Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighters)

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BrianC
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BrianC »

BBH wrote: And yet they STILL DIDN'T FIX THE EXTRA INPUT LAG WHEN A JOYSTICK IS PLUGGED IN.
Switch is known to have extra lag with wired controllers and DS4 has less lag than many wired controllers.
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Rastan78
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Rastan78 »

BrianC wrote:
BBH wrote: And yet they STILL DIDN'T FIX THE EXTRA INPUT LAG WHEN A JOYSTICK IS PLUGGED IN.
Switch is known to have extra lag with wired controllers and DS4 has less lag than many wired controllers.
AFAIK Switch doesn't have that problem. It's that the Switch Pro controller itself has more latency wired than in BT for some reason.

According to the tests for Switch Shmup Junkie did a ways back, a wired Hori RAP or fighting commander pad come in around 4 to 5 ms. Faster than the pro controller in BT mode.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

Picked it up on Steam this morning and it's fantastic. I had some issues with audio popping in the first CAS and 2nd is the same. I spent ages messing with things to fix it and eventually found it was caused by the DoF setting! Turning it off fixes the problem. Weird.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Rastan78 wrote:
BrianC wrote:
BBH wrote: And yet they STILL DIDN'T FIX THE EXTRA INPUT LAG WHEN A JOYSTICK IS PLUGGED IN.
Switch is known to have extra lag with wired controllers and DS4 has less lag than many wired controllers.
AFAIK Switch doesn't have that problem. It's that the Switch Pro controller itself has more latency wired than in BT for some reason.

According to the tests for Switch Shmup Junkie did a ways back, a wired Hori RAP or fighting commander pad come in around 4 to 5 ms. Faster than the pro controller in BT mode.
IIRC the thing with the Switch and wired controllers isn't related to any particular device, it's that a wired input has to pass through the dock and then to the console, which adds a frame of latency. I don't know if anyone's tested the new OLED dock to see if any significant engineering changes were made.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sloppy_J »

Eco Fighters plays well on Switch. Doesn’t feel laggy.
First time playing it and I’ve noticed that you get a bigger bonus for the speed at which you take down bosses rather than for taking them down piece by piece.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BrianC »

Weren't many of the initial tests in handheld mode with an adapter? Later tests added an extra frame when docked IIRC.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by bigbadboaz »

Wait a minute - so is this alleged extra wired lag on Switch or PS4? And are we talking about shit programming or some built-in deficiency with said console's wired USB driver?
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BBH »

Rastan78 wrote:
BrianC wrote:
BBH wrote: And yet they STILL DIDN'T FIX THE EXTRA INPUT LAG WHEN A JOYSTICK IS PLUGGED IN.
Switch is known to have extra lag with wired controllers and DS4 has less lag than many wired controllers.
AFAIK Switch doesn't have that problem. It's that the Switch Pro controller itself has more latency wired than in BT for some reason.

According to the tests for Switch Shmup Junkie did a ways back, a wired Hori RAP or fighting commander pad come in around 4 to 5 ms. Faster than the pro controller in BT mode.
I don't know why people keep gaslighting me to try to convince me that the fault does not lie in CAS.

This same stick (an HRAP4) feels perfect on anything else I play on PS4. In particular things like the ACA ports, and of course the M2 releases of Ketsui and ESPRade, since they know what they're doing with ports.

On the Switch? Using this same wired stick feels absolutely fine with ACA ports again, and G-Darius (again M2), among others. Yeah, it's through a Brooks converter, but it does the job just fine. Never in using this have I felt like I'm getting hindered by input lag.

I guess I have to repeat this - lag in the Capcom Arcade Stadium games through this stick is different on a game-by-game basis. The more advanced the hardware, the more lag there is. 1942 feels pretty close, but anything on CPS2 feels noticeably laggy, with Giga Wing being probably the worst offender, feels like I'm sliding around on ice. I can see a definite decrease in lag when switching to a wireless controller and attempting to move around, and it feels like more than 5 frames.

This is an old tweet but it shows that I'm not the only one this happens to. Tell me if this looks like "only" 4 to 5 frames of lag.

https://twitter.com/DolphinDTM/status/1 ... 7299909632
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Rastan78 »

Ah OK. I was misreading his spreadsheet and thinking the results were for the controller itself in msec. He was testing his whole system lag to the TV in frames.

If the USB port on the dock adds lag that would make perfect sense bc he got near identical results for the Brook Universal both wired/wireless. Also would explain how the retrobit Sega pad in BT could actually be faster than a wired Brook board.

So the stock joycon will probably always be the fastest thing? With all the used drifting joycons laying around, it's too pad they wouldn't be easier to pad hack. I'm sure the joycon PCBs would fit nicely in a joystick case, but then you also have to think about keeping them charged.

Still I have to wonder how BBH is experiencing crazy input lag when playing on joystick on both PS4 and Switch. What joystick is it? Is it performing OK on other games?
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Rastan78 »

I was trying to point out that the Switch shouldn't feel excessively laggy just bc you play on joystick. So the lag you're getting has to be coming frome the game.

It's probably also worth pointing out that the collection has lag all over the map. Some of them are good and some are terrible. Giga Wing was the one for me that I fired up and was instantly like wow this is some of the worst lag I think I've ever felt.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

Giga Wing has notorious lag on CAS 1. Even so, it's not the worst I've ever felt. That honor would go to the sega classics collection.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by BBH »

Rastan78 wrote:Still I have to wonder how BBH is experiencing crazy input lag when playing on joystick on both PS4 and Switch. What joystick is it? Is it performing OK on other games?
BBH wrote: This same stick (an HRAP4) feels perfect on anything else I play on PS4. In particular things like the ACA ports, and of course the M2 releases of Ketsui and ESPRade, since they know what they're doing with ports.

On the Switch? Using this same wired stick feels absolutely fine with ACA ports again, and G-Darius (again M2), among others. Yeah, it's through a Brooks converter, but it does the job just fine. Never in using this have I felt like I'm getting hindered by input lag.
I should also point out that I've also briefly used a custom Xbox360 stick with converter on the Switch too, and it performed comparably to the HRAP4. Fine on everything I tried except CAS.

I don't know if I tried every fighting game on CAS1 on it, but I remember one of the first things I played was SF2 The World Warrior and I could tell something felt off before I knew about the stick lag problems.

(full disclosure - I did not actually pay anything for CAS1 because my partner received a complementary review code for the Switch version, and then later the PS4 version. we didn't get one for CAS2 and I don't feel inclined to waste my money on this, hence my curiosity as to whether anybody can confirm these stick lag problems are still present in this. But then again I don't really need to ask because they haven't changed anything since CAS1)
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

Tested the PC version of Giga Wing (the laggiest game by far) with some basic lag tests and was getting ~5.7 frames of lag. This was with ultra low latency mode engaged and VRR on a Hori RAP 4. I'll test with a wireless Saturn controller in a bit. PC shmups are often 2-3f less than the Switch so this lines up with the Shmup Junkie measurements.

This was with borderless window mode as for some reason, exclusive fullscreen is all washed out in CAS1 and in CAS2 VRR doesn't seem to engage properly for me. Annoying although I can't see it being any lower.

EDIT: Pad was ever so slightly faster at 5.25f (21 frames of 240fps video)
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Rastan78 »

Just out of curiosity what function does VRR serve on games like CAS? Do they actually let you run the games at their original arcade refresh rate without skipped frames or stuttering? Most console ports either just lock to 60hz refresh making the game speed lightly off or skip frames to match the original game speed at the cost of slight judder in motion.

Or does VRR just let you turn off v sync to get better input latency without introducing screen tearing?

I mean I get what it does for modern games, but I'm curious to see how or if it will be implemented in retro console stuff going forward.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

Rastan78 wrote:Just out of curiosity what function does VRR serve on games like CAS? Do they actually let you run the games at their original arcade refresh rate without skipped frames or stuttering? Most console ports either just lock to 60hz refresh making the game speed lightly off or skip frames to match the original game speed at the cost of slight judder in motion.

Or does VRR just let you turn off v sync to get better input latency without introducing screen tearing?

I mean I get what it does for modern games, but I'm curious to see how or if it will be implemented in retro console stuff going forward.
As far as I can tell, it works the same. I can see the refresh constantly fluctuating around 60Hz to follow the framerate. I'm not sure if any of the Capcom games were lower than 60Hz though i.e like how some old games are 57Hz. I did hear people complaining about 1942 having irregular frame pacing and that looks perfectly smooth to me with VRR on.

EDIT: Just did 1942 and it's around 4f. This is obviously total system lag including the LCD display and controller.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

Just as a comparison, I just tested Crimzon Clover World EXplosion with the same method and the numbers were identical to 1942 in CAS1.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by el_rika »

SeeNoWeevil wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:Just out of curiosity what function does VRR serve on games like CAS? Do they actually let you run the games at their original arcade refresh rate without skipped frames or stuttering? Most console ports either just lock to 60hz refresh making the game speed lightly off or skip frames to match the original game speed at the cost of slight judder in motion.

Or does VRR just let you turn off v sync to get better input latency without introducing screen tearing?

I mean I get what it does for modern games, but I'm curious to see how or if it will be implemented in retro console stuff going forward.
As far as I can tell, it works the same. I can see the refresh constantly fluctuating around 60Hz to follow the framerate. I'm not sure if any of the Capcom games were lower than 60Hz though i.e like how some old games are 57Hz. I did hear people complaining about 1942 having irregular frame pacing and that looks perfectly smooth to me with VRR on.

EDIT: Just did 1942 and it's around 4f. This is obviously total system lag including the LCD display and controller.
There are hardly any arcade Capcom games at 60 fps.
Neither CPS1, 2 and 3 are at 60 fps. They're at 59.59.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by SeeNoWeevil »

el_rika wrote:
SeeNoWeevil wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:Just out of curiosity what function does VRR serve on games like CAS? Do they actually let you run the games at their original arcade refresh rate without skipped frames or stuttering? Most console ports either just lock to 60hz refresh making the game speed lightly off or skip frames to match the original game speed at the cost of slight judder in motion.

Or does VRR just let you turn off v sync to get better input latency without introducing screen tearing?

I mean I get what it does for modern games, but I'm curious to see how or if it will be implemented in retro console stuff going forward.
As far as I can tell, it works the same. I can see the refresh constantly fluctuating around 60Hz to follow the framerate. I'm not sure if any of the Capcom games were lower than 60Hz though i.e like how some old games are 57Hz. I did hear people complaining about 1942 having irregular frame pacing and that looks perfectly smooth to me with VRR on.

EDIT: Just did 1942 and it's around 4f. This is obviously total system lag including the LCD display and controller.
There are hardly any arcade Capcom games at 60 fps.
Neither CPS1, 2 and 3 are at 60 fps. They're at 59.59.
I meant noticebly below 60Hz. My display shows the current refresh fluctuating when in VRR mode and you wouldn't be able to tell looking at it that it was 59.59Hz. It might explain why there's a slight skip on fixed refresh displays.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by jehu »

Sloppy_J wrote:Eco Fighters plays well on Switch. Doesn’t feel laggy.
First time playing it and I’ve noticed that you get a bigger bonus for the speed at which you take down bosses rather than for taking them down piece by piece.
Am I missing something, or is it impossible to set an autofire button on shot?

I realize the game is build around charge shots and whatnot, but autofire is very useful in Eco Fighters - like very, very, very. I can understand why they might discourage its use, but would hate to think they just don't even give you the option.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by lovecraft »

A great idea Capcom should have is a physical "Makaimura Anthology" including the awesome Goku Makaimura Kai PSP, and the recent Ghosts 'n Goblins Resurrection...
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Signed.

May I receive the wise about Saturday Night Slammers, also known by the most awesome original title Muscle Bomber: The Body Explosion?
The hyperbole is enough to excite me. I even enjoy that a lot was changed in fighter's backgrounds and the names for the NA release, which I find otherwise annoying with the messiness.
Is the single player fun though? Ready to roll with the next monetary wave, then.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

PSA: The Capcom Beat Em Up Bundle is currently half price on the eshop. I believe I also saw it was on sale a week or two ago on PS4 for even less. If you want to play beltscrolling capcom beat em ups WITH online, extra artwork, borders and a high quality of porting overall, I definitely recommend it. It has all of the beat em up beltscrollers from CAS 1 and CAS 2.

Final Fight (CAS1)
King of Dragons (CAS2)
Knights of the Round (CAS2)
Armored Warriors (CAS1)
Battle Circuit (CAS1)
Captain Commando (CAS1)
Warriors of Fate (CAS1)

The price to buy just King of Dragons and Knights of the Round on CAS is about equivalent to what the entire beat em up bundle costs when it's on sale. It goes on sale frequently. Again, the games in this bundle have online, whereas CAS does not. Add to this that you would have to play these games in CAS across two separate launchers.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by velo »

lovecraft wrote:A great idea Capcom should have is a physical "Makaimura Anthology" including the awesome Goku Makaimura Kai PSP, and the recent Ghosts 'n Goblins Resurrection...
My dream is to have the GBA Super GnG arrange mode ported to anything without screen crunch. I wouldn't mind having the dead and forgotten smart phone games either, or the Wonderswan one, or any other obscura slipping my mind at the moment.

Sima Tuna wrote:PSA: The Capcom Beat Em Up Bundle is currently half price on the eshop. I believe I also saw it was on sale a week or two ago on PS4 for even less. If you want to play beltscrolling capcom beat em ups WITH online, extra artwork, borders and a high quality of porting overall, I definitely recommend it. It has all of the beat em up beltscrollers from CAS 1 and CAS 2.

Final Fight (CAS1)
King of Dragons (CAS2)
Knights of the Round (CAS2)
Armored Warriors (CAS1)
Battle Circuit (CAS1)
Captain Commando (CAS1)
Warriors of Fate (CAS1)

The price to buy just King of Dragons and Knights of the Round on CAS is about equivalent to what the entire beat em up bundle costs when it's on sale. It goes on sale frequently. Again, the games in this bundle have online, whereas CAS does not. Add to this that you would have to play these games in CAS across two separate launchers.
I don't have an online subscription to check, but I'd be impressed if you can actually get a match in that thing. Probably need to go to fightcade for that. The BEU Bundle allows only one save slot per game (per region) and no rewind, so for me it's gone mostly untouched since CAS1 dropped. Sadly CAS lacks the Western/English version of Powered Gear (Armored Warriors), for no reason I can guess.

To be honest, there are more than 10 games in CAS2 that I wouldn't mind paying $4 for, with this feature set, so $40 for the whole mess is not a terrible deal imo... but I'm still waiting for a sale out of spite. I just can't get over how much better it could and should have been.

Switch CAS1 got another update recently. If Capcom are still ghosting the other platforms, they must REALLY hate you guys, sorry...
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by ShmupJunkie »

FYI I should be done with my Stadium 2 video by this Sunday and it includes input delay results for most of the games I'm showing. At least all of the STGs, platformers and beat em ups I go over. Overall it's looking pretty good for what's essentially an emulated collection running on a front end GUI. As good as 3-4 frames for some older games like Black Tiger and Gunsmoke... and so far nothing above 6. Nothing approaching the higher latency stuff like Giga Wing on the last collection. Almost everything is in the 3-5 frame range which is good to see on a Switch. I'm using a stock Joycon to test and subtracting the 14ms of my display, since that will vary person to person. Even though I'm rounding off a bit I'm still measuring at 240fps to a quarter frame, so there are some 4.5 etc. in there. Take my results, add your display, and any additional delay you're getting from your choice of pad or stick. Hopefully no more than an extra frame if you have a decent TV and controller. No, we aren't going to see M2 port type numbers here, but given how many lazy ports and 8+ frame releases are out lately, it's good to see a major release like this do a decent job of things in that regard.

The Switch dock adds half a frame of delay approx, not a full frame. I debunked that a while ago with a lot of testing and an old video by measuring it properly down to a quarter frame. So don't be afraid to use your favorite wired and docked if that's your preference. I personally use my wired Hori FC for playing older games on Switch as I like the pad and form factor. And it performs close to the Joycon. Or just use a PS4 and not worry about it at all. :P

Edit: One additional thing of note I am finding that's somewhat disturbing. Testing via my RAPV Busa for Switch is getting me somewhere around 1.5 frames slower than the Joycon. I already tested the RAPV long ago as being well less than a frame off the Joycon, less than 3/4 frame difference including the half frame from the USB port. So that points to something with the collection or related adding more when using certain 3rd party controllers. I'll test a bit more and see if it also varies by game and mention it in the video.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Sima Tuna »

ShmupJunkie wrote:FYI I should be done with my Stadium 2 video by this Sunday and it includes input delay results for most of the games I'm showing. At least all of the STGs, platformers and beat em ups I go over. Overall it's looking pretty good for what's essentially an emulated collection running on a front end GUI. As good as 3-4 frames for some older games like Black Tiger and Gunsmoke... and so far nothing above 6. Nothing approaching the higher latency stuff like Giga Wing on the last collection. Almost everything is in the 3-5 frame range which is good to see on a Switch. I'm using a stock Joycon to test and subtracting the 14ms of my display, since that will vary person to person. Even though I'm rounding off a bit I'm still measuring at 240fps to a quarter frame, so there are some 4.5 etc. in there. Take my results, add your display, and any additional delay you're getting from your choice of pad or stick. Hopefully no more than an extra frame if you have a decent TV and controller. No, we aren't going to see M2 port type numbers here, but given how many lazy ports and 8+ frame releases are out lately, it's good to see a major release like this do a decent job of things in that regard.

The Switch dock adds half a frame of delay approx, not a full frame. I debunked that a while ago with a lot of testing and an old video by measuring it properly down to a quarter frame. So don't be afraid to use your favorite wired and docked if that's your preference. I personally use my wired Hori FC for playing older games on Switch as I like the pad and form factor. And it performs close to the Joycon. Or just use a PS4 and not worry about it at all. :P
Always good to know and thanks for all the testing work you do. It's appreciated. 3-5 frames on switch is very typical (3 less common, so I'll be interested which of the games hit that marker.)

The main issue with the switch adding lag isn't so much the half a frame of additional lag native to the console, as what happens when you start adding up every individual lag source + the innate lag + if you're running a controller through the dock. :lol: And then if the porting job has 7 frames of lag on top, hoo-boy. Sega ClASSics Collection, here I come!

3-4 frames for Black Tiger is a minor achievement in itself. Especially given, as you said, the amount of dross we've seen released with laggy-ass porting jobs.

I'm still of a negative opinion overall on the decision to make a 2nd version of the exact same launcher and sell it with different games. Especially when most of those games have better versions (beat em up bundle + fighting collection) on the same platforms. But if, at least, the few non-reprinted games run well, then that will give people a reason to pick up those particular titles on sale.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by ShmupJunkie »

Video just went live for anyone still interested in the test results, at least for the games I show and played. Toward the end of the video (and also noted in Chapters) I have a short tech section where I show a handful of games and how they performed with both the RAPV and Retrobit BT controller versus the stock Joycon. And how it varied across some games. I was only going to spend so much time with it as sussing out the issues is more a job for someone on Capcom's payroll. Hopefully bringing attention to it will help others and though unlikely, get someone at Capcom to finally take a look at why 3rd party controllers and sticks are inconsistent via these collections.

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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by bigbadboaz »

It'd be nice to specify (which seems clear from reading the details of your posts) that you have tested _the Switch version only_. With ongoing confusion between the status of Switch/PS4 revs, the PS4 version of 1 having been significantly slower, and Capcom seeming to only bother issuing patches on the Switch side, this is important.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Rastan78 »

Interesting stuff. Thanks for your hard work putting together these vids ShmupJunkie. I know it must be hard with tinfoil hat guy humping everything in the room while you try to edit.

So BBH was totally right about the increased lag with a stick. Strange stuff.

One thing I've never seen testing on is if any 3rd party dock has better latency than the original Nintendo dock. Brook is known for low latency stuff, and they have an HDMI cable that goes straight from the USB-C out and skips having an actual dock. Of course you could use only wireless controllers and internet since there are no extra USB ports:
https://www.brookaccessory.com/detail/06675865/

Then they also have the "Power Bay" which has more features than the original dock such as an ethernet port etc.
https://www.brookaccessory.com/powerbay/index.html

And of course theres the newer first party dock that comes with the OLED model.

Anyone ever messed around with any of these products to see if they offer any improvement in the lag dept?
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Azathoth_0 »

velo wrote:I don't have an online subscription to check, but I'd be impressed if you can actually get a match in that thing. Probably need to go to fightcade for that.
About 3 months ago I was trying to go for the achievement for playing all titles online for the Xbox One version. It's not completely dead, but pretty close to it. Having a drop in/out setup is all that saves it.
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Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium 2 Announced (GunSmoke, ECO Fighter

Post by Klatrymadon »

Is there any particular reason for the extra lag on stick? Are pad PCBs wildly different from stick PCBs? (I've tinkered with both in lots of mods without knowing much about their workings...)
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