M2 Toaplan collection

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jehu
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by jehu »

jehu wrote:There's an (as far as I can tell) unsubstantiated rumor floating around that Zero Wing / Hellfire are up next. I hope this doesn't end up being true, because I'd much rather have Tatsujin / Oh! - and ZW/HF are already working fantastic on mister. (And, even though I have the option, I never really feel like playing them there. Will still pick 'em up, though.)

It would be a departure from the initial promise of K. Tiger, Hishouzame, Tatsujin, Out Zone. But, from a hardware perspective, it seems to make sense. They've done Fire Shark, so both Zero Wing and Hellfire - all sharing a common underlying architecture - shouldn't require a ton of new technical investment. They'll have to figure out how to implement their gadgets for the new screen format, but I'd guess that's easier than getting Tatsujin Oh working. Maybe we can expect something similar to the Darius gadgets, but I hope they adapt the scrolling map thing somehow.

I'd love to be wrong. My true self wants Tatsujin / Oh! + Demon's World, too.
This is from April 2022 - looks like one Toaplan-crazed content creator might have spilled the beans all the way back then. :oops: :oops:

Though user "redfox" takes the prediction cake prior to me, and without the privileged information - as long as Dash Yarou ends up being the bonus game. I'm still pulling for Demon's World. The bonus artwork of the blond haired, mustachioed protagonist as a grotesque, hyper-realistic roided-up terror might sooth my scorned desire for literally any other pair.

It occurred to me that Zero Wing / Hellfire have the advantage of having easy-to-emulate console ports - they need this for the DLC. Selling the DLC ports is part of their business model. Porting over Outzone/Fixeight would jam that up. Puts into focus why they were considering a Tatsujin/Daisenpuu collection rather than Tatsujin/Ou.

I hope they mess around with the Zero Wing MD endings. I think the recent Retro-Bit rerelease translated all the endings into English. Hard to imagine those translations would be included in M2's famously JPN-only releases, but it would be nice if they mess had a selection menu to let you see some of the #35 variants.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BIL »

I'm just glad to hear they're still going; feels like dodging bullets IRL, after not just the ~25yr wait since Shooting Battle Vol.1, but this series kicking off with those same three games. :lol:

Longtime Hellfire MD advocate here. I kinda like the thought of finally having the AC version, just for completism. No real opinion on Zero Wing either way, but I do hope they cash in like motherfuckers on CATS/AYB. Get that money. Image

Historically I'd have gone with the Tatsujins, and my personal want is OutZone+FixEight, both as a lover of topdown run/guns, and just both's total absence of home versions. Along similar lines, Dogyuun needs bringing home already. I'll be happy with whatever they do, though. Legendary catalogue in masterful hands, and all.
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jehu
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by jehu »

It's the tragic roadside demise of little Timmy Toaplan Shooting Battle #1 on PSX that makes each of these collections drop as though it's M2's last...

Though it is really something that we've got what we've got. The Hishousamex3 release alone has made the whole enterprise more than worth it. 20 years from now I'll retire, put all my affairs in order, and finally devote myself to Same! late-game stage practice.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

Speaking of CATS, I met the creator of CATS a few weeks ago, so I got to talk about CATS with his creator and got my Retro-Bit Zero Wing signed. lol yeah, as you can imagine, that was a lot of fun. I'm seriously hoping that M2 gets the creator of CATS to take off every ZIG by doing the art for this release for great justice. I can only imagine it would follow the trend of the previous releases, which would mean basically something like this:
Spoiler
Image
We already got some new official CATS art by said original CATS creator this year as it is, so I think it's entirely possible.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

So more titles with already good home ports. I'd like to say it could be worse, but could it be worse?
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

Yeah, it could be worse; it could be Enma Daiou, which is unplayable without the pulse-sensing controller on the arcade cabinet.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Sengoku Strider »

BIL wrote:No real opinion on Zero Wing either way, but I do hope they cash in like motherfuckers on CATS/AYB. Get that money. Image
Not sure how much money there is in 20 year old memes, but I don't think it matters either way since this'll be a Japan release, and the goofy Zero Wing English translation was PAL only. Nobody in Japan knows about it, nor would 99.9% of people get why it's funny even if they did.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Steven wrote:Yeah, it could be worse; it could be Enma Daiou, which is unplayable without the pulse-sensing controller on the arcade cabinet.
Is that even a videogame?
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Steven wrote:Yeah, it could be worse; it could be Enma Daiou, which is unplayable without the pulse-sensing controller on the arcade cabinet.
Is that even a videogame?
Apparently so. I guess it's like a quiz game or something combined with a lie detector, which is what the pulse sensing thingy is. It's so rare that very few people have ever actually played it, so if you ever see a cabinet, play it. The cards that the cabinet dispenses to the player upon playing it show up on Yahoo Auctions from time to time.
Sengoku Strider wrote:
BIL wrote:No real opinion on Zero Wing either way, but I do hope they cash in like motherfuckers on CATS/AYB. Get that money. Image
Not sure how much money there is in 20 year old memes, but I don't think it matters either way since this'll be a Japan release, and the goofy Zero Wing English translation was PAL only. Nobody in Japan knows about it, nor would 99.9% of people get why it's funny even if they did.
Don't worry, people here know about it! I'm not sure how, but there are people at my office who don't play games and don't even know English that know about it somehow.
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BIL
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BIL »

Sengoku Strider wrote:
BIL wrote:No real opinion on Zero Wing either way, but I do hope they cash in like motherfuckers on CATS/AYB. Get that money. Image
Not sure how much money there is in 20 year old memes, but I don't think it matters either way since this'll be a Japan release, and the goofy Zero Wing English translation was PAL only.
I know! ;3
Nobody in Japan knows about it, nor would 99.9% of people get why it's funny even if they did.
I dunno, I've seen a fair bit of CATS/AYB fanart in JP circles, over the last twenty-five years or so. But in any case, I'm not thinking of Japan, so much as the Western "d00d Ikaruga lmao" set. Get one of those FOMO publishing houses on it. :cool: Nobody makes good STG money/press talking up the games themselves outside of Japan, nowadays!

Maybe hire the charlatans who marketed Sine Mora to say "Oh yeah, we totes love Zero Wing, even more than Battle Gregory! Cheque please!"

EDIT: Oh hang on, a first-hand report:
Steven wrote:Don't worry, people here know about it! I'm not sure how, but there are people at my office who don't play games and don't even know English that know about it somehow.
Interesting! Yeah, I always had the impression JP audiences were quite aware of AYB. Actually, it wasn't until I got into collecting in the late 00s, and fired up my own cart, that I realised AYB wasn't in the JP cart, nor even its manual. A minor "WTF?" moment, after all the 2channel fanart and memes I'd seen since the turn of the century.

That's very cool to hear the original artist is still around! I hope he sees something out of this, even if it's just a few more twitter follows. :mrgreen:
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by EmperorIng »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:So more titles with already good home ports. I'd like to say it could be worse, but could it be worse?
Hard to say if Shitty Connection and EXA are beating you to the punch regarding games people actually want to play.

Feel like M2 will be long out of business by the time they get to the games people are most excited about (batsugun, shitsujin d'oh, outzone, softlockyuun, horror story)
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BEAMLORD »

I'm praying to the ancient cosmic gods that M2 are just trolling with this Hellfire/Zero Wing tease, and do an Outzone mic drop next week.

I'm really in two minds over whether or not I'd pick this one up, despite a love for the Shottriggers releases. Only dabbled with MD Hellfire, MD Zero Wing I have enjoyed, however they do not set a man's heart on fire.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by kid aphex »

I’m probably alone in this one, but I’ve never played either.
They just happen to be two of the shmups that I’ve never gotten around to trying.
If they include the console ports I’ll be thrilled.

Yeah, of course, I would’ve rather had Outzone… but at least this isn’t another 8-bit clunker.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by hamfighterx »

kid aphex wrote:I’m probably alone in this one, but I’ve never played either.
They just happen to be two of the shmups that I’ve never gotten around to trying.
If they include the console ports I’ll be thrilled.
Mostly the same situation for me. I've just played a little bit of Genesis Zero Wing, and not extensively. I can't imagine they won't include the console ports in this release either. So... OK, I'm down. This was a very expected pairing, just a little surprising to get it now, before Tatsujin or OutZone.
jehu wrote:And maybe we'll get Horror Story as a nice accoutrement.
I'm expecting them to keep with the trend of going chronological order for the non-shooter releases. Which would mean Dash Yarou/Rally Bike (1988) is next. Horror Story/Demon World (1989) is next up after that though.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

BIL wrote:Interesting! Yeah, I always had the impression JP audiences were quite aware of AYB. Actually, it wasn't until I got into collecting in the late 00s, and fired up my own cart, that I realised AYB wasn't in the JP cart, nor even its manual. A minor "WTF?" moment, after all the 2channel fanart and memes I'd seen since the turn of the century.
If you look on the back of the Japanese box, you'll see a screenshot of CATS:
Spoiler
Image
That line is actually the exact line that got butchered into AYB. Yeah, of all the lines that CATS has in the, they picked that one to put on the back of the box, not knowing what they would unleash upon the world with the translation of that exact line in the PAL release. Actually, the overseas Dogyuun!! arcade flyer has some comparably awkward English as well, but that's not (probably) related to the Zero Wing translation.
BIL wrote:That's very cool to hear the original artist is still around! I hope he sees something out of this, even if it's just a few more twitter follows. :mrgreen:
You won't find the CATS artist on Twitter, at least as far as I know, but yeah, the creator of CATS is still around, and is a lot of fun to talk to. Everyone from Toaplan that I have met is, and everyone that I've met so far really loves all of the games they made, which makes me really happy, especially Iwabuchi, who REALLY REALLY REALLY loves Get Star.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BIL »

Steven wrote:That line is actually the exact line that got butchered into AYB. Yeah, of all the lines that CATS has in the, they picked that one to put on the back of the box, not knowing what they would unleash upon the world with the translation of that exact line in the PAL release.
CATS, the hero fated to save shooting games. Image Or at least prompt a few dozen impulse buys. :cool:

I gotta say, throwing down with ACA Phelios - another STG that may as well have been console-original to me, all these years - I'm kinda excited for ACGv3, assuming those are indeed the games. My historical and personal preferences re: Tatsujin and Out Zone remain, but I'm not at all put out.

Hearing there's a real passion for these games at M2 is always encouraging, too. Maybe some people really dig them? >_> I'm content with MD Hellfire and ambivalent on ZW, but there's lukewarmly-regarded stuff I absolutely boner out for too. Good on 'em, I say. Image Would time-travel delete The Ninja Warriors off ACA in favour of masterful, criminally under-known THUNDERFOX aka HELL MISSION in a heartbeat. Image Image I mean I want TNW too, shit's rad (*AK fire* *crowd screaming* "Please... don't... kill meee!" Fuck yeahh! :shock:), but I want TF more. :cool:
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

Yeah, CATS is great. I heard he's somewhere in one of the cutscenes in the PC Engine version, but I only played the first stage and didn't like either the gameplay or the music in that version, so I quit. I'll try it again eventually. I actually rather like MD Zero Wing on some days, but on other days I don't. That soundtrack is incredibly good, though. The enemies in the arcade version have maybe a little bit too much HP for a game without internal autofire, but adding external autofire fixes this and it's not as bad about bloated enemy HP as Tatsujin's minibosses are.

Hellfire is probably a better game than Zero Wing, but for some reason I like actually playing Zero Wing more. MD Hellfire plays really differently from the arcade version, and that actually reminds me of something with the arcade version: the 1P version seems to have a later revision that increases the amount of vertical and diagonal shots the player can have on screen, so I wonder which one M2 will use. MD Hellfire is cool, but the PC Engine version is way too easy. It has better music than PC Engine Zero Wing, though; apparently Uemura-san did the arranged music for PC Engine Zero Wing or something like that, but I don't think it's one of his better arrangements, which is disappointing after that awesome Dogyuun Magic arranged version he did for the Dogyuun!! soundtrack.

I think I forgot to mention this before, but Yuge-san was taking questions at Uemura-san's live a few weeks ago and I asked about Dynamic Trial 7 and Genkai Chousen Distopia. He said that they don't have the data for those, but he has thought of doing remakes of them. We are basically guaranteed to never see the original versions unless they get the data, but remakes would be cool.

I also asked about Enma Daiou since there is extremely little information on that game and he was the producer, and he said that everyone who worked on it has had nothing but bad luck ever since then. That would be a cool movie title... Yuge Masahiro and The Curse of Enma Daiou... or something like that lol.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BEAMLORD »

I prefer Zero Wing over Hellfire too (MD), even if it is the less interesting game. The most interesting thing about Zero Wing is the super weapon, which depending on what you read, either occurs randomly or you need to meet a set of obtuse specifications to trigger. I've never experienced it first-hand. Yeah, soundtrack is amazing though.

Hellfire is built around the varied 4-way shot mechanic, so adds a little strategic spice for puzzle-minded players. I'm not a huge fan of that mechanic, or indeed multiple changeable shot types in general, as you might see in Hellfire, Dezatopia, or Andro Dunos 2 (although I do enjoy that game). It's not a mechanic that totally turns me off, I just gotta be in the mood.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

I have no idea how the super weapon works at all. I've gotten it as early as the very first powerup on stage 2 on two occasions, and I've also gotten all the way to the last boss without ever seeing it. I think it and the 1UP and 10UP items are probably random. I see the 1UP the most often of all of them.

Zero Wing's got a great soundtrack, but I also really like Hellfire's music aside from Egypt, which I am kind of neutral on. Stage 3's Jumping Roll and stage 6's Last Dance are the best ones on the soundtrack.

Toaplan's secret S-tier soundtrack that nobody knows about: Vimana. The music is quiet and the sound effects are comparatively very loud and everybody plays this game holding their 30Hz autofire button until the game ends so they'll probably never hear it over the sound of shooting, but if you listen to the music outside of the game, it's one of the best soundtracks Toaplan ever made.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BEAMLORD »

If M2 ever get around to Vimana, at least we can crank the BGM to 11 :mrgreen:

I'm not familiar with that one. Another one I'm waiting on a modern console port for.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

On the Mega Drive at least, I'm pretty sure you get the super power up by tractor beaming a smart bomb then holding onto it until you destroy another power-up carrier - what I can't remember is whether that carrier needs to have a bomb or would normally spawn the weapon you're currently using. I did it the last few times I played, but it's been a while. Can't recall if you need to be otherwise fully powered up or not either - but it is the bomb that's the key. And it's tough to hold onto the damn thing for any length of time.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by BEAMLORD »

Yep, I've heard that too, Transatlantic Foe. Tried it a number of times to no avail. It is hard keeping hold of that bomb. I usually lose it trying to squeeze between those mechanical pillars in either stage 2 or 3, can't remember where those appear.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by jehu »

I do enjoy both Hellfire and Zero Wing. I wouldn't say I've played either extensively, but I've almost cleared Hellfire on a couple occasions, while Zero Wing has a stage that Gradius-syndrome stonewalls me almost every run (ST. 5 - the blue trains).

For me, the issue is that both games are already fairly accessible on the platforms I use (either on MD or arcade perfect on Mister), while many other games in the catalogue are not. I suppose for those of you who spend a lot of time with MAME, this fact is rather irrelevant.

A lot to look forward to here, in any case. The new artwork is a huge plus. The ability to play these games portably will probably motivate at least a Hellfire clear, and probably a clear of both. I'm interested to see how they will implement gadgets with less screen real-estate. (I hope they still manage to have a detailed map-screen gadget, always the real showstopper with these releases.)

A few very ardent wishes:

1. The game will contain the PC-Engine CD versions of both Zero Wing and Hellfire (esp. the latter for the amazing OST). The console Darius releases didn't contain the PC Engine CD versions, so I don't know if that's something M2 is averse to doing. Still a bit of a baffling exclusion IMO.

2. The OSTs will be toggleable from one version to the others. I would love to play Arcade Zero Wing with the MD OST, and Hellfire Arcade with the PC-Engine CD OST. If I can play the MD version of Hellfire with the PC-Engine CD OST, I will become a staunch defender of this release.

3. Hellfire will contain an option to bind each shot type to an individual button. A =Horizontal shot // X = Cross shot // B = Vertical shot // Y = Back shot - or however you like it. The game should still hold up if changing shot-type is instantaneous. And, if it doesn't, I think that's a condemnation of the game's design that it doesn't remain interesting without so much fiddling around with the shot-select button.

Also, a question: Is Dash Yarou a fondly remembered title? I tried the X68K version for about 15 minutes sometime last year and it did not click with me at all. I hated it. I'm fully willing to admit that I didn't 'get it,' and the game did see a fair number of ports for something 'so bad.' Does it get fun when you take the time to learn the game's systems or is it always a bit tedious?
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Steven »

I just played Horror Story for the first time and it's pretty awesome. Damn, I can't decide whether I'd rather have Dash Yarou or Horror Story in the next collection.
jehu wrote:Also, a question: Is Dash Yarou a fondly remembered title? I tried the X68K version for about 15 minutes sometime last year and it did not click with me at all. I hated it. I'm fully willing to admit that I didn't 'get it,' and the game did see a fair number of ports for something 'so bad.' Does it get fun when you take the time to learn the game's systems or is it always a bit tedious?
At the event the other day, Dash Yarou was brought up several times; Yuge-san mentioned it as one of his favourite Toaplan games during his panel, and I was in a group of people talking to Joker Jun about non-shooting Toaplan games, and since he has never played it, we were all telling him to go play Dash Yarou because it's awesome. Yeah, go try Dash Yarou again, I think. It's pretty rad, or at least I think it is, and I'm surprised that you didn't like it at all. Remember to hold up to go faster!

I checked out the X68000 version just now and the screen looks like it got cut down a bit compared to the arcade version, so I'd definitely try the arcade version.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by Marc »

They need to stop this gadget shit and just port the games decently. I know some of you are raising pitchforks right now, but at the current approach, I don't think we'll get any more than one/two comps over the next two years before its written off as a bad job.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by pablumatic »

Marc wrote:They need to stop this gadget shit and just port the games decently. I know some of you are raising pitchforks right now, but at the current approach, I don't think we'll get any more than one/two comps over the next two years before its written off as a bad job.
I agree with this sentiment.

Unless this will be some long running passion project from M2 where the profits don't matter to them, this series won't get completed at its current pace.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by jehu »

pablumatic wrote:
Marc wrote:They need to stop this gadget shit and just port the games decently. I know some of you are raising pitchforks right now, but at the current approach, I don't think we'll get any more than one/two comps over the next two years before its written off as a bad job.
I agree with this sentiment.

Unless this will be some long running passion project from M2 where the profits don't matter to them, this series won't get completed at its current pace.
I think it is basically a passion project. They're turning their profits elsewhere.

Let's not forget that there's supposedly a Data East Collection on the backburner - one that gives absolutely no fucks about profitability or market viability. Though it's evidently been delayed, so who knows?

You have to feel bad for the lone B-Wings fan weeping as one more livestream passed without mention of the project. And the Boogie Wings lover weeping that their game never even was considered.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by To Far Away Times »

jehu wrote: I think it is basically a passion project. They're turning their profits elsewhere.

Let's not forget that there's supposedly a Data East Collection on the backburner - one that gives absolutely no fucks about profitability or market viability. Though it's evidently been delayed, so who knows?

You have to feel bad for the lone B-Wings fan weeping as one more livestream passed without mention of the project. And the Boogie Wings lover weeping that their game never even was considered.
Wow, I went down the rabbit hole of Data East games to see what they've made in the past. I'd heard of basically none of them.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think the only two Data East games I could name off the top of my head are Night Slashers and Edward Randy.
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

Super Darius ended up on the PC Engine Mini, so I suspect they just didn't have the emulation quite ready for the Cozmic Console release (or it was withheld due to Mini exclusivity and no-one wanted Super Darius 2's weirdness). I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the PC Engine CD ports in this next release.

On the releases as a whole, I don't think the gadgets are causing the slow progress. It's general limited resources available to M2 given how much work they get. Unless they literally slap the ROM in and calll it a day (something this forum tore into the Psikyo re-releases for), they're not going to get through these any quicker. Other Toaplan releases are coming for those who don't care about all the extras in these (Evercade is getting a 2nd this year, and I would think they'd do the lot on it. PC releases are coming too).
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Re: M2 Toaplan collection

Post by OmegaFlareX »

jehu wrote:3. Hellfire will contain an option to bind each shot type to an individual button. A =Horizontal shot // X = Cross shot // B = Vertical shot // Y = Back shot - or however you like it. The game should still hold up if changing shot-type is instantaneous. And, if it doesn't, I think that's a condemnation of the game's design that it doesn't remain interesting without so much fiddling around with the shot-select button.
Yes, this, please. I guess Gate of Thunder is ok, but weapon-cycle shmups generally rub me the wrong way. Imagine my joy when playing Thunderforce V for the first time and there's an option for this. Really wish 3 and 4 had it, too.

Imagine how unbelievably clunky Radiant Silvergun would be with 2 buttons (shot and weapon select).
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