M2 Toaplan collection

[ZPScissors]

not having spent hugely significant time on any of these toaplan releases, I'm struggling. significantly harder than something like tatsujin oh, but I'm also using the switch joycons instead of my stick and playing it on my big screen tv instead of a good monitor.
I'm still in love with them and with a week trip/some upcoming flights I'll be getting some practice runs/much needed mileage in, but yeeeesh

seems I'll have to touch on the stgweeklys too

Sam3 1p and Tatsujin Oh are overall about the same difficulty to clear, but Sam3 definitely has the harder early game, it's hard from the start but Tatsujin Oh doesn't really get to that level until the Stage 4 boss.

[BrianC]

Do the menu descriptions mention any differences for Flying Shark and Sky Shark?

I used a translator for the descriptions. If I read correctly, they are mostly the same, but the high score screen has initials in Sky Shark and names in Flying Shark and Hishozame. Interesting that Sky Shark retains the Romstar copyright.

[Skykid]

Switch 1P Same! does have slowdown in handheld mode! It's not a little, either; the entire game runs in slow motion! I was at the coin laundry doing laundry just now, so I brought my Switch, and I was like "why the fuck is everything so slow? Oh shit, there's the slowdown!". It's really bad. I didn't turn the gadgets off because my laundry finished, but it's definitely there for sure. I recorded some of it with the internal capture, as well. Not sure how it will look at only 30 FPS, but I do have some footage of it.

...and now that I'm at home and can turn up the volume, the music in 1P Same! is completely broken in handheld mode, as well. What the hell happened, M2?.

I didn’t experience anything like this on Switch. Then again, when in handheld I needed to take a specific set of handheld screen grabs and opted for wallpaper for that rather than the M2 Gadgets. Not sure if they would make a difference (they really shouldn’t!) but otherwise both games ran smoothly from what I could tell. I certainly didn’t notice anything like you’re describing.

[BrianC]

I haven't seen the slowdown in samex3, but I only had the odd sound issues with gadgets on in Hishozame. Before that, I was actually playing AC Sky Shark more, which doesn't have gadgets. I wish more of the PS4 achievements were centered around the 2p version of Samex3. It's so much more fun to play than the brutal original.

[Steven]

A couple of things:

1. Have you updated your Switch recently? Generally it's been good but one of the big updates recently caused my Switch to occasionally not read cards unless I restarted it. It's not been an issue since the most recent update, so perhaps worth checking you're up to date?

2. Do you do a full shutdown or use sleep mode, and close software after exiting it? I never trust sleep modes to work properly and 90% of the time "when did you last reboot your laptop?" leads to very sheepish end users at work, whose software issues always disappear after they've been told not to leave it in sleep mode for weeks

I've not had anything like this with the game, which doesn't rule out software bugs but it's either very specific to trigger or environmental. Sleep modes and/or other open software using resources sounds possible... I guess the other thing is handheld mode, how long were you playing for? Wonder if it's overheated and throttled CPU to compensate.

Yeah, I'm on the newest firmware. I've actually been shutting the thing off recently over the past few days to pull out the SD card to transfer screenshots of my scores and stuff to my PC, as well, so it's been fully shut down quite frequently lately. I don't really pay attention to how often I close the software, but I'd say maybe 50% of the time.

I wasn't playing it for very long, though, just 1 minute and ~40 seconds in and the slowdown looks like this: https://youtu.be/EElUBCS6bXo

although it was like this from the very start.

Now I don't know how useful that video is at showing how slowly everything is moving, but at least you'll definitely notice the super broken music for sure, and the slow speed might be a little more obvious when the item carrier shoots at me near the end.

Do the menu descriptions mention any differences for Flying Shark and Sky Shark?

I used a translator for the descriptions. If I read correctly, they are mostly the same, but the high score screen has initials in Sky Shark and names in Flying Shark and Hishozame. Interesting that Sky Shark retains the Romstar copyright.

Yeah, that's right. Interesting the Perikles list has Flying Shark and Sky Shark one position lower than Hishouzame, but I don't know why. I haven't spent much time with the international versions, especially since they seem mostly the same but they don't save replays and scores.

I didn’t experience anything like this on Switch. Then again, when in handheld I needed to take a specific set of handheld screen grabs and opted for wallpaper for that rather than the M2 Gadgets. Not sure if they would make a difference (they really shouldn’t!) but otherwise both games ran smoothly from what I could tell. I certainly didn’t notice anything like you’re describing.

Working on the review, I see! I think someone mentioned a while ago that turning the gadgets off does in fact help, so if you played without them, that might explain it. K Tiger-Heli has had a few patches and I didn't get it until early January, but that release is fine in handheld mode with gadgets on, so maybe something is weird with optimization for handheld mode this time... but like you said, it's very strange that the gadgets would have any impact on performance at all, so a significant impact on performance like this is extremely weird. I've yet to have any problems at all in 2P Same!, which has no gadgets, so I think it's entirely possible that there is some sort of correlation.

[Sumez]

2. Do you do a full shutdown or use sleep mode, and close software after exiting it? I never trust sleep modes to work properly and 90% of the time "when did you last reboot your laptop?" leads to very sheepish end users at work, whose software issues always disappear after they've been told not to leave it in sleep mode for weeks

Sleep mode is like 50% of the reason why the Switch is an amazing video game platform. Being able to shut it off and resume immediately later at any given moment is so good for a majority of the games I play, whether on commutes or at home.

That said, how do you even do a "full shutdown" on Switch? I can't remember the reason, but I wanted to fully restart my Switch the other day and I couldn't find an option to do so anywhere.

[Steven]

2. Do you do a full shutdown or use sleep mode, and close software after exiting it? I never trust sleep modes to work properly and 90% of the time "when did you last reboot your laptop?" leads to very sheepish end users at work, whose software issues always disappear after they've been told not to leave it in sleep mode for weeks

Sleep mode is like 50% of the reason why the Switch is an amazing video game platform. Being able to shut it off and resume immediately later at any given moment is so good for a majority of the games I play, whether on commutes or at home.

That said, how do you even do a "full shutdown" on Switch? I can't remember the reason, but I wanted to fully restart my Switch the other day and I couldn't find an option to do so anywhere.

You have to hold the power button on the system itself for a while and a menu with a few options will show up and it's in there. There is no way to access this menu with a controller.

[Sumez]

I forgot there was a power button on the actual console... I have no idea when I last used that :O

[BrianC]

It's also possible to turn off the switch with no controllers attached and undocked by using the touch screen after holding the power button.

[Some-Mist]

not having spent hugely significant time on any of these toaplan releases, I'm struggling. significantly harder than something like tatsujin oh, but I'm also using the switch joycons instead of my stick and playing it on my big screen tv instead of a good monitor.
I'm still in love with them and with a week trip/some upcoming flights I'll be getting some practice runs/much needed mileage in, but yeeeesh

seems I'll have to touch on the stgweeklys too

Sam3 1p and Tatsujin Oh are overall about the same difficulty to clear, but Sam3 definitely has the harder early game, it's hard from the start but Tatsujin Oh doesn't really get to that level until the Stage 4 boss.

yeah the early game is definitely what's tripping me up. I was only able to squeeze a bit into the 2nd stage in same3 while timing my bombs out for parts I knew I was already struggling with (trying to memorize the spawn points of those planes that circle back/when multiple waves get thrown at you late stage 1 it gets a bit hectic)

with maybe a dozen runs I was able to get towards the back end of first loop 4th stage in hishouzame. did we ever figure out what triggers the white 1up planes? is it just 6 carriers in a row? I was able to trigger in at the start of the 2nd stage

[Steven]

did we ever figure out what triggers the white 1up planes? is it just 6 carriers in a row? I was able to trigger in at the start of the 2nd stage

I've always been very curious about those white 1up planes. I was hoping that the M2 gadgets would reveal some information about them, but not really... all it does is flicker white occasionally. I figured maybe they only spawn on certain frames, but then I thought about it a little more and I don't think that's how it works because then they'd show up in the same spot consistently if you started the game on exactly the same frame every time. I imagine if someone analyzed the flickering of the M2 gadget that some new information might be obtained. I suppose the other way is to look at the game's code somehow, but I don't know how to do that.

There is one other way, though, and it might be easier: ask someone who made the game 35 years ago and see if he remembers.

...I'll see what I can do.

[trap15]

smc looked at the code and I believe he said it was a function of your position on screen and the number of frames since the machine turned on. Effectively just random.

[Some-Mist]

man that's wild. it just so happened that the time I triggered it was on my best run so far with also having cleared all the yellow and red ships in stage 1. there goes any hope for replicating it

[Jonpachi]

Finally had time to jump in today. A couple of dumb questions:

Q: If I choose the Same! 2P version from the menu, does it matter what "side" I'm starting on? If I just hit start with the controller assigned to P1, and I still playing the P2 version?

Q: Is all the DLC on the cart on Switch? I was kinda sad to see a code in my PS4 box. So wish that was on disc.

[drunkninja24]

Yeah I have the Switch physical version and didn't have to do any DLC stuff to get all the extra content.

[ZPScissors]

Q: If I choose the Same! 2P version from the menu, does it matter what "side" I'm starting on? If I just hit start with the controller assigned to P1, and I still playing the P2 version?

The bullet patterns are the same regardless of which side you play on, but Player 2 side does slightly more damage for some reason.

[Rastan78]

Features of 2P version
The 2P version has the following changes from the 1P version.

If there is a blue letter "2P" and a score in the upper right of the title screen in the unplayed state from the start, it is a 2P version.

Minor changes in enemy placement (1st, 10th turrets, etc.)
Change the attack pattern of some enemies and the number of bullets fired at one time.

In addition, some ground batteries and medium-sized aircraft also serve as item carriers with speed items.

Decrease in enemy bullet speed from the start of the game (slow by 3 stages).

Abolition of left and right scrolling.

However, this is also a part where the pros and cons are easily divided because the tactics that drive troublesome enemies off the screen and prevent them from shooting bullets can no longer be used.

The maximum number of shots in the screen of the blue shot has been changed from 4 to 3.

The recovery method at the time of mistake is changed to revival on the spot. However, if you make a mistake, it will explode immediately.

Continue is also on the spot, but be aware that the countdown will not be displayed. (Same specifications as "TWIN COBRA" which is an overseas version of "Ultimate Tiger")

The 2P side has a higher thermal power than the 1P side.

[hamfighterx]

did we ever figure out what triggers the white 1up planes? is it just 6 carriers in a row? I was able to trigger in at the start of the 2nd stage

I've always been very curious about those white 1up planes. I was hoping that the M2 gadgets would reveal some information about them, but not really... all it does is flicker white occasionally. I figured maybe they only spawn on certain frames, but then I thought about it a little more and I don't think that's how it works because then they'd show up in the same spot consistently if you started the game on exactly the same frame every time. I imagine if someone analyzed the flickering of the M2 gadget that some new information might be obtained. I suppose the other way is to look at the game's code somehow, but I don't know how to do that.

There is one other way, though, and it might be easier: ask someone who made the game 35 years ago and see if he remembers.

...I'll see what I can do.

I asked about this back on page 16, curious in particular due to the PS4 version having a trophy and thinking maybe that was some sort of hint that there's a trick to making them appear...

However, I'm now inclined to believe what was posted on https://shmups.wiki/library/Hishouzame, which says:

Spawns upon shooting down 6 consecutive white planes, which randomly take the place of yellow planes with a 1/16 chance. Once the white planes have appeared no more will until either a death or the next stage is reached, and they will never appear in stage 1. After two 1UP items have appeared (the item itself, not the white plane formations), no more white planes will appear at all.

I played around a bit by making a save state a second or two before the appearance of a yellow/white squadron. I was able to get white planes occasionally by continually reloading. I managed to spawn them 3 times at that location, and while that is certainly not a statistically significant sample, it was taking me somewhere between 10-20 reloads per set of white planes - which seems consistent with the stated 1/16 chance.

Also notable that this seems to be calculated at the time of the "special" planes spawning. Since I was using a save state and was able to occasionally get white planes to spawn for the same set of enemies, it's pretty clear that the spawn is not randomly determined at the start of the run/level. I also didn't have many other enemies on screen - though my screen wasn't completely empty, there were probably 3-6 other enemies on screen and I repeated the exact same approach each reload without any differences in things like my weapon level, previously killed red/yellow planes, whatever. I'm sure I wasn't always at the exact same pixel each time (if for some bizarre reason the precise screen position matters), and probably had some very minor differences in score, but I'd strongly suspect that doesn't matter at all and it really is just a purely random chance for the planes to spawn as white.

The gadget is not too useful since it just flickers, but it wouldn't be surprising to see slowed down analysis showing that it holds true to the 1/16 chance and just refreshes continually. At least it's a half decent visual representation of the relative frequency at which the white planes pop up. The more useful gadget IMO is the "time to next special squadron" one, that's pretty handy to be aware of when a special set is about to show up.

Yeah I have the Switch physical version and didn't have to do any DLC stuff to get all the extra content.

Yeah, Switch physical version of the Tiger and Shark collections are both the same: all DLC for the console ports and extra game is on the cart, excluding Teki-Paki (which must be downloaded from the Japanese eshop using the enclosed download code). For PS4, I got the PSN versions but I understand that the physical versions of both the Tiger and Shark collections do require downloads for the console ports and extra game (Guardian or Wardner).

As far as downloads go, also notable that the physical Switch version ships with version 1.0.0 on the cart (at least this production run does). There is already an update to v1.1.0, which I installed immediately upon receiving my Switch cart this week after popping it into the system for the first time and searching for updates. So, you still can't get around having to download something if you want the most current version. I'm not sure what was adjusted in the update from 1.0.0 to 1.1.0.

[Steven]

This happened: https://youtu.be/-1K-dwTItOM

Now I know why bullet sealing exists.

Anyway, I've seen that 1/16 chance thing before. I think that if someone checked out the gadget they'd find that it's probably on white 1/16 of the time, but I don't have any capture tools for consoles, so I can't do it myself.

On them not showing up after the second 1up item, I wonder if this continues for loop 2 and beyond. I'd be surprised if it didn't, but the gadget will likely tell if they do spawn on loop 2 or not just by checking if it flickers or not on loop 2. Time to play the game again and find out, I guess.

[BrianC]

yeah, Tiger Heli tanks is mean! They shoot as soon as they are aimed at you, no matter how close you are to them.

[ZPScissors]

I did it


Here's the full replay

The replay file cap still applies to locally saved replays by the way.

The in-game timer is also still slightly wrong but this time it was only 40 seconds off instead of the nearly 20 minutes my Tiger Heli countersotp's timer was off by.

[XtraSmiley]

I did it


Here's the full replay

The replay file cap still applies to locally saved replays by the way.

The in-game timer is also still slightly wrong but this time it was only 40 seconds off instead of the nearly 20 minutes my Tiger Heli countersotp's timer was off by.

Did you stop on 8 MAY 2022 on purpose? If so, well done and Happy Mother's Day!

[Jonpachi]

I generally find no value in M2's Super Easy modes, but the one in Same! is actually a ton of fun and offers genuine value as a training tool. There's a fantastic little meta game in there of trying to keep the Max Bomb Death Mode running as long as possible.

[DenimDemon]

M2 post a tweet mentioning they are aware about an issue with the PS4 and Switch version of Same! And are working on some update.
Anyone know what’s issue?

Here’s the link

https://twitter.com/M2_game/status/1522 ... ZYpBTavCcQ

[BrianC]

M2 post a tweet mentioning they are aware about an issue with the PS4 and Switch version of Same! And are working on some update.
Anyone know what’s issue?

Here’s the link

https://twitter.com/M2_game/status/1522 ... ZYpBTavCcQ

Sounds like the tweet is referring to the collection, Hi Sho Same! Same! Same! Some odd issues with music playing incorrectly in Hi Sho Same with gadgets on in handheld mode of switch and occasional glitches (like Same!x3 playing slowly, but being fine on reset) with the collection. Didn't notice any issues on PS4, but it looks like there are some issues there too.

[XtraSmiley]

Someone was asking about the posters. What does the Japanese say? And also, why do they use the "water" emoji?

https://twitter.com/u_brand_/status/1522476010398416897

[BareKnuckleRoo]

According to Google Translate:

"I'm very happy that the number will increase steadily from now on, but ... I'm a little troubled ..."

The three emoji at the end aren't water, they're meant to be sweat drops.

This confirms the existence of poster size prints... but doesn't provide any information on where to get one. The account has a website with a store, but it only seems to sell a shirt and a CD. ;w;

[Steven]

Someone was asking about the posters. What does the Japanese say? And also, why do they use the "water" emoji?

https://twitter.com/u_brand_/status/1522476010398416897

lol that's Uemura Tatsuya. He had the Get Star one in the video he posted a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQX59eLywJM

Anyway, he says that he's very happy that they will increase (in number), but he's kind of in a difficult situation (referring to size of posters) *sweat drops indicating oh shit moment*

Edit: lol damn, too slow!

[Steven]

Oh damn, Horii is thinking about Tatsujin + Daisenpuu!

https://twitter.com/hor11/status/1522335530415190016

It seems he hasn't decided yet, but this might turn out a bit differently than we thought.

I guess that's also why we didn't get an announcement the other day; it seems they might not know what they are doing next.

[DenimDemon]

I think these games are making me a better player lol! Just booted up Raiden and blast it till stage 4! At my first try! Hadn’t played for a while. Raiden sniper tanks are nothing compared with Same! Ahahaha then played a bit of Thunder Dragon 2, what a sweet gentle game. Ahahah the pain in the collection is real! No pain no gain [FLEXED BICEPS]