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 Post subject: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:01 am 


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I know I can't be the only person who's noticed it before, but since everyone now touts the Switch like it's the second coming of christ for shmups, how do people deal with the noticeable input lag many of the games seem to have in portable mode? I haven't messed around much with playing on TVs through the dock, since the Switch's output signal is so ugly and usually full of artifacting and is in really low resolution, among other issues.

Even with the JoyCons plugged right into the console, most of the shmups I play end up feeling really unresponsive and sluggish, leading to a lot of nonsense misses, on top of having a horrendous "d-pad" and the analogs being inaccurate junk that usually end up drifting as well. We won't even begin to talk about when the JoyCons are detached (which sucks, since the FlipGrip is such a great idea in theory)

Is it just bad coding for many of the games, or a hardware fault?

Again, this is only for the original Switch model, not the Lite, and this is a serious question. Do many people just not notice it? Or do you just overlook it? Do you possibly plug in a USB controller with an adapter instead? (initial results with this are quite good, besides the cord getting in the way) Any suggestions are welcome. Thankfully not too many shmups are actually exclusive to Switch, but for the few I do want to play, I usually just quit pretty fast due to the input lag.

Noteable things I specifically noticed just in the last few days were:

Psikyo games
Arcade Archives games
Namco Museum
Quad Fighter K

I imagine there are more games out there that suffer this that I'm forgetting or don't own, but these are just the ones I happened to test lately. Some other games like Danmaku Unlimited and Rolling Gunner seem to operate much more smoothly and have far less noticeable input lag, but I'm curious if anyone else has gotten this same feeling.
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Last edited by MachineAres 1CC on Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:57 am 


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Many people don't notice it whatsoever. I only notice it, slightly, if I compare it to other platforms directly (PC), which isn't usually the case. I guess I've adapted to it. 90% of my shmupping time (or gaming in general) is on the Switch, handheld/flipgrip mode, using the little joystick and loving every second of it :D

I just don't play on PC/TV that much anymore, and don't enjoy playing on my phone because of the lack of physical buttons. So the Switch is the way. (In fact, I will only get a PS5 if there's a good way of playing it handheld somehow haha)

Btw, that "not-so-well-manufactured" mini joystick (that I've repaired 3 times already :x ) is the ONLY analog stick I like for shmups! The small travel makes it "digital-like". Can't stand playing on PC with a big ass analog stick. In that case I use a d-pad.

On another note, it's true that the joycon "d-pad" is the worst input method I can imagine for shmups, but I like it for Mario Maker hardest levels and other precision platformers like Celeste or The End is Nigh.

Also, I've played the shit out of Tengai and Strikers II on Switch, and what bothers me the most is the lack of features on those ports, not the lag. (but I've noticed it when I've practiced some spots on MAME).

It's not the best console it could be, at all, but is the only one that gives me what I want these days ;)
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:07 am 


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Also, check out this video :D

"Nintendo SWITCH Shmups - LAG TESTED!" by Shmup Junkie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3GKfvu ... hmupJunkie
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:21 am 


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SPM wrote:
Also, check out this video :D

"Nintendo SWITCH Shmups - LAG TESTED!" by Shmup Junkie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3GKfvu ... hmupJunkie

This guy is annoying as all hell (don't know if this is you, lol) but I guess that confirms some pretty inherent lag on a lot of these games on Switch, which is pretty awful when you're used to stuff like shmups on CRT, other handheld systems, or PS4/PC/360 on good, low response rate monitors. He also didn't test what seems to be the best method to me so far, which is the wired USB controller in handheld mode.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:31 am 



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The switch has some shitty ports, but steam does too. Shitty ports are not exclusive to any platform. The big boys work fine - crimzon clover, rolling gunner, esprade, du3 - and the portability makes it worth it. The crimzon clover port is the best version of the game. Du3 runs better on switch than my potato pc.

If you are into shmups, you're not gonna be platform exclusive. You play whatever the games are on, and let's be honest, the switch is a lot cheaper than some of the stuff you guys buy, and it runs some really good games really well. Yeah the psikyo ports are shit. Play gunbird on a different platform.

Joycons are shit too. Use a different control method, like you would on any other platform.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:53 am 


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MachineAres 1CC wrote:
I haven't messed around much with playing on TVs through the dock, since the Switch's output signal is so ugly and usually full of artifacting and is in really low resolution, among other issues.


Uuuuuh watchoo been smokin bro? And can I get some?Switch outputs clean 1080p in docked via hdmi.

That shmup junkie video is great. He takes the time to do the testing instead of talking out of his ass.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:37 am 



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The Psikyo ports kinda suck and are a bit laggy. That's the only time I've noticed lag.

I don't notice any more lag on the switch LCD screen than I do on any other non-CRT monitor.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:08 am 



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Switch has something like 1-2 frames more input lag on average than PS4, which is something I can live with if the game / port doesn't have bad lag in the first place (just don't use controller, which adds too much extra). So in shmups, it's usually in the 4-5 range for the best ones (ALL M2 stuff, Crimzon Clover, Ikaruga, Rolling Gunner etc.)

The input lag in Hamster's Arcade Archives is generally pretty good, about 5 frames in average if I remember correctly, but there are some titles where it feels to be more, like X-Multiply.

The lag in Psikyo ports have been tested quite a bit and yeah, it's not great because it varies between 6-8 frames depending on game. But even at that, I think those are playable, especially those where it's around 6 frames (and I have played the original pcb's in our local Arcade)

It also depends on the game how annoying or harmful extra input lag is. In some games where you have quite fast ship speed and fast bullets coming at you, it can be quite difficult to control your ship/character accurately enough in tough spots.

I don't really play with joycons ever anymore. I use Hori Split pad pro when playing handheld and when docked, I use hori switch hayabusa V arcade stick or 8bitdo bluetooth M30 / Retrobit's saturn 2,4Ghz. I have a TV, which doesn't add that much input lag (something 8-10ms in game mode). I do have flip grip too, but I don't use it because I would need to use joycons that makes my hands hurt really fast.

IMO Switch is great, even with the slightly worse input lag than PS4. If I have choice between getting a shmup for PS4 or Switch, I often go with PS4 though, especially if it's vertical shmup and I know the game has around 3 frames of input lag on PS4 compared 5 on Switch. With recent M2's Aleste Collection, I did select the Switch version, because all the GG titles there works great on handheld mode (it's not too tiny) and it seemed there wasn't much, if any difference on input lag (it was really low on Switch too). If it's horizontal shmup, I tend to prefer for the handheld experience option.

ps. Shmup Junkie is great, one of the best shmup content creators out there.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:25 am 


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I only have played ESP Ra.De and Aleste Collection enough to comment, but I couldn't notice any significant lag in either of them. I prefer playing in docked mode, generally, though. For handheld mode I bought a replacement left joycon with a proper d-pad. For docked mode I use my trusty Hori digital controller for Gamecube via an adapter. Works beautifully.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:28 am 


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GFoyle wrote:
The input lag in Hamster's Arcade Archives is generally pretty good, about 5 frames in average if I remember correctly, but there are some titles where it feels to be more, like X-Multiply.


I think this is a thing with the arcade version as well - I'm sure I ready something on here pretty recently?

Yeah the Psikyo ports lag a touch, but I've never noticed the AA titles performing any differently that they do on PS4, and I've double-dipped on quite a few. I've got Gradius and Salamander on PS4, Switch and Xbox, and if I threw you into any of those versions with a generic controller, I severely doubt you'd be able to tell any difference.

I've not played much of the Namco collection extensively, but of the two games I really enjoy - Galaga 88 and Rolling Thunder - again, they feel no different that the versions I've previously owned. Esprade runs just fine.

The joy-cons suck, I've got the hori pads if I need to play undocked (not very often at the minute), and the 8bitdo SN30 for docked. I was using the retro-bit Saturn pad, which is excellent, but currently waiting for an issue with the d-pad snapping to be sorted.

Not sure what the issue with it TV output here, some of this stuff seems to be nitpicking in the extreme IMO.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:32 am 


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Rastan78 wrote:
Uuuuuh watchoo been smokin bro? And can I get some?Switch outputs clean 1080p in docked via hdmi.

Nope, it's technically 1080p output, but not native 1080p for many games. The 1080p is most often upscaled from 720p, which is it's native output resolution, and when you output it to a 4K monitor, then it's getting upscaled 4x more and looks quite atrocious.

endali wrote:
If you are into shmups, you're not gonna be platform exclusive. You play whatever the games are on, and let's be honest, the switch is a lot cheaper than some of the stuff you guys buy, and it runs some really good games really well. Yeah the psikyo ports are shit. Play gunbird on a different platform.

Joycons are shit too. Use a different control method, like you would on any other platform.

Obviously they're not generally platform exclusive, though very little actually is on Switch, outside of Nintendo's first party games. Switch is possibly my least-used console of all time, and I've owned all the major ones in history. It's just kind of a backup/portable solution for certain things and for playing an actual exclusive title maybe once every year or two, but if it doesn't even run a lot of the stuff I want to use it as a portable for in a satisfactory way, it doesn't really meet that purpose.

Quote:
ps. Shmup Junkie is great, one of the best shmup content creators out there.

This is inherently part of the problem. Being a "content creator" in today's world just tends to mean you put on an extremely irritating and fake personality to film your videos, and these phony personalities just make me cringe so hard that it's usually hard to get through any of their videos.

Quote:
some of this stuff seems to be nitpicking in the extreme IMO

It's not nitpicking when it noticeably diminishes your ability to play the game as it's intended. Shmups are not too far off from rhythm games when it comes to this, where the timing being off even by 2 or 3 frames can be a game-killer unless you're just trying to credit-feed through everything.

Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks the JoyCons are some of the worst official controllers ever.
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Last edited by MachineAres 1CC on Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:34 am 



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Quote:
ps. Shmup Junkie is great, one of the best shmup content creators out there.

MachineAres 1CC wrote:
This is inherently part of the problem. Being a "content creator" in today's world just tends to mean you put on an extremely irritating and fake personality to film your videos, and these phony personalities just make me cringe so hard that it's usually hard to get through any of their videos.


That's frankly a really negative perspective on things. Shmup Junkie seems to be really nice guy even outside the videos and I'm sure there is a lot of his personality and genuine enthusiasm in his videos, it's not just a role. I like that he adds some humor to the videos, even knowing it's not for everyone. He is definitely a guy who really loves this games and tries stay positive, which is great, there is way too much negative attitude and bs out there.

Also, not sure where did you get the information that Switch native resolution when docked would be 720p and it just upscales it to 1080p, which sounds false and when I tried to find some confirmation for such claim, I couldn't, at least not with a quick search. From all I understand, it depends on the game what will be the resolution and is there some upscaling happening.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:08 pm 


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MachineAres 1CC wrote:
It's not nitpicking when it noticeably diminishes your ability to play the game as it's intended. Shmups are not too far off from rhythm games when it comes to this, where the timing being off even by 2 or 3 frames can be a game-killer unless you're just trying to credit-feed through everything.

Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks the JoyCons are some of the worst official controllers ever.


That's kind of my point, very, very few of us will have the cash, space and time investment to play these games 'as intended'.
The Psikyo ports are shoddy, yes, but I sill contend that dropped into a blind session, 99% of this board would have no idea whether they were playing the Xbox/PS4/Switch version of Gradius, Salamander, In The hunt.....

And I've pretty sure I've read numerous Digital Foundry articles on Switch games outputting full HD, not 720.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:23 pm 


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Oops, removed double post


Last edited by Rastan78 on Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:35 pm 


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MachineAres 1CC wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:
Uuuuuh watchoo been smokin bro? And can I get some?Switch outputs clean 1080p in docked via hdmi.

Nope, it's technically 1080p output, but not native. The 1080p is upscaled from 720p, which is it's native output resolution, and when you output it to a 4K monitor, then it's getting upscaled 4x more and looks quite atrocious0


Nope. There are tons of games that output native 1080p docked. Going with a lower resolution scaled up to 1080p is up to the dev just like it is on any other modern console. Just doing the most basic research would bear this out. Check out a knowledgeable source like Digital Foundry if you want to learn more.

Check out the online leaderboards on some Switch games. The community of players that have uploaded scores puts our shmups forum community to shame. Pretty much any M2 port (which all have low latency BTW) will have near WR scores all the way down thru the top 6 or 8 players. In some cases done by the same player who holds the record on the arcade version. Good luck breaking into the top 10 on any route in Darius Gaiden.

OMG how can anyone possibly deal with lag tho!?

Also the argument that Nintendo is only good for 1st party stuff has become outdated IMO.

MachineAres 1CC wrote:
This is inherently part of the problem. Being a "content creator" in today's world just tends to mean you put on an extremely irritating and fake personality to film your videos, and these phony personalities just make me cringe so hard that it's usually hard to get through any of their videos.


GFoyle wrote:
That's frankly a really negative perspective on things. Shmup Junkie seems to be really nice guy even outside the videos and I'm sure there is a lot of his personality and genuine enthusiasm in his videos, it's not just a role. I like that he adds some humor to the videos, even knowing it's not for everyone. He is definitely a guy who really loves this games and tries stay positive, which is great, there is way too much negative attitude and bs out there.


Well said. Another thing I like about shmup junkie is he comes from a perspective of someone who has a lot of background and knowledge in the genre. There's a lot of stuff out there on YouTube that just comes from a super casual level where you won't find much good info. Yet he also isn't super hard core into scoring or nitpicking about input lag. So he comes from this middle ground where there's something there for a wide range of viewers. And he really does seem to have a genuine love for the games.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:44 pm 


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I like shmup junkie, he has a lot of enthusiasm for the genre.

That said, his thumbnails fall into the category of what me and my friends call "incredulous reviewer face syndrome", where the thumbnails are always the reviewer gasping at something in apparent disbelief, or yelling, or photoshopped onto another character's body and yelling, etc. Very akin to the nostalgia critic, which is of course the poster child for these kinds of thumbnails
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:55 pm 


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I should have kept my NES and SNES.
All those modern things have more latency.
It is not made for SHMUPS and 2D in general i say.
Is it worse then raspberry pi with retro pie ?, cant be.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:27 pm 


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heli wrote:
I should have kept my NES and SNES.
All those modern things have more latency.
It is not made for SHMUPS and 2D in general i say.
Is it worse then raspberry pi with retro pie ?, cant be.


Original hardware is always great. I used to only play on original arcade PCBs to a CRT. Best latency and best representation of 2D pixel art you can have. Always a great way to go if you can afford it and have the space and time to invest towards the hobby. But there are tradeoffs there too other than just the high cost.

Aside from all the clutter of collecting arcade games and equipment they're much more difficult to set up and swap out. Once you have a jamma setup for one game with your monitor screen size dialed in, appropriate button layout, autofire, extra 6 button harness and stereo sound jack if applicable, changing games out can require tweaking all this stuff. To get the most out of your PCBs you really almost need multiple cabs set up.

A console port can give a lot of advantages like save states, leaderboards, replay saving, pause to go pee etc. There are honestly games where the port adds so much even if I had the PCB it might not get played as much.

Also look at fighting games. Is owning an original SF Third Strike CPS3 system worth it, with all the fussiness of setting that up, once you are removed from an arcade setting where other players are going to join you? Sure if you have a local scene, but most people are on another format such as console or fightcade. So you're gonna get more fun out of finding an active scene than playing alone on original hardware.

Also think about cabs with special setups like Darius. Anyone who wants to try and get an original cab or buy 3 arcade CRTs just to set it up, more power to you. Even if you do have 3 CRTs (Platinum dev Hideki Kamiya actually did this! Lol) you can't really replicate the seemless screens without inverting one monitor and bouncing the image off of a mirror. Okay realistically? I'll go ahead and enjoy Darius on the excellent Cozmic port and live with a few milliseconds of extra lag. If you see the YouTube channel of world record holder KZS, he plays Darius in the arcade, on Arcade Archives and Cozmic Collection. IIRC his highest scores are on console.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:30 pm 



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MachineAres 1CC wrote:
Even with the JoyCons plugged right into the console, most of the shmups I play end up feeling really unresponsive and sluggish, leading to a lot of nonsense misses, on top of having a horrendous "d-pad" and the analogs being inaccurate junk that usually end up drifting as well. We won't even begin to talk about when the JoyCons are detached (which sucks, since the FlipGrip is such a great idea in theory)


I wonder how much of this is you battling the Joycons? Looking at your 1CC list there are games there like Pink Sweets, DDP SaiDaiOuJou, Gigawing DC that are known to have 4-5 frames lag, but were you just using a better controller with those?

Whilst the Joycons are supposedly responsive, they're definitely not a good controller for a shmup.

I've been using an M30 2.4G and the Arcade Archives releases play fine to me (mostly the Gradius games). That's not to say there is zero lag. I actually did test switching from Retroarch with run-ahead to the Switch versions and for the first few seconds it felt quite bad, but wihin a minute I had got used to it. Whilst low lag is important, I'm not convinced my ability is really affected by 2 frames versus 4-5 frames. if you start going higher than that things might be different.

Also, I play these games like Gradius and Salamander regularly at my local retro arcade (or at least I did before the pandemic forced it to close!) and I'm not convinced the PCBs are as low as you can go with Retroarch tweaks.

I haven't tried the Psikyo games, I know people say they are quite bad!


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:54 pm 


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Rastan78 wrote:
MachineAres 1CC wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:
Uuuuuh watchoo been smokin bro? And can I get some?Switch outputs clean 1080p in docked via hdmi.

Nope, it's technically 1080p output, but not native. The 1080p is upscaled from 720p, which is it's native output resolution, and when you output it to a 4K monitor, then it's getting upscaled 4x more and looks quite atrocious0


Nope. There are tons of games that output native 1080p docked. Going with a lower resolution scaled up to 1080p is up to the dev just like it is on any other modern console. Just doing the most basic research would bear this out. Check out a knowledgeable source like Digital Foundry if you want to learn more.

Yes, I didn't clarify as much as I should've in the original comment. The native output of every game highly depends on the developer's ability to optimize the game for the Switch's relatively limited hardware, and the norm for most modern 3D games is 720p native to get them to run anywhere near 30fps. Or, they often end up using highly variable refresh rates and resolutions, which makes for even crazier and more inconsistent experiences overall.

Since we're mostly discussing ports of old arcade games or 2D shooters, it's hard to say where these lines all fall (and DF won't be testing shmups ports anytime soon) but it is possible that some of these do run at 1080p. As far as which ones, that's anyone's guess, unless someone here has the hardware to accurately test them.

heli wrote:
I should have kept my NES and SNES.
All those modern things have more latency.
It is not made for SHMUPS and 2D in general i say.
Is it worse then raspberry pi with retro pie ?, cant be.

I still have all my old consoles and CRTs, but obviously many games can't be played there, so I try to have good modern solutions for each newer console as well, but Switch presents the most roadblocks in general of any modern console so far.

As far as the Raspberry Pi thing, it's also a loaded question. It can depend what emulator you're running on there and what kind of input you have as well. It's technically possible to run ShmupMAME on a Pi if you did the work for it, which would lead to some pretty awesome results if also using a very responsive input method. However, just using some old crappy MAME builds in RetroArch won't really get you the best results.

StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote:
I wonder how much of this is you battling the Joycons? Looking at your 1CC list there are games there like Pink Sweets, DDP SaiDaiOuJou, Gigawing DC that are known to have 4-5 frames lag, but were you just using a better controller with those?

Whilst the Joycons are supposedly responsive, they're definitely not a good controller for a shmup.

This is mostly what I've been getting at this whole thread. I have good wired arcade sticks for most consoles, which tend to offer much better experiences across the board, but with the hybrid nature of the Switch, it leads to tons of issues from all sides. Also, if one of the biggest selling points of the Switch is supposed to be it's portability, but the games you want to play can't be played very well with the portable hardware that's provided (JoyCons) then it's a bit of a failure in that department. I don't want to carry around extra adapters and controllers just to be able to play shmups with relatively comfortable and accurate controls on the go. The Game Boy, Game Gear, GBA, DS, PSP, and Vita all did this well, but Switch is definitely behind every other portable solution in this department.

Quote:
I've been using an M30 2.4G and the Arcade Archives releases play fine to me (mostly the Gradius games). That's not to say there is zero lag.

Again, this probably varies a lot between different games, it seems, and there's a lot of Arcade Archives games, but the few that I bought way back when they first started getting ported to Switch had embarrassing amounts of lag with the JoyCons, so I kinda stopped buying them after that. The only ones I bought were Omega Fighter and Terra Cresta, IIRC, and that was enough for me to not buy anymore, but I imagine some of them are much better ports/conversions that run much better, but I'm not willing to take that chance anymore.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:07 pm 


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MachineAres 1CC wrote:
He also didn't test what seems to be the best method to me so far, which is the wired USB controller in handheld mode.


The Switch doesn't have a USB port in handheld mode.

heli wrote:
I should have kept my NES and SNES.
All those modern things have more latency.
It is not made for SHMUPS and 2D in general i say.


You can always go back. I did, picking up a Super Famicom and a Sega Saturn this year. The hardware's not expensive at all. Some of the top shmups are pricey, but there are really good ones which aren't: Area 88 (UN Squadron) & Gradius III on SFC cost less than $20 loose. I got Darius Gaiden & Layer Section complete for about $40 on Saturn. Stuff like Dodonpachi, Strikers 1945, Soukyugurentai, Gunbird or Axelay can be had complete for around the equivalent price of a new modern game if you shop in the right places.

StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote:
I wonder how much of this is you battling the Joycons? Looking at your 1CC list there are games there like Pink Sweets, DDP SaiDaiOuJou, Gigawing DC that are known to have 4-5 frames lag, but were you just using a better controller with those?

I haven't tried the Psikyo games, I know people say they are quite bad!


People are exaggerating. Gunbird 2 on Switch came out at 6 frames, which while hardly ideal is only one frame more than the 5 you've astutely noted above as not uncommon. But the Psikyo games were also updated not so long ago, and while I haven't seen anyone do a re-test since then, anecdotally they do feel a little better. Until I see a formal measurement I'll concede that could be placebo effect though.

That all being said, I do hope that the rumoured new Switch coming this year deals with this issue better. It's not the end of the world, but there's no good reason for it either. It's already got one of the best shmup libraries on a console ever, maybe the best, I'd want to see it run as well as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm 


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I can't say much about the display topic as I am not familiar enough with the internal workings of the Switch.

However, when it comes to the input lag I do see the OP's reason for asking the question.

The Switch is great and I am happy with it overall, but the input lag varies game by game, anywhere from:

Good - The PC/PS4 port (if available) is most likely a frame or two better, but it's still very enjoyable and doesn't hinder my fun at all.
Mediocre - Can definitely notice that the input lag is there, but I can push through it.
Awful - I find it unplayable and uninstalled.

I have not taken the time to setup a controlled environment to test out and measure the input lag of each game, but here are my feelings on the shmups I currently have on Switch based off my time with them:

Rolling Gunner: Good
Crimzon Clover: Good
Danmaku Unlimited 3: Good
Thunder Force AC & IV: Good
Caladrius Blaze: Good
Darius Cozmic: Good - Except for the SNES/SFC games which are mediocre (most likely the specific emulator M2 chose for them, not anything to do with the Switch itself)
Blazing Star: Mediocre
Game Tengoku Cruisin: Mediocre
Sisters Royal: Mediocre
Psyvariar: Mediocre
Psikyo Collections: Varies by game, most are Mediocre and playable though (Strikers 1 just feels way more laggy than Strikers III, etc)
Steredenn: Awful
Vasara Collection: Awful

I think the OP's point is that for shmups on the Switch, other ports (if available) almost always have less input lag (even the ones I listed above as "Good"). If you don't utilize the portability feature of the Switch that much, then that puts a big dent in the armor of Switch being the "Shmup King". This doesn't mean you can't perform well and have fun on the Switch ports (as high scores have indicated), but it's something to consider when choosing which port to get when you have a Switch, PS4, and a decent PC.


Last edited by BloodHawk on Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:41 pm 


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Sengoku Strider wrote:
The Switch doesn't have a USB port in handheld mode.

I'm using a USB-C to USB-A adapter that plugs right into the bottom of the Switch.
Image

Quote:
It's already got one of the best shmup libraries on a console ever, maybe the best, I'd want to see it run as well as possible.

The Xbox 360 and PS4 would like a word with you. Not to mention things like Famicom, PC Engine, etc.

BloodHawk wrote:
I think the OP's point is that for shmups on the Switch, other ports (if available) almost always have less input lag (even the ones I listed above as "Good"). If you don't utilize the portability feature of the Switch that much, then that puts a big dent in the armor of Switch being the "Shmup King". This doesn't mean you can't perform well and have fun on the Switch ports (as high scores have indicated), but it's something to consider when choosing which port to get when you have a Switch, PS4, and a decent PC.

This is a pretty great summary of everything we've discussed here, and what I was trying to get across (besides seeing if anyone had any decent solutions to minimize the lag, otherwise.) This is why I generally just tend to stick with PS4 or PC ports of shmups nowadays over the Switch versions, since portability isn't a huge thing for me at this point, and so few of them are actually exclusive to Switch.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:12 pm 


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The Switch Online NES and SNES games have a low amount of lag. In the case of the Psyiko games, some of them had a fairly high amount of lag to begin with (though most of the recent ports have other issues). Ikaruga has a similar amount of low lag on all platforms. Switch does have native 1080p on some games, but the menus are definitely 720p native. As far as controllers go, I found the M2 2.4g MD Mini pad, the Hori RAP, and the hori fighting commander to be among the better ones.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:17 pm 



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Herr Schatten wrote:
I only have played ESP Ra.De and Aleste Collection enough to comment, but I couldn't notice any significant lag in either of them. I prefer playing in docked mode, generally, though. For handheld mode I bought a replacement left joycon with a proper d-pad. For docked mode I use my trusty Hori digital controller for Gamecube via an adapter. Works beautifully.


What did you buy for your left joycon? Curious, since I haven't found a perfect option yet.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:02 pm 



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Ares, how do you like that Switch HoriPad with the crazy D-pad?


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:55 pm 


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bigbadboaz wrote:
Ares, how do you like that Switch HoriPad with the crazy D-pad?

It's certainly a hell of a lot better d-pad than the JoyCons or Switch Pro Controller, that's for sure. It does sit really high up, which some people like and some don't (many Dreamcast controllers had high d-pads as well.) The face buttons on the Hori could be a bit more comfortable, as they aren't microswitched or anything and are a little hard to press for long periods, but still infinitely better than the crampy JoyCons. The whole controller is also light as a feather, which may be your thing or it might not.

This direct USB input method into the tablet part of the Switch itself seems to be the best input lag option I've found so far, too, so that's nice, though I haven't used one of those non-wireless JoyCon replacements with the better d-pads on them either.
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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:08 am 



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SPM wrote:
Also, check out this video :D

"Nintendo SWITCH Shmups - LAG TESTED!" by Shmup Junkie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3GKfvu ... hmupJunkie
I'm with shmup junkie
No real issues for me

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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:33 am 



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Posts: 50
I think that this is largely a non-issue. It's probably more that the joycons themselves don't work for you. Which I get. They are miserable to use for 2D games.

I tend to think that I'm fairly sensitive to lag. I could tell quickly that something was wrong with say the Mega Man X Legacy Collection (I hear that the PS4 version is awful too) and Vasara Collection. However, some shmups I own and play on both PS4 and Switch and think that they compare pretty favorably. Esp Rade Psi I've played back to back to see if I could tell a difference, using a Brooks Universal on the PS4 and the Hori HRAP on the Switch. I already knew that the Switch version was 1 to 2 frames laggier, so that may have clouded my perception. I thought I could maybe tell a slight difference, but it wasn't great if at all. Aleste I can't tell. Psyvariar, which someone above said it pretty laggy, I have on both machines and can't tell a difference at all. I love that game too. Crimzon Clover I have on PC and Switch and it feels the same to me.

It sounds like there are some games that do have notable worse performance but those aren't the general rule. Like the Strikers collection, which I haven't played or Vasara, which I can attest to. Someone above also mentioned Blazing Star and I used to have an AES copy of it and didn't find the ACA version on Switch to be laggy. That game was always a bit slow. Then again, I haven't played the original Neo Geo version in quite a few years.

I think that while there are some measurable differences in some cases, generally speaking in practice the additional lag on Switch is a non-factor given how small the differences often are.


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 Post subject: Re: How do people play with Nintendo Switch input lag?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:36 am 



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Posts: 116
MachineAres 1CC wrote:
It's certainly a hell of a lot better d-pad than the JoyCons or Switch Pro Controller, that's for sure.

Aww, I thought the Pro Controller d-pad was pretty good. I like it a lot better than the Pro Controller analog stick or anything on the Joycons.

The appeal of the Switch to me is being able to play it on a whim. I purchased a controller converter and never used it. I couldn't be bothered.


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