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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:29 pm 


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Triple Lei wrote:
Also I am just now discovering the Switch button mapping and savable presets feature. :shock: Especially useful in my case since I lose quite a few buttons with the Saturn-style pad. But I really need to make a button map chart for each game. Should make Vasara considerably more playable.


I didn't even think about that. Vasara Collection's inability to remap buttons almost guarantees I waste a couple of Vasara attacks on the first stage trying to remember which button is melee.

leodash wrote:
I have small thumbs. When I use PS3/PS4 controllers, I couldn't hit the diagonals properly on the D-pad. I searched online for some tips and everyone say, "Just practice". Still struggling after months playing on them.

Bought Logitech F310 and that's when I realized how good it is to use a D-pad that fit my thumb.


I have been playing PlayStations since September '95. I have never thought that dpad design was a good one. It's perfectly serviceable, but I've never had good results from it in fighting games etc.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:23 pm 



Joined: 25 Jan 2021
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PS1 controller. The original model without analogs.

I only really play 2D games anyway (mainly 8~16bit stuff), so the analogs aren't missed.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:01 pm 


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It looks like Hori has redesigned the fighting commander. Right now it's for Xbox X/S. They do have a habit of eventually bringing their controllers across to other platforms. I'm curious to see how the new design plays out.

The most interesting things are a completely new d pad, microswitches under the buttons instead of a rubber membrane, and a new short throw analogue stick with an 8 way gate. The stick looks intriguing. Reminds me of the Neo Geo CD and Neo Geo Pocket controllers which are really good ones. I actually like the fluid feeling of playing with a thumbstick. It's just the large amount of travel and the lack of a square or octagonal gate that are really inappropriate for 8 way 2D games with requiring quick accurate inputs. In theory it's possible something like this could play really well with shmups.

Sort of frustrating thats there's no Switch or PS version so far.

https://stores.horiusa.com/fighting-com ... -xbox-one/

Edit: After looking at the pics, the anologue stick looks more like a normal one and less like a Neo CD controller. Unless the travel distance is way less than a normal analogue it will likely still be ass for 2D games.

I think one good test for any control method is if you can dash quickly and easily in a fighting game (double tap left or right). This also means you could easily do microtap style movements in a shmup as well. This is an area where analogue sticks always fail. Maybe partly bc your thumb is just better at quickly tapping up and down (as in pressing a button or D pad) than wiggling side to side. Keyboards and D pads this should be no problem. Sticks, it depends. Any good stick like a Seimitsu LS 32 it will be almost as easy to dash as on a d pad with practice. One of the main factors will be how quick the stick returns to neutral. You're just lightly tapping and letting the stick do the work to come back to neutral on its own.

Another good test is to load up a shmup and see if you can wiggle left and right or up and down without getting an errant diagonal movement. Also booting up a game like NES Contra and shooting left and right while running back and forth is a good way to test this. For some reason a lot of controllers this generation from 8bitdo to Nintendo's own pro controller have really screwed up in this particular area.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:29 am 


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I didn't know about the RetroBit Sega Saturn pad before this thread. Just ordered one. I absolutely love my PS2 Sega Saturn pads. It's my all-time favorite controller.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:54 am 


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I didn't even think about using my PS1 and PS2 dual shock controllers on Switch and I've had a USB adapter this entire. More options is a win.

Sorry I cited NES and SNES polling incorrectly. They poll every frame so 60 Hz NTSC. Once per second would be unplayable. Browsing online, typical USB polling is 125 Hz and the newer Switch Pro controllers poll at 500 Hz. The 500 Hz reduces polling time from worst case 16.66 ms to 2.00 ms even if the OS + emulation overhead costs more. *Hardcore people even overclocking controller polling rate.

bigbadboaz wrote:
Don't conflate the 8bitdo and Retro-Bit Sega controllers; two different brands and different things. RB has actually issued replicas of Sega's pads while the 8bitdo m30 is their own take on Sega's designs. If you're familiar with the classic controllers you might want to buy that specific version.


Thanks, I am dumb enough to conflate 8bitdo and RetroBit. Now that I know to check, easy to identify RetroBit with official SEGA branding and I like official merch.


el3m wrote:
To minimize input lag you can use both of them wired with both PC and Switch.


May as well...

I ordered:
-Mayflash Magic NS
-USB-C Male to USB 3.0 Adapter for Switch
-Retro-Bit Official Sega Saturn USB Controller Pad (Model 2)

Not messing around. Can use with XBox 360 wireless controller with Mayflash and adapter chain for PS1 and PS2 controllers to Switch. Again, I appreciate all the help!


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:40 am 



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BrianC wrote:
I don't agree it's unusable, but I don't plan to go back now that I have the split pad pro. Much better ergonomics and d-pad. Poor ergonomics is also an issue with the stock joycons.

The stock joycons are bit better for me since using the analog stick is more easy to my hands than struggling to press the d-pad and triggers for example (I play 4 button shmups like ESPRade with two face buttons and triggers on both sides). I should try out the split pad pro, it would be better with other games as well.
Rastan78 wrote:
Sort of frustrating thats there's no Switch or PS version so far.

You probably can use this with the Mayflash Magic-NS adapter FWIW - definitely interesting controller
bigbadboaz wrote:
More importantly, 8bitdo's Bluetooth is significantly laggier than their 2.4 version - pretty typical - while RB's Bluetooth has tested incredibly fast vs. the slower 2.4 (somewhat inexplicable).

I agree on these findings, I find the 8bitdo m30 bt to be laggy and I always use it wired. The RB bluetooth seems great.

I just got myself a Brook Wingman XB adapter to use these pads with Xbox Series X. It seems to work great, 8bitdo m30 and retrobit saturn pad both work wired and wireless, tested those with Guwange. (the m30 was bit laggy here as well, no issues wired, rb good both wired/wireless)


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:15 pm 


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I stick to my Series X controller for my PC titles. I jump between the Switch pro pad since it's similar and 8BitDo's nifty, MUCH improved new joystick.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:02 pm 


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MathU wrote:
Keyboard when possible, Wii Classic Controller Pro with a Mayflash adapter whenever an incompetent doujin game with garbage default keys and no way to reconfigure forces me off of keyboard.

What adapter are you using?
I tend to play keyboard as well but for some games I switch to a Wii Classic Controller Pro with this adapter, also made by Mayflash :
Spoiler: show
Image

It works fine for the most part but has two issues that make it unsuitable for serious play on specific games :
-The adapter will sometimes send some inputs even if you were not actually pressing the buttons in question. I've experienced those ghost inputs with Up, L and R. The latter two can be worked around by not assigning anything to those buttons (I prefer ZR and ZL by a large margin anyways) but unwanted Up inputs at the worst moment are annoying.
-The adapter can rapidly lose and re-recognize the input for a held button multiple times in a row, which results in it being considered as being repeatedly tapped instead of held, even if you hwere actually holding the button the whole time. I basically can't play emulated Illvelo with the Classic Controller Pro (even though that's what I use on console runs) because of this issue, as the adapter can just randomly nuke my run if it wants to

If you are using this adapter, have you encountered those issues? I don't recall having those problems on console so I don't think it's my controller that's acting up.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:00 pm 


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I've never experienced any of those problems with my adapter, either on Windows XP where I used to play most of my doujin shooters or in native Linux games and over Wine. I'm using the Mayflash adapter whose plastic hub is shaped like a small classic controller though; that may be a newer version than yours where they worked out some of the problems. The only issues I've had are that sometimes the D-pad hat-type switching mechanism doesn't work at first without unplugging stuff and plugging it all back in (was only a problem on WinXP), and there's some directional biases on my main analog stick. I never noticed the latter until switching to Linux and I'm unsure if it's due to the adapter drivers or if it's actually how the controllers themselves are made, but it's basically resolved with controller calibration software.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:22 pm 


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Thanks for the answer!
Yeah my adapter shape is different, I imagine yours must be this one based on the description :
Spoiler: show
Image

Having to unplug and replug the controller is also a thing in the one I have but it's not a big issue. I may have to look into getting the same model as yours and see if that solves my input-related problems then!
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:15 pm 


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NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
I ordered:
-Mayflash Magic NS
-USB-C Male to USB 3.0 Adapter for Switch
-Retro-Bit Official Sega Saturn USB Controller Pad (Model 2)

Not messing around. Can use with XBox 360 wireless controller with Mayflash and adapter chain for PS1 and PS2 controllers to Switch. Again, I appreciate all the help!


In case it helps, I just finished putting together an input lag test comparing the Mayflash Magic NS and Brook Wingman NS adapters - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68000

Since we are talking about controller setups for the Switch I figured it has some relevance to this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:29 am 


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Sorry if this is a silly question, but do you guys have some sort of stand you’re using if you want to play non-tated games via the USB-C to 3.0 dongle? I imagine it would cause extra bulk and not let the Switch sit flat on the table.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:49 am 


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Special World wrote:
Sorry if this is a silly question, but do you guys have some sort of stand you’re using if you want to play non-tated games via the USB-C to 3.0 dongle? I imagine it would cause extra bulk and not let the Switch sit flat on the table.


I use the hori stand for the switch.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:04 am 


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I love, love, love Saturn/Genesis pads.

I'm also currently on the Retro-bit Genesis and 8bitdo M30 train. They both feel incredible. I even bought a Brooks adapter to use my wired Genesis pad with my Xbox360.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:59 pm 


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I'm mainly a keyboard user but for consoles, I use PS2 pads. Shmups with analog control support works best with PS2 analog stick, I cleared tough games like Gradius V and Gradius IV with it.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 4:32 pm 


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The 8BitDo M30 is serving me really well for the more classic style games. Went through Infinos Gaiden with this one a few times and it's really fun to play with. Thunder Force 4 just feels so classic on it, but that's obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:13 pm 



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That's the thing with Genesis/Saturn games... you can't use a modern controller to approximate the six button layout.

A Playstation pad is pretty close in its layout to a SNES pad, but you really need a seperate dedicated controller for Sega games.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:59 pm 


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I find Genesis/Saturn games control even better with an SNES + double shoulder buttons layout than the original Genesis/Saturn controllers, because that face button layout was always a dumb inefficient usage of your fingers. Now N64 games... Those can be a real challenge to play with something other than an N64 controller.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:07 am 


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MathU wrote:
I find Genesis/Saturn games control even better with an SNES + double shoulder buttons layout than the original Genesis/Saturn controllers, because that face button layout was always a dumb inefficient usage of your fingers.


I totally agree with this. When I play Thunder Force IV I map weapon switch to the R button rather than having it on a face button like it would be on original Genesis layout. This means you can rapidly cycle weapons without having to take you thumb off of shot. It's much faster that way.

It's kind of funny that the whole idea for the six buttons on the face layout was to accommodate SF2 on the Genesis. It's just not a good layout for fighting games. The problem is this layout only really works well on arcade controls where you can tap buttons with multiple fingers. Trying to rapidly get around to all 6 buttons with just your thumb is not so great. Most top level fighting game players that play on pad use a standard PS controller with multiple shoulder buttons rather than a 6 button "fight pad."


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:43 am 



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Personal preference. I completely disagree.

For me and others, the positioning of the fingers on a shoulder button will never be as comfortable as the way the thumb sits right above the face buttons. It doesn't matter that you have to shift the thumb around, I will still ALWAYS have better results pressing face buttons with my thumb where fast action is required. I'd never choose shoulder buttons for anything beyond auxiliary functions.

The Dpad on a Nintendo controller is also so vastly inferior for smooth, flowing motion vs. Sega's famous design that I'd never step away from the Sega controller for anything action even if the button layout wasn't an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:04 am 


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So how would you do rapid option switching on a game like Battle Garegga without having option switch on R? Stop shooting every time you change formation?


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:30 am 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
The Dpad on a Nintendo controller is also so vastly inferior for smooth, flowing motion vs. Sega's famous design that I'd never step away from the Sega controller for anything action even if the button layout wasn't an issue.


100% this. Even playing 2D Mario games feels so much better with a Genesis pad. The only exception is for stuff that doesn't require diagonal outputs like Tetris or SRPGs like Advance Wars and Final Fantasy Tactics. Otherwise the Sega D-pad for me is almost always better than a rigid crosshair where you're trying to mash two parts of the SNES pad to get one diagonal output. It's just not a great design.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:40 am 


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I wanted to give an update on my purchases:

-Mayflash Magic NS
-USB-C Male to USB 3.0 Adapter for Switch
-Retro-Bit Official Sega Saturn USB Controller Pad (Model 2)

Mayflash arrived at v1.31 and I updated to v1.32. Also came with its own UCB-C to USB 1/2/3 adapter that I somehow overlooked. Could return the other adapter but may as well keep for future proofing.

I didn't know this but you can use wired controller on Switch when not docked with USB-C adapter so that's cool. Saturn USB worked as is on Switch and PC without Mayflash. Doesn't work with Mayflash on Switch anyway. I really like the D-pad. The 6 face + 2 shoulder + start buttons cover everything except activating save states on Switch. Is kind of a big deal since Switch doesn't allow me to remap the buttons.

I also got an Astro City Mini and paid extra for the controller with nice matching color scheme. I don't like the D-pad quite as much as Retro-Bit Saturn but is good enough and has 6 concave buttons + credit and start. The Astro City Mini controller works as is on PC but not on Switch with or without the Mayflash. Mayflash does work on ACM USB but you have to set the LED to white before plugging in. Test of Virtua Fighter 2 player with Switch Pro or Saturn controller alongside ACM controller worked fine.

Real SNES and PS2 USB adapter chaining didn't work on Switch or ACM with or without Mayflash so that was a letdown.

I'm debating returning the Magic NS because its only use is for the ACM. I could pull out the Xbox 360 controller and buy PS3 controller and high quality joystick to breathe new life into it though.

I need to make a spreadsheet matrix to keep track of compatibility across my devices. So dumb but here we are.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:35 pm 


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BloodHawk wrote:
Similar to a couple others, one of the controllers I use for Switch is the Retro-Bit Saturn (Bluetooth version). Using it via bluetooth with the Switch is supposedly one of the lowest input lag options out there, so when I am trying to get a true feel for how much a particular game has input lag I will use that. Also, when plugged into the PC via USB it can use X-Input which is compatible with almost every game today.
Thank you for this detail. You made me re-visit this option and found that they've released the white version I was previously holding out for. My PC is in a white case with a Sega sticker on the front, so...


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:42 pm 



Joined: 30 Jan 2021
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Yoshi wrote:
BloodHawk wrote:
Similar to a couple others, one of the controllers I use for Switch is the Retro-Bit Saturn (Bluetooth version). Using it via bluetooth with the Switch is supposedly one of the lowest input lag options out there, so when I am trying to get a true feel for how much a particular game has input lag I will use that. Also, when plugged into the PC via USB it can use X-Input which is compatible with almost every game today.
Thank you for this detail. You made me re-visit this option and found that they've released the white version I was previously holding out for. My PC is in a white case with a Sega sticker on the front, so...


I’m using the skeleton version of the retrobit Saturn pad and I’m loving it. Took a few days to relax my left hand while using the controller but I can play for hours now and it’s comfortable. Performance is great and I’m trying to get a second one now. I don’t see the white shell version on the website though.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:07 am 



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For 'standard' layout games, right now I'm using a SN30 Pro (not the Pro+) and a Hori RAP4 Kai depending on what I'm playing. The SN30 Pro doesn't have analog L2/R2, making it perfect for games that don't need the analog (and in fact are hurt by it, like my usual Gradius 5 button layout, though I do have to note that analog *stick* for Gradius 5 doesn't hurt you at all and in fact helps since it's real analog movement. That's pretty rare in games, though.)

The Hori RAP4 Kai goes through a low-latency Brook PS3/PS4 to Switch adapter and a PS3/PS4 to Xbox adapter as needed for those platforms.

For six face button games, I use an older Street Fighter 4 fightpad that maps directly for Genesis and Saturn or the arcade stick.

That combination covers just about anything I need.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:13 am 


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I use the Hori Pokken Tournament controller. May start using the Hori PC-Engine controller they made for the mini, but the Pokken Tournament controller is pretty great for all my needs personally. The dpad may be too tight for some.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:16 pm 


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Hot take, I love N64 controllers for MAME. It started out as a necessity thing because in 2013 the only thing I had for PC was a Mayflash N64 adapter and nearly half a dozen N64 controllers. Over time I just came to love the d-pad, 6 face buttons, and the general shape of the controller since I have long ass noodly octopus fingers. I can see why other people might find the more rigid d-pad uncomfortable to use, but I like the response it gives me. It certainly helps that it's a design I grew up with, but I've managed to get all of my arcade achievements with it so far, and I have no real intention of switching to anything else.

The other gamepad I use is the more standard Logitech F310 for Touhou and certain steam games, and while I think this one is pretty good, I'm not crazy about it. I use it more out of convenience since it's Xinput or DirectInput by the flick of a switch.
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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:53 pm 


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Square_Air wrote:
The other gamepad I use is the more standard Logitech F310 for Touhou and certain steam games, and while I think this one is pretty good, I'm not crazy about it. I use it more out of convenience since it's Xinput or DirectInput by the flick of a switch.


The PS4 version of the Fighting Commander also has this feature, though only because it has PS4, PS3, and PC modes.


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 Post subject: Re: What gamepad are you using for PC and Switch shmups?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:05 pm 



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ShamefurDispray wrote:
bigbadboaz wrote:
The Dpad on a Nintendo controller is also so vastly inferior for smooth, flowing motion vs. Sega's famous design that I'd never step away from the Sega controller for anything action even if the button layout wasn't an issue.


100% this. Even playing 2D Mario games feels so much better with a Genesis pad. The only exception is for stuff that doesn't require diagonal outputs like Tetris or SRPGs like Advance Wars and Final Fantasy Tactics. Otherwise the Sega D-pad for me is almost always better than a rigid crosshair where you're trying to mash two parts of the SNES pad to get one diagonal output. It's just not a great design.


Oh, geez, no. Genesis pads (and many Saturn pads) always gave me unwanted diagonals. This is one of those per-person preference points, but I'd prefer a crisp response to a mushy one any day.


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