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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:45 pm 



Joined: 20 May 2018
Posts: 101
ShmupJunkie wrote:
Aside from other emulation glitches, the response on Progear and many of the games has been good and around what I expect on the Switch. As I'm lag testing many of the game working on my review, Progear averages 4.5 frames using the Joycon. Add your display and you're realistically between 5 and 6, pretty much most Switch shmups (EspRaDae is 5) aside from smokin' fast games like Ikaruga (3 frames). Some on the collection have been faster at under 4 frames, and a few so far like Giga Wing close to the 8 frame range. However Giga Wing is an unusual one due to the charge mechanic, so testing the shot may not be accurate, as it may have a built-in delay to it. I remember the Dreamcast port was the same and I'll be testing it again to compare. But in general, the majority of the games are in that 4-5 frame range so far. I've never had an issue clearing any games or enjoying them on Switch when they are in that ballpark, although I'm not elite for multiple loops etc. There are other emulation glitches and such, but in terms of delay it's very much a cut above something like the Psikyo games all running at 7 frames plus. I've had no issue playing through the games I already know well and started out with to test. I was only annoyed that the opening alert sound on Strider is messed up, which is an old emulation bug fixed long ago in other emulators, as it's so obvious right at the opening. Most likely they were crunched for time and will get back to it. I'm loving Varth though that one is new to me.


About that ESPrade having 5 frames, what was the setup again? In Mark's chart, it's 4 in handheld mode using Hori Split Pad Pro. Did you have some difference in how you count, how you round if it's a bit above 4 or what was it? I have the game on both PS4 and Switch and the difference of feel is not that big, so I would surprised if the difference would be 2 frames (or 3 if docked with hori hayabusa stick using usb added one more frame), which is why Mark's result sounded "right".

If I compared just based on feel, the difference to the shmups on Capcom Arcade Stadium, ESPrade feels quite clearly more responsive and sharp, so it's surprising if it ends up the same in some titles.

But yeah, I agree, I don't think it prevents doing well in these games and is probably good enough for most of the audience. Shmups really benefit from having low input lag though, it just feels so much better when the movement is really responsive and sharp and not sluggish and/or slippery (and definitely gives extra confidence to do better). Here is hoping they are able to improve it at least on the worst offenders and also fix the stuttering and other bugs.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:05 am 


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To clarify, that 5 frame number was end to end including my display which has 14ms of delay at center, so subtract that and the game itself is closer to 4 just as Mark tested. I use a Brooke universal board with a stick to cross test PS4/Swtich games so the controller remains constant. It will be a bit faster with a Joycon but that's the best way, and who plays it with a Joycon... ; )

On a side note, a while ago it was discussed that Giga Wing had a high input delay and it was possible it was connected to the charge mechanic of the main shot, so movement should be tested. I am working on 1941 and it also tested high at near 7 frames of delay. I thought maybe it was due to the same thing as it also has a charge attack. I pulled out the Supergrafx and my 1941 copy and tested it direct on the CRT. It's only 2.5 frames of delay for the shot, and I can assume the PCB is likely just as good or better. So it's the emulation and not related to the charge shot. At least not with 1941. Just thought it was interesting to note. 1941 is a really fun game I like it a lot, and I played it fine on this collection, but the numbers are the numbers FYI. The original game does not have any extra delay on the shot due to the charge. I wouldn't be surprised if someone tested a Giga Wing PCB and it turned out to be under 3 frames as well.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:06 pm 



Joined: 29 Oct 2013
Posts: 187
Location: Sweden
Update today to v1.0.3
Anyone knows what it did?


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:00 pm 



Joined: 20 May 2018
Posts: 101
ShmupJunkie wrote:
To clarify, that 5 frame number was end to end including my display which has 14ms of delay at center, so subtract that and the game itself is closer to 4 just as Mark tested. I use a Brooke universal board with a stick to cross test PS4/Swtich games so the controller remains constant. It will be a bit faster with a Joycon but that's the best way, and who plays it with a Joycon... ; )


From your earlier video on the input lag subject, I remember you mentioning that also the Switch own screen would have some input lag, quite similar to your TV (just checked your video for that actually), so it wouldn't be probably that causing the difference. Your controller lag test gave brook board (USB) +1 frame more than Joycons and if those Hori Split Pad Pro would match Joycons (could be, those are great IMO), then that would explain that 1 frame difference to the Mark's handheld test result.

What comes to the input lag of this Capcom Arcade Stadium, there shouldn't be any reason for them not to reach the 5 frames common to Hamster Switch releases, but I fear they have overhead from the RE Engine wrapper as suspected by many (and that probably causes the stutter as well) and I wonder can they patch it so that they would be able to bypass it (my hunch is that no, they cannot, unless they gave up on the "fancy" display modes altogether, which I doubt). The input lag variance between games is strange too, as if the configuration for some games wouldn't be optimal (I doubt it's related to Switch capabilities in this case). That is something I believe could be fixed though.

I really wonder how M2 is able to reach 3-4 frames on Switch for games that run on emulator and not natively. I seriously doubt Capcom could achieve those numbers with this setup.

ps. The 1.03 release today didn't seem to affect the stutter / input lag, at least I didn't notice any clear differences when I tried it.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:53 pm 


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For Progear at least, Japanese Twitter is reporting that it fixed an issue that prevented the gunner from firing when shooting continuously (I assume tapping A rather than Auto but I don’t know progear well enough to know proper gunner behaviour).
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:22 pm 


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Now wonder they never included Dynasty Warriors before, it's a piece of crap.
1941 however is great. I'm sure I hated this game on one of the earlier collections for some reason, unless there's yet another 19-something not included here?
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:08 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2017
Posts: 23
velo wrote:
Just to show what I'm talking about with the autofire (the difference is more obvious with the sound on)

Mummy in Capcom Arcade Stadium: https://twitter.com/suprodupro/status/1 ... 8286873603
Mummy in Capcom Beat em Up Bundle: https://twitter.com/suprodupro/status/1 ... 9158436865

Cody in Capcom Arcade Stadium: https://twitter.com/suprodupro/status/1 ... 1118226433
Cody in Capcom Beat em Up Bundle : https://twitter.com/suprodupro/status/1 ... 8647882752

So Cody is "not that bad" I guess, Mummy is slower than casual mashing and doesn't always punch at a constant rate. Yes I was mad enough about this to sign up for Twitter lol

Little update on my whining about autofire: I think they did it "wrong" on purpose. I noticed that they disable your autofire button for the bonus round in Warriors of Fate, and even programmed in a little overlay so you understand which buttons to mash (I've got autofire on Y):

Spoiler: show
Image


They went to the trouble of doing this in a game where score barely matters for survival, and isn't that well-oriented for score-chasing, just to keep you from cheating at the bonus round. So here's my theory:

1) In Final Fight/Battle Circuit, they set the autofire to roughly the rate of a vigorous mash, because the superhuman speed allowed by the software itself would be "cheating"

2) The autofire speed in Captain Commando is abnormally slow because there's a mechanic where you mash out of enemy grabs, and they don't want to allow free grab-escapes by holding down one button

If I'm right, that's kinda asinine imo, but hey at least they put some thought into it. Have to agree with whoever said that whatever you want to complain about, this really isn't just a lazy cash grab. They really are genuinely trying to encourage competition, provide incentives for casuals to get better and so on. Like you get some Monopoly money/trophies for dumb stuff like dying the first time, but you get way more for clears, not using rewind or continues, and so on. I actually did the score challenge for SF2:WW and had fun with it, and that's a game that I probably wouldn't have touched otherwise. As obnoxious as all the popups are the first time you turn this thing on, I think the fluff is pretty good in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:29 pm 


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The auto fire issue isn't likely all that premeditated, or it's a bit of both, as I am noticing it in shmups that very much need it. The auto fire in carrier airwing is very slow and unusable versus just rhythmically pressing the shot button. And if there are any games that could use auto fire working properly it's all the shmups. Varth was the same where I get many more shots out by simply using the normal shot button.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:03 am 


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ShmupJunkie wrote:
The auto fire issue isn't likely all that premeditated, or it's a bit of both, as I am noticing it in shmups that very much need it. The auto fire in carrier airwing is very slow and unusable versus just rhythmically pressing the shot button. And if there are any games that could use auto fire working properly it's all the shmups. Varth was the same where I get many more shots out by simply using the normal shot button.


Carrier Airwing's auto fire is slightly different to most though - similar to U.N Squadron it's more of a 'Squeeze' motion where one longer press fires out a short burst of auto fire - I've found the trick is to time the squeeze just right.

Really want to git good at C.A. as U.N. squadron on the SNES is one of my favourites of all time (and one of the few SHMUPS I can say I've mastered, got the 1 life clear on hard mode) but arcade C.A. is crazy difficult, I was kind of expecting more of the same :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:42 am 


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Mine patched last night, though I was too busy getting my ass kicked at various GnG games to really tell any differences.
I got my 19-- games mixed up. 1941 sucks, but 19XX and 1944 are both great. Bit weird Kai isn't included.
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Last edited by Marc on Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:37 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Posts: 363
1941 is pure gold, you impudent apostate. Just learn when they come from behind and how to use the yawing manoeuvre.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:25 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2010
Posts: 128
Im on verzion 1.03 and it still has frameskip.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:27 pm 


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defected78 wrote:
Im on verzion 1.03 and it still has frameskip.


Argh. I'm usually not too bothered by minor emulation inaccuracies, but the stuttering is killing some games for me. I was gonna bite on the whole package, but I will wait now to see if/when they fix this. I'm worried they have no plans to ever fix it, as it might be too deep a technical issue for them to bother with. They knew it was an issue before shipping the thing, so internally they were already fine putting out a subpar product.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:39 pm 


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Any word on when this is hitting the PS4?
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:52 pm 


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Jonpachi wrote:
Argh. I'm usually not too bothered by minor emulation inaccuracies, but the stuttering is killing some games for me.


I'm in the same boat. I wish I could just blissfully ignore the issues, but once I see it I can't unsee it. Haven't touched the collection since G Darius dropped. I didn't bat an eyelash buying 5000 yen worth of eshop points to get GD from the Japan eshop whereas I felt like I semi-wasted 15 bucks after I downloaded Arcade Stadium pack 3. G Darius HD is about the same price as all 32 games on the CAS, but to me it still felt like money well spent. Gonna hold off and use my money to support companies like Hamster and M2. Really hope that after the Darius collections with M2 and the Space Invaders collection with Gotch, Taito will keep doing these higher quality collections.

For players who don't notice the issues and don't sink a lot of time into playing any one game for 1cc or score that value proposition is gonna be flipped. So I think for a certain type of player (provided they also don't just play these on MAME) this collection is still decent.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:45 am 


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I'm glad my stuff is finally out of storage so I can get back to playing Capcom Arcade Gallery and the JPS1 Capcom Generations 2 and 4 again. Not to mention Strider 1 and 2 (or is it Strider 2 and 1) on PSX.

I also bought G-Darius for PS4 since I ordered the Switch version of Darius Cozmic Revelations and I have Darius Burst Chronicle Saviors for PS4.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:18 am 


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Well, I did a credit feeding run through Progear and that confirms my suspicions that I'll never be beating this one. Worth sinking some time into and exploring, but this is pretty hard.

Battle Circuit is interesting. Seems pretty easy at the start, and the game is not stingy with health items. It really ramps up in the later levels though.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:48 am 


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Can't believe I finally own Progear :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:22 am 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
you impudent apostate.


:lol: Image

But yeah Marc how can you hate LOVABLE 1941 3; Try rubbing up on a wall, that'll sort it out. Give it a rub, that's what I always say. :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:51 pm 


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Marc wrote:
Mine patched last night, though I was too busy getting my ass kicked at various GnG games to really tell any differences.
I got my 19-- games mixed up. 1991 sucks, but 19XX and 1944 are both great. Bit weird Kai isn't included.


I actually love 1941 it was my favorite in the series next to now 19XX which I loved as well. 1944 is the one that didn't do it for me at all, found it very uninspired and slow. I've been playing 1941 since the Supergrafx days though and like it's whimsical nature. Although one of the stages in 1944 gave me a good laugh as the music is a straight rip off of ZZ Top, so I had to mention it in the vid. It's literally so close I am worried Youtube will hit me with a copyright claim thinking it's La Grange instead of the in game music :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:23 am 


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Varth is my new favourite shooter. Ideal mix of classic and manic for me and it looks absolutely glorious. I'm going to be spending a lot of time on this one.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:58 pm 


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Naiera wrote:
Can't believe I finally own Progear :shock:


I can't either. I have to say I'm enjoying this collection so far. Sure it has issues but its not as bad as some releases out there. Its mid-tier but with some patches they could improve things quite a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:22 am 


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That's the question! When are these patches coming, damn it!?
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:36 am 


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Rastan78 wrote:
Jonpachi wrote:
Argh. I'm usually not too bothered by minor emulation inaccuracies, but the stuttering is killing some games for me.


I'm in the same boat. I wish I could just blissfully ignore the issues, but once I see it I can't unsee it. Haven't touched the collection since G Darius dropped. I didn't bat an eyelash buying 5000 yen worth of eshop points to get GD from the Japan eshop whereas I felt like I semi-wasted 15 bucks after I downloaded Arcade Stadium pack 3. G Darius HD is about the same price as all 32 games on the CAS, but to me it still felt like money well spent. Gonna hold off and use my money to support companies like Hamster and M2. Really hope that after the Darius collections with M2 and the Space Invaders collection with Gotch, Taito will keep doing these higher quality collections.

For players who don't notice the issues and don't sink a lot of time into playing any one game for 1cc or score that value proposition is gonna be flipped. So I think for a certain type of player (provided they also don't just play these on MAME) this collection is still decent.


I'm kind of the other way TBH - given that this cost me £30.00 for the set, I'll find it hard to justify £50.00 on G-Darius, glorious as it looks.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:19 am 


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Tarma wrote:
Any word on when this is hitting the PS4?


Yeah, I'd rather skip it on Switch. I'm not a fan of it's cruddy lag issues.
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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:41 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:37 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2010
Posts: 128
They have already patched twice.

This is stuck in the confines of the RE engine so I really wouldnt expect any performance gains.

Imagine if this had cps3 as well :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:40 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2019
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Does anyone use the flip grip for vertical titles ? The orientation changes, which is great, but the controls don’t ?


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:07 pm 


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Did you try switching both options? Screen orientation and display orientation. A lot of games with Tate separate the controls or menus and the game screen into two options.


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 Post subject: Re: Capcom Arcade Stadium (NSW eshop): Progear, Giga Wing, 1
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:32 pm 



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I haven’t. Will give it a go, cheers Rastan.


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