionally you could call the editors up and ask them questions about how to do certain sections or how a score was possible. There were unfortunately a number of games I never 1cc'd because it would take 45 minutes or more to get to a certain section and then I would just die there. There were no cameras to film the section and eventually you got sick of having to play that long to just die without having a good idea of what to do. Mame and youtube make things significantly easier than way back then.

The good old days had an advantage in that you would hang out in the arcades and play with your friends in person. There were also many people playing, so you could get to see a decent level of play in a game live even if you didn't care to put in enough time to get good at it. It seemed always that at least one of my friends could finish whatever new arcade game arrived in the arcade and it was entertaining to watch them play live.

[Leandro]

Only game I did 2-all was the Mega Drive port of V-Five. There I remember I could select stages to practice, if not for that I don't think I could have endured. I like the genre but not that much, lol.

That's amazing to know that some people spent thousands of dollars in the arcade to master a game.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

It'd take real quarters, some time to figure out out the route through a certain stage & lots of trial 'n' error to master such arcade STG titles indeed back in the 1980s. Then it'd be a matter of rote memorization to do such a 1CC or "getting into the zone". This was achieved/accomplished without any help or advice from anyone. The interesting thing considering I was spending real money, it'd force me to do my best when playing/learning new sections of an arcade game title. I couldn't afford to screw up even if I wanted to with such arcade game titles.

I'd do a Romstar version of Hyper Dyne Sidearms run of getting to the final boss of Bozon on my first life but it'd reqiure a second quarter to finish it off -- average scores would in the 1,500,000+ points range easily with about 35 minutes of gameplay per session.

It was easy to do a 1LC (1 life clear) with Data East's Heavy Barrel arcade game with an average of 1,400,000+ points per session (and assembling the Heavy Barrel weapon for the final time to bring down the final end boss with his mechanized monstrousity with plenty of reserve power left on the on-screen HB weapon gauge). It'd take roughly about 30 to 35 minutes per HB session easily using the provided Data East or SNK LS-30 based rotary joystick setup.

Sure, I'd get on the Fabtek released Viper Phase 1 USA high score list back in 1995-1996 at one local arcade hangout, The Electric Underground, & it'd cost four nickels per credit to do so. Those were the days of the "Silver Age of Arcades".

The second loop of Data East's Vapor Trail is quite hard as the enemy bullets move faster than your own fightercraft does -- just insane trying to weave through that bullet storm. Same thing applies to American Sammy's version of Daioh arcade pcb (the only arcade STG title with 6-button support per player from the get-go) with the second loop run.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~