Games You Just Can't Crack

[MathU]

I think most of us probably have or have had some of these at some point: games which we enjoy and have played for a long time but just can't seem to improve on for whatever reason. This is a support group thread.

I'll start. I've played Seibu Kaihatsu games for ages and I swear I don't know what it is that they must all have in common, but in just about every Raiden game, Raiden Fighters game, and Viper Phase 1, stage three or four has posed some kind of gigantic insurmountable wall for me. It is an extremely rare occasion that I manage to make it to stage four or five in any of these games and I've never gotten any further than that in most of them. Raiden Fighters Jet is the only game which I've actually gotten pretty far (beaten on simulation 35 and see Real Battle Phase 1 regularly). I guess I've also beaten Training mode in Raiden DX. Big deal.

I suspect in some of these my obsession with simultaneous score play is what's holding back on my basic progress, but I can't say I experience it to this magnitude in any other game or series of games. Maybe it's because I'm kind of a bomb-shy shooting fan, and Seibu's games are especially punishing to players trying to learn them without bombing? I feel like I should be way better at these iconic games than I actually am and it fills me with shame and frustration! What is that secret technique or perspective that allows one to become a master of Seibu?!

[Austin]

What is that secret technique or perspective that allows one to become a master of Seibu?!

Actually using your bombs.

[Jonpachi]

Game Paradise. I come back to it and put some work into it here-and-there, but mastery eludes me and I never seem to get better at it.

[schnuth]

When I first saw the topic of this thread I assumed it was about piracy. LOL. Carry on.

[STGAlmond]

When I first saw the topic of this thread I assumed it was about piracy. LOL. Carry on.

I saw the thread title and author and thought this was about to be some drama .


I don't do much more than low scoring or survival runs. Only game I've put much time into without a 1cc is Ketsui. I just seem to have a really hard time with this game yet still like to play it.

[copy-paster]

Ketsui still kicked my ass. I don't know what did I do wrong, I even have quite many of savestates for each stages, bosses, and difficult parts.

Game Paradise. I come back to it and put some work into it here-and-there, but mastery eludes me and I never seem to get better at it.

This was one of my nightmares. Cutesy design and atmosphere, but everything after first two stages are abysmal. I do like the stage 2 boss though hahaha best thing in the game alone.

[el_rika]

Pink Sweets. A complete mistery for me. Feels so cluncky at first glance. I'm convinced it's not actually the case though, knowing Cave's impecable record and seeing how many great players love it.

Will properly dive into it in the near future

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Ketsui still kicked my ass. I don't know what did I do wrong, I even have quite many of savestates for each stages, bosses, and difficult parts.

Ketsui is this for me. It has the hardest 1UP item to get reliably in any CAVE game for me. I'm always screwing up the stage 3 midboss by missing a turret or dying to it. I'm slowly getting closer to the clear but it feels like even though I'm getting near the end of Stage 5 I'm a long way off. I still have no idea how to handle the downward section of stage 5.

[Rastan78]

This was Dimahoo for me. Man I love that game, but it just felt like it was too much for my skill. Got to be one of the hardest 1ccs without a 2nd loop. A last boss that is no frickin joke. Then you add in trying to read the item catalogue up in the corner and flip through the pages. I'm sure I also got too caught up in the scoring tricks too early. I even owned the PCB and still couldn't really hang with it.

Maybe some day. Maybe it will eventually get a port. That would be awesome.

[FRO]

I will jokingly say most shmups, but honestly, my bigger problem is that I hit a wall and move on, rather than sticking with a game. But for games I've stayed more consistent with, I'm also going to say Ketsui. Once I hit stage 3, all bets are off. I know my propensity to try and learn scoring makes a difference, but the game rewards aggressive play, even w/o score consideration, so some of it is my mental block regarding some bullet patterns, particularly the criss-crossing blue & pink bullets from the big ship. I need to get a consistent stage 3 up to just before that and do a save state, but reaching that point is difficult enough.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

This is quickly becoming a "we suck at Ketsui" emotional support thread. Man it's a tough game.

[banjoted]

I will jokingly say most shmups, but honestly, my bigger problem is that I hit a wall and move on, rather than sticking with a game. But for games I've stayed more consistent with, I'm also going to say Ketsui. Once I hit stage 3, all bets are off. I know my propensity to try and learn scoring makes a difference, but the game rewards aggressive play, even w/o score consideration, so some of it is my mental block regarding some bullet patterns, particularly the criss-crossing blue & pink bullets from the big ship. I need to get a consistent stage 3 up to just before that and do a save state, but reaching that point is difficult enough.

Am feeling you, bro. I think one of the problems I have is that having recently finally sorted myself a full MAME romset, I've got such a huge library of shmups to catch up on and bathe in that I don't ever stick with any one title long enough.

[MathU]

Actually using your bombs.

But... What if I need them for later?

This was Dimahoo for me.

I'm saving my first single-credit clear of Dimahoo for that special occasion when I finally manage a complete treasure set. I'd have beaten it many times over by now if not for that obsession.

[minion]

Both Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun fall into this category for me. In both cases I get obsessed with trying to keep my chain and get really frustrated. Love those games, but playing them 'optimally' is a challenge I'll probably never be up for.

[floralcateyes]

I can understand survival and score play in bullet hell games without too much trouble. I can usually see what I still need to learn and experiment with in weird doujin games. I'm able to make rough routes for more traditional shmups that call for them. Etc.

But for the life of my I just can't seem to get console shmups. 16-bit and earlier. Stuff like the Thunder Force series or the Aleste series. Maybe it's because I'm emulating them, but I don't have this problem with emulated arcade stuff. Maybe it's because I don't have their manuals at hand or something. Dunno what it is that prevents things from clicking in my idiot brain when it comes to those games. Even when I get farther than is usual for me, it still feels like I'm missing something critical.

Recca and the 3-/5-minute caravan modes of some of these games are the exception. But otherwise? I just can't seem to get things to stick. Which saddens me, as the aforementioned Thunder Force and Aleste series seem really fun...

[mycophobia]

truxton 2. i came within frames of beating the stage 6 boss before game overing once. after that i just cant find the motivation

[scrilla4rella]

For me it's Dangun Feveron. I've had the PCB since 2005. Also bought the Shot Triggers release. Played them both a bunch but not enough I guess because I always get demolished in the beginning of the third stage. Of course the third stage is always a wall in Cave games but I feel like I'd have made more progress in other releases with the time put into this. I've 1CC'd Mushi and easier games like Deathsmiles 1 & 2, DDPDFK, normal mode Bakraid, and Batrider. I've made waay more progress in Ketsui and Progear with less time then I have in Dangun. I don't know what it is, maybe the faster default movement speed or maybe the legacy of balls-hard Tatsujin is alive and well in this one

[scrilla4rella]

But for the life of my I just can't seem to get console shmups. 16-bit and earlier. Stuff like the Thunder Force series or the Aleste series. Maybe it's because I'm emulating them, but I don't have this problem with emulated arcade stuff.

Give Musha some more time to gel, if you haven't already. The flickering can be a bit distracting. I was pretty underwhelmed when I first played it back in the day, especially after hearing all the hype, but now I'm a total Compile whore .

Have you tried Gate (and Lords) of Thunder? Those were some of my favorites when I was first discovering 16-bit shmups. Fire Shark (Same! Same! Same!) on Genesis/MD is another go-to that was often recommended around here when I first logged on. Kyukyoku Tiger on PC Engine is another console favorite of mine. Both of these are very arcadey.

[floralcateyes]

Give Musha some more time to gel, if you haven't already. The flickering can be a bit distracting. I was pretty underwhelmed when I first played it back in the day, especially after hearing all the hype, but now I'm a total Compile whore .

Have you tried Gate (and Lords) of Thunder? Those were some of my favorites when I was first discovering 16-bit shmups. Fire Shark (Same! Same! Same!) on Genesis/MD is another go-to that was often recommended around here when I first logged on. Kyukyoku Tiger on PC Engine is another console favorite of mine. Both of these are very arcadey.

Have yet to try Gate or Lords, will check them out. And I foolishly ruled out the arcade ports, thinking I could just try out the originals, when they're distinct enough to be their own thing. Didn't even know the MD port of Same was highly regarded. Thanks for the recommendations! Will stick with Musha as well, while trying out the other Aleste games (Super Aleste looks cool).

[finisherr]

Ketsui is a hard game but I think most shmup players can clear the first loop with practice. Play the game a lot and consistently and you'll clear it.

[copy-paster]

Ketsui is a hard game but I think most shmup players can clear the first loop with practice. Play the game a lot and consistently and you'll clear it.

I do, and result still the same.

[finisherr]

Ketsui is a hard game but I think most shmup players can clear the first loop with practice. Play the game a lot and consistently and you'll clear it.

I do, and result still the same.

The thing about Ketsui is that you actually get a lot of bombs. So, if you play purely for survival it's actually not too bad if you focus on the parts of the game that you find challenging. If you're playing the PS4 port I think you can actually save state. Although it might not be as fun, it can help you get past walls in your gameplay. Every time you play the game try to learn from your mistakes and what went well. If something went well, try to reproduce it in your next runs. I'd also recommend not trying to copy high scoring runs.

[Vexorg]

Batrider. I've enjoyed Battle Garegga and Battle Bakraid, but could never get much of anywhere with Batrider.

[MathU]

What characters are you using? Can you get the highway stage 1up consistently? In my experience the highway stage was a roadblock for me at various times. Partly due to wanting to control the adaptive difficulty control just right, and also due to the trickiness of keeping a medal chain on that stage while juggling everything else. In the past I've made the mistake of attempting to grab both the hidden 1up and the first possible 1up for skipping three giant bomb icons one after another, with carefully timed suicides between them... While simultaneously trying to avoid special power-ups which trigger more bosses at the end of the stage. And if you're scoring well this can even be a confluence of three extra lives to manage with planned suicides and recoveries in a single short stage!

But it turns out that unless you've been collecting a ton of power-ups you don't need or doing hardcore boss grinding in the early stages, the adaptive difficulty reduction of timing suicides one right after the other with both the hidden 1up and the 1up from skipping giant bomb icons is actually wasted at that point in the game--you'll actually bottom out the difficulty modifier and won't get the full reduction benefits. It makes much more sense in terms of difficulty management to skip only two giant bomb icons and time the 1up for missing the third from the tank near the beginning of Zenovia City. That also makes the highway stage easier to manage and gives you some much-needed breathing room in the next stage after its bosses.

[Rastan78]

People were mentioning bomb usage on Seibu games. On the Raiden Fighters series you need them to get all the secret bonuses etc. Other than that use them as much as you can. They will save your ass from those fast moving bullets. Also dying early will drop the rank and slow the bullets down. I remember I got my first clear of Raiden Fighters 2 by dying twice early on and the going on one life through the rest.

Mathu have you tried using a slave ship? It feels a little cheap bc the slaves are a little bit OP, but not so much that they make the game easy mode. Playing Raiden Fighters 2 (the best one IMHO) with slave or miclus is especially fun. For some reason that train stage is one of my all time favorite levels in any shmup. You can always move to a harder to use ship later once you know the game well with a slave ship.

[MathU]

Yeah I don't use the slave ships, feels too much like cheating to me.

[Rastan78]

Yeah, I hear that. I always equate ship choice or route choice in shmups with picking a character in fighting games. And I always like picking the uphill battle character like Zangief. Playing V route in Darius Gaiden is like playing Ryu in SF2. Everyone and their brother can play Ryu. More satisfying to not take the easy way.

That being said while the Slave ships make Raiden Fighters easier, this is offset by the extremely high skill ceiling of the games. I think mostly this has to do with the bullet grazing mechanic. The Slave's small hitbox makes survival easier, but it also opens up the possibilities of more extreme bullet grazing. Watching a really high level replay of Raiden Fighters 2 with the Slave is pretty impressive.

[Blinge]

Gunbird

Ketsui was easier....

[Queen Charlene]

i'm really awful at Batrider and i don't know why! something about that game just doesn't seem to make sense to me. i don't feel nearly as confounded by Garegga or even Bakraid, but i always feel like i'm floundering in Batrider.

also +1 for the "awful at Ketsui" gang

[Lord British]

ESP.Rade for me, but it's fun for the small amount of time I last

Varth is one I always get excited for yet 10 min later I'm playing another game