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 Post subject: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:34 am 



Joined: 27 Aug 2018
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So the daioujou thread made me curious...

Which games do you know that also have asymmetricat hitboxes?

Most ships in Battle Garegga have, from what I've read here on this forum Viper Phase 1 should also be on the list. I'm not sure if the ds version of Ketsui counts as well.

Also I'm wondering if this is an intended gameplay element or the product of too much overtime at work.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:25 pm 


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Battle Bakraid has some. The hit box is the canopy where the pilot would sit. For some ships its near the front or back. One ship (army green and shaped like a disc, can't remember the name) it's way at the absolute front of the nose. Its counterintuitive because you'd think for a perfectly round ship the hit box would be right in the center like a bullseye.

A lot of Raizing games have a hitbox viewing mode in the service menu on the PCB.

A related thing is how some games have varying hit boxes. For example in some of the Raiden games your hit box gets wider when you get towards fully powered up. So its narrower when you're starting off with a weak weapon. A nice touch when it comes to keeping the game balanced.

Playing Darius Gaiden had me wondering if your hit box is bigger when you have a shield than it is once you lose it. Seems like it might be that way to me, but it's a bit hard to tell for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:05 pm 



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Rastan78 wrote:
Battle Bakraid has some. The hit box is the canopy where the pilot would sit. For some ships its near the front or back. One ship (army green and shaped like a disc, can't remember the name) it's way at the absolute front of the nose. Its counterintuitive because you'd think for a perfectly round ship the hit box would be right in the center like a bullseye.

A lot of Raizing games have a hitbox viewing mode in the service menu on the PCB.

A related thing is how some games have varying hit boxes. For example in some of the Raiden games your hit box gets wider when you get towards fully powered up. So its narrower when you're starting off with a weak weapon. A nice touch when it comes to keeping the game balanced.

Playing Darius Gaiden had me wondering if your hit box is bigger when you have a shield than it is once you lose it. Seems like it might be that way to me, but it's a bit hard to tell for sure.


At least that kind of hitbox still sounds logical to me. But with Garegga and Daioujou WL some of the hitboxes are more to the left or right side of the center.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:13 pm 


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Assuming the ship design is symmetrical and the hitbox is in the horizontal center, if your game has a hitbox width that's an even number of pixels in width but your sprite size is an odd number, the hitbox has to be offcenter. Normally, you'd design a game with something like a 2 wide x 4 tall hitbox with a ship that has an even number of pixels so you can position the hitbox in the game's true center. But let's say the game artists have drawn the ship sprites and they have an odd number of pixels in the width and the designers decide for balance the hitbox width needs to be 2 pixels x 4 instead of the 1 x 3 originally planned. You now have to have the hitbox off-center. I'd imagine they just roll with it instead of redrawing the sprite and every single frame of animation. The opposite happens too, where the ship width is an even number of pixels but an odd number for the hitbox and therefore the hitbox has to be offcenter by 1 pixel.

Because the hitbox size can change in playtesting, where they're deciding on how to balance the game, that's how this sort of thing can happen. It can be pretty time consuming to redraw the sprites to address this. You've also got examples like Xeno Fighters R, a fangame that uses the original sprites from the games but has a 2x2 size hitbox for every ship, so all the ships that have an odd number of pixels in the width are off-center to the left.
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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:23 pm 


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Thats strange. I never knew that. Maybe it would have to do with the artwork for the ship being an odd number of pixels. For example if you were putting a hitbox that has an even number of pixels onto a ship whose art is an odd number of pixels wide, the hitbox would have to sit just to the right or left. If it's off by more than that then it would seem to be some kind of human error?

Edit: See above. BareknuckleRoo your post wasn't there yet as I was typing mine lol. You gave a good explanation for this.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:13 pm 



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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Assuming the ship design is symmetrical and the hitbox is in the horizontal center, if your game has a hitbox width that's an even number of pixels in width but your sprite size is an odd number, the hitbox has to be offcenter. Normally, you'd design a game with something like a 2 wide x 4 tall hitbox with a ship that has an even number of pixels so you can position the hitbox in the game's true center. But let's say the game artists have drawn the ship sprites and they have an odd number of pixels in the width and the designers decide for balance the hitbox width needs to be 2 pixels x 4 instead of the 1 x 3 originally planned. You now have to have the hitbox off-center. I'd imagine they just roll with it instead of redrawing the sprite and every single frame of animation. The opposite happens too, where the ship width is an even number of pixels but an odd number for the hitbox and therefore the hitbox has to be offcenter by 1 pixel.

Because the hitbox size can change in playtesting, where they're deciding on how to balance the game, that's how this sort of thing can happen. It can be pretty time consuming to redraw the sprites to address this. You've also got examples like Xeno Fighters R, a fangame that uses the original sprites from the games but has a 2x2 size hitbox for every ship, so all the ships that have an odd number of pixels in the width are off-center to the left.


In the case of Battle Garegga I'm pretty sure that it has to do with designing the ship first and then having to place a hitbox. With Daioujou White Labe i'ts diffucult to say but plausible. This would actually explain why the hitbox of type b shrunk in Black Label. They might just have removed a pixel. But they also increased the hitbox size of type a, which is weird.

I've never imagined that there seem to be several games out there where this phenomenon accurs. Well, only regarding shmups. Not talking about modern games... where you can be glad if you at least have a hitbox.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:34 pm 


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Indeed BareKnuckleRoo.
If its only 1 pixel, you can ignore it, it is not really asymertrical.
Maximum usage of all bits is more the case.
Only in a 320x240 game you notice.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:18 pm 


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Rastan78 wrote:
Playing Darius Gaiden had me wondering if your hit box is bigger when you have a shield than it is once you lose it. Seems like it might be that way to me, but it's a bit hard to tell for sure.

Indeed it is, and there is even an intermediate hitbox size when you only have a sliver of shield. There some boss attacks that are difficult to impossible to dodge with a full shield but are manageable without it because the hitbox is smaller. Hysteric Empress's jumping attack from off the screen is one of them.
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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:24 pm 


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Rastan78 wrote:
Playing Darius Gaiden had me wondering if your hit box is bigger when you have a shield than it is once you lose it. Seems like it might be that way to me, but it's a bit hard to tell for sure.


Games with shields handle this differently depending on the game. Gradius V has a full aura shield that's much larger than the ship's hitbox size, and every time the shield takes a hit it shrinks, and so does the hitbox accordingly. The overall shield hitbox size is several times larger than the absolutely tiny ship hitbox (the cockpit).

SideLine has a 3 hit shield but the ship hitbox is always the same small size, no matter how many hits your shield can take. Your shield is essentially a buffer of extra lives that allows you to take hits without losing weapons.
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Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:55 pm 


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MathU wrote:
Rastan78 wrote:
Playing Darius Gaiden had me wondering if your hit box is bigger when you have a shield than it is once you lose it. Seems like it might be that way to me, but it's a bit hard to tell for sure.

Indeed it is, and there is even an intermediate hitbox size when you only have a sliver of shield. There some boss attacks that are difficult to impossible to dodge with a full shield but are manageable without it because the hitbox is smaller. Hysteric Empress's jumping attack from off the screen is one of them.


Ah, thanks. I noticed it on Curious Chandelier as well. It has that chaser grenade attack. Sometimes it seems regardless of what you do you might take a hit even moving away from a grenade. But without shield you won't take a hit in the same situation.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:59 pm 


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I'm pretty sure there's a safe spot right under the middle of Hysteric Empress when it lands. Just a little left of center and a little up from the bottom of the screen. Just picture him tea bagging you when he lands and squats.

http://imgur.com/a/6OZDWJW

This pic is right after the jumping attack. The shield doesn't take a hit. That's definitely some hit box insanity right there.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:07 pm 



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heli wrote:
Indeed BareKnuckleRoo.
If its only 1 pixel, you can ignore it, it is not really asymertrical.
Maximum usage of all bits is more the case.
Only in a 320x240 game you notice.


What's the actual resolution for games like Garegga, Daioujou and such? I thought it was pretty low.


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:51 pm 


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Rastan78 wrote:
This pic is right after the jumping attack. The shield doesn't take a hit. That's definitely some hit box insanity right there.

Well I did say difficult to impossible. In real fights it can be tricky to get as close as needed to the floor there without bumping it consistently when you have a full shield. Any spot on the floor will do, by the way. You just need to pick a spot and stick to it, since where the boss lands after the jump depends on your position. The best way to get really, really close to the floor without touching it there is to hug one of the edges of the screen while you move downward (your vertical movement vector is reduced when flying diagonally, allowing more precision). But even then it can be challenging to do consistently under pressure. Another reason to hug one of the screen edges is to set Hysteric Empress in a favorable position for its next attack: when its body is partly off the edge of the screen it won't fire any lasers at you from that side.

Another example that comes to mind is Odious Trident's tail exhaust that it tries to corner you with. It always sucks up most of your shield at the start of the fight because the space is too small for a full-sized shield hitbox.
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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:48 am 


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That first tail laser attack from odious trident i know can be dodged without getting a hit to your shield. He kind of tracks you at first so if you're already camping as low as you can on the screen before he starts tracking you, he'll shimmy up and down a couple times and then lock to a position almost off the bottom edge of the screen. Then he does his thing where he tries to ram you before doing the tail laser. If you got him into the right spot there will be just enough room once he pushes you all the way up top.

Its similar to what can be done to the stage 3 mid boss to make him easier to capture.

That jump attack from the crab boss sounds like the kind of thing that's easy to learn/hard to master. Especially once you factor in the nerves that come in once you're on a good run. It's maybe a couple pixels of leeway up or down and thats it. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:25 am 


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:03 am 


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heli wrote:
Only in a 320x240 game you notice.


Good thing there aren't any noteworthy 240p shooters XD


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:33 pm 


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Everyone knows the best shmups are all running at 4K, 30 fps. That photo realism though


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 Post subject: Re: More Hitbox Însanity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:50 am 



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Quote:
your vertical movement vector is reduced when flying diagonally, allowing more precision


Good to know, thanks for the tip.

Quote:
That first tail laser attack from odious trident i know can be dodged without getting a hit to your shield. He kind of tracks you at first so if you're already camping as low as you can on the screen before he starts tracking you, he'll shimmy up and down a couple times and then lock to a position almost off the bottom edge of the screen. Then he does his thing where he tries to ram you before doing the tail laser. If you got him into the right spot there will be just enough room once he pushes you all the way up top.


Exactly, it can be dodged consistently 100% of the time following that technique.

Quote:
Its similar to what can be done to the stage 3 mid boss to make him easier to capture.


Well that one is trickier, on zone D you need to rush as fast as you can to get the red power up, and sometimes you just can't do the quickcapture just because the red power up spawns at an unwanted place. Also it can't be done if you jacked up the rank too high with either of the second bosses, but that is only when playing without rapidfire.


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