Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighters)

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Samildanach
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Samildanach »

I think a we mostly all probably agree on the worthiness or not at each end of the spectrum. Its the middle of the pack that is more debatable. How about a completely unnecessary tier list of worthiness?

S Tier: M2 Shottriggers. Essential for anyone who is deep down the shmup rabbit hole. The quality exceeds anything we can replicate at home and these are probably worth buying even if you weren't into the game before.

A Tier: e.g. Hamster ACAs and LiveWire Cave releases, with the M2 non-STG releases (such as Darius) at the top end of this Tier. Maybe not worth buying again if you have a superior version (e.g. a 360 Cave release) but it would do the industry good the more of us who support this Tier.

B Tier: e.g M2's mini console releases, Capcom Arcade Stadium and some of the better City Connection releases such as Deathsmiles. I guess generally stuff with 4-8 frames of lag, or better but with other inaccuracies. Not good enough for elite players, but this Tier still has its place for the rest of us and if the price is right, we maybe should consider putting hand in pocket, especially if we have never bought a previous version of thr game. This is probably the most contentious Tier among us.

C Tier: Or rather the Crap Tier, such as the dreadful 10+ lag City Connection releases, or others that might have better lag, but butcher the game in some other way ,(e.g. a port of a phone version of a great arcade game). The future of shmups is probably better off if we DON'T support these releases, so we don't get beloved games ruined by this treatment. I'm guessing we all mostly agree on avoiding this Tier?
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by subcons »

Yup. I agree with that tier list and it’s completely in line with my buying habits. I don’t really buy Hamster releases because they lack tools for practicing (stage select, multiple save states), which are important to me, but I think they’re perfectly reasonably priced releases because they perform well.

It’s a shame Capcom left CAS on PS4 without updates to address performance issues though. I play it on Switch and it’s good. Hopefully that discrepancy won’t still be there for CAS2.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

I agree, with the exception that I think such a list should be based on port quality instead of personal preference. For example, ports of those mobile phone Cave games are special as they'd otherwise be lost to time, and I don't think they deserve to be "C Tier" just because we'd like to see arcade ports instead. Sure, I'd love to get a new DDP DOJ BL port, but that doesn't automatically relegate other versions to C Tier if their port quality is good (and they're pretty good!). The goal here is preservation, and striving for the best possible version of each game. To that end, M2's Toaplan collections are all excellent ways to preserve the many versions of each title, even if the given game (Sky Shark on NES) was not amazing to begin with.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Jonpachi wrote:I agree, with the exception that I think such a list should be based on port quality instead of personal preference. For example, ports of those mobile phone Cave games are special as they'd otherwise be lost to time, and I don't think they deserve to be "C Tier" just because we'd like to see arcade ports instead. Sure, I'd love to get a new DDP DOJ BL port, but that doesn't automatically relegate other versions to C Tier if their port quality is good (and they're pretty good!). The goal here is preservation, and striving for the best possible version of each game. To that end, M2's Toaplan collections are all excellent ways to preserve the many versions of each title, even if the given game (Sky Shark on NES) was not amazing to begin with.
Agree with all this. It's no different from ports of console games to handheld platforms like how we got a rather bad port of Streets of Rage 1 for Game Gear, but a pretty serviceable and fun port of Streets of Rage 2 for GG, a ridiculously good port to GG of Gunstar Heroes (one of M2's earliest works!), several nice shmup ports like Parodius and R-Type for Game Boy, etc. There's many such ports that are still really fun to play. Really impressive to see what they did to port them since it was before the era of basically being able to run the original game in an emulator on your phone. These were how we got to scratch our itch on the go when we couldn't be at home to play them on the actual console, and many of these ports were very well executed despite the limitations of handheld hardware at the time they were made.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Samildanach »

Fair do's on the preservation of mobile versions that would obviously be lost to history; I hadn't thought of that. I guess if it was a pretty good port of the mobile game with low lag etc. then it would be higher up the tierlist just like any other emulated game or port, vice versa if it was a terrible hack job just for a quick buck!

Oh and the likes of the Game Boy's R-Type and Nemesis are what got me into shmups originally anyway, so you'll get no bad word from me about them. The lines do start to blur, but I would count them as their own game (being different enough from the original arcade) and it would the quality of their emulation/porting onto another platform that I would personally apply here (Gameboy Sagaia onto Switch being a good example).
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

Samildanach wrote:Oh and the likes Game Boy R-Type and Nemesis are what got me into shmups originally anyway, so you'll get no bad word from me about them. The lines do start to blur, so I would count them as their own game (being different enough from the original arcade) and it would the quality of their emulation/porting onto another platform that I would personally apply here (Gameboy Sagaia onto Switch).
Yeah, this is where it gets a little weird in terms of lexicon (unique version vs port). Games that were not emulated, but were instead rebuilt from the ground-up for older hardware have their own special place in history. I suppose then Sky Shark NES on the Toaplan collection is an excellent PORT of a fairly bad UNIQUE VERSION of a game. :)

Can't believe I mentioned Sky Shark NES twice in one day... :oops:
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

My S-tier of ports would include M2's Sega Ages line, with its laundry list of extra features, no added lag and multiple save states and practice options. Big shout outs to Thunder Force AC for having selectable alternate ships with their own ranking lists for recording scores. At that point, you're straight-up improving the base game, because you've surpassed emulation. You're creating a better game than the original game. If you like Thunder Force AC, you should play it on Sega Ages instead of in the arcade.

I also really like Live Wire. They get two big thumbs up from me. The first for localizing (big name) games which used to cost hundreds of dollars, and putting them up at $20 apiece. The second because, even on switch, they port these games with essentially no added lag. There might be one lag frame in espgaluda II switch, I dunno. But Mushi switch is the same delay as PC. I'm also hopeful they'll continue localizing these expensive, in-demand Cave shmups. Every Live Wire release includes all the modes for every game, which amounts to a ton of content and really, multiple games in one. With every practice option you could want.

I know they don't have online leaderboards and that's a deal-breaker for some. But it doesn't bother me personally. My top priority is the games play well and there are good practice options and Live Wire cover both.

Hamster has the emulation quality aspect down perfectly, they just need to add more fucking save states and practice features. But that's a point that everyone and their grandmother has already made.

Part of the reason I dislike CAS so much is most of the games on CAS aren't particularly good ports. My assumption is this will also hold true for CAS 2. So we're not only talking about a lot of reprints of titles already on other collections, but my assumption is the port quality will be lackluster. Oh sure, Capcom usually has save states, rewind and optional features (skins and shit.) But does that matter when the games all have added lag and other inaccuracies? CAS isn't Sega Classics Collection or Cotton Saturn Tribute levels of laggy, but it does have added lag.

The bottom tier of ports are Shitty Connection. I love Dragon Blaze, but the switch Dragon Blaze shitty connection port is garbage. There is no level select, there are no save states, no options to change anything really and the game lags out the ass. All the Psikyo stuff is basically unplayable on modern consoles thanks to Shitty Connection. Sega Classics Collection deserves a spot in the trash as well. 8+ frames of lag on fast-paced games like Sonic the Hedgehog 2. With one of the worst interfaces I've seen for these compilations. I bought it on a sale and still feel ripped off.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by brentsg »

I'm trying to grab this on sale, mostlyl want Progear but will get other packs.

Which platform is most playable? I know Switch is usually the worst, so is it better on PS4 or Steam?
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

brentsg wrote:I'm trying to grab this on sale, mostlyl want Progear but will get other packs.

Which platform is most playable? I know Switch is usually the worst, so is it better on PS4 or Steam?
Switch is best for console! There was considerable lag at launch that has been effectively patched on Switch, but not yet for PS4. Steam is perhaps the "best" as referenced above in this thread, but I've personally been digging into Progear myself on Switch and it's very snappy and responsive.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by FunktionJCB »

brentsg wrote:Which platform is most playable? I know Switch is usually the worst, so is it better on PS4 or Steam?
I don't own a PS4, but the Steam version plays great.
All games I tried from the collection do.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by pulsemod »

…and I have Progear on PS4 (and tried Switch version near launch), so it's no wonder I have nothing but negative opinions about CAS. if they've improved it on Switch then I hope this second collection would be at the very least improved to that level on PS4. it'd be nice to get those live wire games on PS4 too, but that's a different story. how about we get some PSP or Vita ports in here too?
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Games are on sale for 99 cents right now. I just picked up Progear, 19XX and Strider.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

Is the default for Giga Wing also 2? It seems way too easy at 2, at least from my memory of the Dreamcast version.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Nope. 4/8 on CPS2.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Jonpachi wrote:Is the default for Giga Wing also 2? It seems way too easy at 2, at least from my memory of the Dreamcast version.
Depends on the version for the CPS2 arcade release. US version is set to 2, JP is set to 4. Same thing in Progear. However, please note that in these games the difficulty appears to be the same in each version at the default setting. This means that it's configured so the US version 2 is equivalent to the JP version's 4 (presumably to appeal to US operator demand that they be able to crank up the difficulty to be credit feedy or something).

Note that the difficulty slider appears to barely have an impact on difficulty in Giga Wing from my experience, but makes Progear massively harder (due to making bullets way faster and thus harder to gem cancel). No idea what tweaks to the difficulty are in this collection for Giga Wing if any.

The Dreamcast version of Giga Wing is harder than the arcade CPS2 version, mainly because it's missing some of the slowdown present in Stage 5, and a LOT of the slowdown missing in the super dense attacks of Stage 6 and 7.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

Thanks!

I'm playing on Switch with the western version of the ROM via CAS. I don't have experience with the PCB, but this feels less optimized than Progear, though perhaps the original game had some lag/jank to the movement. It feels like there's ~5 frames, where it's right on the edge of ice-skatey but still something you can get used to. This might just be me getting acclimated, as I have been in Progear land for a week and only started up GW for a breather.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

Giga Wing feels laggy on switch. There's also some built-in, intentional lag on the shield button, which contributes to the game feeling even laggier. But not counting the shield button, movement still feels laggy in Giga Wing on CAS.

Progear was measured at 5 frames on switch and Giga Wing definitely feels laggier than that game, if you play the two back-to-back. No idea about what the hard number is though.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SPM »

Yeah Progear feels much better. Giga Wing is the laggiest shmup on CAS1 (on Switch and probably on every version). It feels like Switch's Strikers II at around 7 frames (but a bit less annoying given the slower bullets). I started to get pissed off by it when going for a scoring 1CC (I gave up around 40 trillion and will definitely get back to it through MAME at some point, not CAS), but it's playable casually, I enjoyed it a lot!
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

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Sima Tuna wrote:My S-tier of ports would include M2's Sega Ages line, with its laundry list of extra features, no added lag and multiple save states and practice options. Big shout outs to Thunder Force AC for having selectable alternate ships with their own ranking lists for recording scores. At that point, you're straight-up improving the base game, because you've surpassed emulation. You're creating a better game than the original game. If you like Thunder Force AC, you should play it on Sega Ages instead of in the arcade.

This. M2 did some great work on PS2 Sega Ages. Their Tetris Collection is comprehensive.

Tetris (System 16, System E, and Mega Drive versions)
Flash Point (System 16 and Mega Drive versions)
Bloxeed (System 16, System 18, and System C versions)
Tetris: New Century (new game developed exclusively for this compilation)

240p option. Replay support etc. Splendid stuff/
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

The game hasn't released yet despite supposedly releasing today. Nintendo Life did provide a review. 8/10 score, which I find largely irrelevant as they're reviewing the games more than the package. Their criticisms of the package itself are rather damning:
You won’t be taking the likes of Street Fighter Alpha 2 or Saturday Night Slam Masters onto the global stage, nor going international co-op with Knights of the Round. Seeing as online gaming is par for the course these days — and operates without a hitch in the Fighting Collection — it’s as if Capcom is purposely curating the privilege to increase sales of selected packages.
No online multiplayer at all for the fighting games. So you can just write off the back half of the collection entirely. Who the fuck wants to play arcade versions of these games against the CPU endlessly? If I wanted to play single-player fighting games, I'd pick a home conversion like KoF '98 UM or Street Fighter Alpha 3 MAX. Arcade fighting games don't have the modes to support single play. You can't even do co-op in the beat em ups? The fuck kind of purgatory are we living in?!?

Considering some of the brawlers are just reissues of games from the capcom beat em up bundle, you're better off waiting for a sale and grabbing that one. I've heard those games have both local and online coop.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by m.sniffles.esq »

The game hasn't released yet despite supposedly releasing today.

I noticed it was up in the jp eshop, but not the us...
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

m.sniffles.esq wrote:The game hasn't released yet despite supposedly releasing today.

I noticed it was up in the jp eshop, but not the us...
I have no idea what capcom are doing. Most titles that launch on "x" day post up either at midnight when the time changes over or in the morning (my time) when the eshop updates. So imagine my surprise when I checked in the early morning. No CAS 2. Checked after the eshop updated. No CAS 2.

I assume it's going to randomly drop who the fuck knows when, sometime today. As a massive sucker, I'll probably buy Tiger Road and then use that to see what the emulation features are like. But I wanted to warn anyone planning to buy the collection for fighting games not to bother. Hopefully Mark or somebody else will check the input lag. I doubt it'll be less than 5 frames considering the Switch's architecture and previous CAS 1 lag testing results.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by bigbadboaz »

Capcom have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
Sima Tuna wrote: they're reviewing the games more than the package.
This kind of writing is completely ridiculous. The games are the package. Or the package is the game. Whichever way you want it.

If a product sucks, it sucks. REVIEW IT.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

Looks like Play-Asia took down that listing for a "physical" copy... Turns up a 404 if you try to use the old link to it.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BBH »

They patched CAS1 to include all kinds of leaderboards - every game has score and time attack now, instead of them picking and choosing (making almost all the beat-em-ups time attack, etc), plus the silly special challenges like double speed. This is shit that should've been there from day 1, very unlikely a lot of folks are going to back for high score attempts on leaderboards on games that didn't have them before.

And yet they STILL DIDN'T FIX THE EXTRA INPUT LAG WHEN A JOYSTICK IS PLUGGED IN. Confirmed this on both Switch and PS4. Games like Giga Wing are still considerably less laggy when played with a Dualshock 4 or a wireless Switch controller, but if you use a wired joystick, the lag makes it unplayable. I still can't get over how ridiculous it is that a collection called Capcom Arcade Stadium does not give you a good experience when playing with an arcade stick.

I am of course curious as to whether or not CAS2 still has this lag, but seeing how this looks like the same wrapper as the first game I"m sure they didn't fix jack shit. Please someone confirm or deny whenever this shit is out.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

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BBH wrote:And yet they STILL DIDN'T FIX THE EXTRA INPUT LAG WHEN A JOYSTICK IS PLUGGED IN. Confirmed this on both Switch and PS4. Games like Giga Wing are still considerably less laggy when played with a Dualshock 4 or a wireless Switch controller, but if you use a wired joystick, the lag makes it unplayable. I still can't get over how ridiculous it is that a collection called Capcom Arcade Stadium does not give you a good experience when playing with an arcade stick.
I am curious now to try the games out with a wireless controller, but I've been using a wired HRAP V on the Switch and it's fine. There's lag, but it's not unplayable by any measure. I've gotten 1CCa on Giga Wing and Progear with this set-up.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

The game is now listed as out on Steam, but still shows as a "preorder" on Switch. So my best guess at this time is CAS 2 will not release on switch until either midnight tonight (technically the 22nd, lmao) or whenever the eshop next updates. Those are just my assumptions though. I think I'm going to give up on playing this shit today. I'll see what people have to say about the game tomorrow.

I've seen a few different sources confirm the fighting games do not have online multiplayer, btw. Far as I'm concerned, that's a death sentence on about half the library of CAS 2. And if half the games are kaput, then I think the $40 bundle becomes a hell of a lot less worthwhile.

Update: I have now tried out CAS 2. First impressions are underwhelming. I bought Black Tiger and Tiger Road. Probably won't buy anything else. The launcher, options and features are a straight rip from CAS 1. It looks exactly the same, and I do mean exactly. The filter options, background options etc are all the same as CAS 1. Menus work exactly the same way, down to (I think) the same tutorial messages popping up when you enter them for the first time. The games have save states, control remapping and some display options. You can rewind or fast forward just as in CAS 1 and you can change regions IF the game includes both versions.

How do the games play? I mean, they play fine. Neither Black Tiger or Tiger Road are games where I can detect a massive or obvious amount of input delay. I mean, it was the same when I played Warriors of Fate on CAS 1. It feels fine... Because this is just CAS 1. I've heard the steam version has problems detecting controllers. The steam version currently has mixed reception.

All reports I've found around the web indicate the fighting games do not have online multiplayer. At all. The beat em ups don't have online coop. Local or nothing. If you buy the capcom beat em up bundle then you get beat em ups with online coop. If you buy the capcom fighting game collection then you get online multiplayer. We're talking about literally the same games here, too. So, don't buy Knights of the Round or Vampire Savior on CAS 2. Buy them on the other ports or just play them on Fightcade.

The number of desirable games in this collection is very small IMO, if you remove all the games currently found on the beat em up bundle and fighting collection(s) already released. I recommend against paying $40 unless you really do want every single one of these games on CAS 2 for some reason.

To reiterate: CAS 2 is just CAS 1. There is no difference between the packaging around these roms at all. The beat em up bundle is cheaper and more feature-rich. The fighting game collection has online multiplayer. CAS 1 had a better list of games. CAS 2 feels like a shallow cash grab in many ways, although at least the games I've tried don't seem unplayable. I'll be interested if anyone does lag test these titles. I suspect they have exactly the same lag as CAS 1 did, AKA around 5-6 frames for most titles.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Jonpachi »

Up now on Switch in NA.

Can confirm that Eco Fighters supports dual analog play! It's basically a one-button game then, so you can map Shot to one of the triggers and play it in a whole new way. I've always enjoyed the theme and feel of this one, but the rotation mechanic was super touchy and fiddly in the arcade, and just ended up hurting my hands after a while with all the constant toggling. I don't know if this will give you the pixel-perfect accuracy that may be required for later stages, but at first blush it really refreshes how this one plays for me.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SPM »

I've tried it on Switch. First impressions are as good as in CAS1 (after all its patches) but nothing else. Maybe slightly improved (for instance, remapping is now allowed for adding credits, for those using an arcade stick), but if you didn't like CAS1 you probably won't enjoy this either.

I've tried Exed Exes and Gun.Smoke, and they play well enough for a casual run. Not sure about accuracy though... Exed Exes is missing the first extend for some reason in both roms, so there may be more differences.

Gun.Smoke is as awesome as I remember. This port has the option to map a button for each fire direction, useful for pads but will require some getting used to... 6 buttons are a lot of buttons. I may end up playing this with an arcade stick.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by subcons »

SPM wrote:Gun.Smoke is as awesome as I remember. This port has the option to map a button for each fire direction, useful for pads but will require some getting used to... 6 buttons are a lot of buttons. I may end up playing this with an arcade stick.
Good to hear. This is the one I’m mostly interested in as I’d like to be able to play it on my Switch off the dock. Sounds like I’ll end up with B shooting straight, Y and A shooting left and right, and make X = Y+A. Perfect for some handheld Gun.Smoke.
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