G-Darius MAME underclocking (slowdown accuracy)

[KAI]

I recently got a new PC I started playing some 3D games on MAME like crazy, specially those made by Taito.

What I noticed (and read) is that most of their drivers for these 3D hardwares are still a wip, and for example some JC System games need cpu overcloking them to play them at correct speed, and FX-1 games like G-Darius lack any kind slowdowns from the original hardware.

By enabling cheats on mame and messing with the slider options, I tried underclocking the main cpu of the FX-1B to see if I could replicate the original speed on G-Darius, and for my surprise I got nearly identical slowdowns compared to pcb footage I've seen on YT.
This still needs a lot of testing, but I think underclocking it around the 80-85% range should do the work.

Not sure if this is a bad or a good thing, since I think the original game speed sucks and some stages and boss fights are in super slowmo, but having more accurated emulation is kinda neat.

[EmperorIng]

I think this is a pretty good thing to document. 3D games seem so finicky in MAME but I'm glad there's efforts like this to parse it all out.

It makes me want to make a side-by-side comparison video with MAME (with underclocking), PCB footage, the upcoming M2 port, and PS1/PS2 for the ultimate comparison. If I had infinite amounts of free time...

[Rastan78]

[quote="EmperorIng"]It makes me want to make a side-by-side comparison video with MAME (with underclocking), PCB footage, the upcoming M2 port, and PS1/PS2 for the ultimate comparison. If I had infinite amounts of free time...[/quote]

That would be very cool. I hope you find the time. We will hold you to that and be waiting for your video now lol

I'll be curious to see if M2 nail the emulation on the new release, or it will have to be patched extensively like what happened with Gaiden. Gaiden as it was first released on switch is probably the worst port M2 has ever done, although now its great. The way bombs would not always work was especially frustrating. And it seems like G Darius may be a challenging one to emulate as well.

KAI would you say the game is more challenging on mame running without slowdowns? And would you say when underclocking the general game speed is still the same when the game is not slowing down?

[KAI]

It's a whooole lot easier, I tried the same route I 1CCed last week with underclock and I nomissed the game.

In case you want to see a comparison between ports and pcb, these vids are timemarked on that section of the 1st stage that has a major slowdowns

M2 port | PS port | PCB

[Rastan78]

Cool, thanks! Interesting thats its easier without slowdown. I guess there are games where the slowdown works for you and those where it messes you up.

On a side note Thunder Force IV on switch is recent example of a game that let's you toggle slowdown on and off. I'd have to play it again, but I seem to remember that there were some parts that were easier or more consistent without slowdown and some sections where the increased bullet speed did make it a bit harder. I'm no pro tho. Only made it to the last stage, so not quite 1cc. There is no separation in the leaderboards, so I'd say no slowdown is the way to go. The game is not comparable to the mega drive original anyway points wise as they seemed to have removed point values from infinitely milkable enemies.

Congrats on G Darius no miss! Is there a big difference in challenge on the various routes? I think I'll try to clear it too when the port is out. Still have my old PS copy from 20 years ago but no PS console lol. I cleared Gaiden a bit ago and am going for no miss also. I can no miss everything in training mode so its just a matter of time right!?

[MathU]

Huh, it always did seem like some bosses were quite unfairly cheap over MAME. Now I feel like a superhero for single-credit clearing Version 2 a few times without realizing it was missing intended slowdown. I just presumed the Playstation port was that bad.

[Rastan78]

I got confused. I thought KAI meant it was easier without slowdown at full speed

[copy-paster]

IMO Ver. 2's increased difficulty were just cheap, vanilla G-darius is already a challenging game. There was a rumor that vanilla version didn't made operators much income back in the day, so Ver 2 relased to fix this issue.

[Rastan78]

I always heard the PS1 hardware was close to Taito Fx1 so it seems like it shouldn't be thaaat much slower. Supposedly PS1 is too slow and PS2 is too fast. Maybe G Darius HD will be the goldilocks? In that case it might make a good point of comparison for tuning the clock speed in mame barring access to an actual PCB.

[Rastan78]

IMO Ver. 2's increased difficulty were just cheap, vanilla G-darius is already a challenging game. There was a rumor that vanilla version didn't made operators much income back in the day, so Ver 2 relased to fix this issue.

From what I heard the Ver 2 changes were really unpopular in the day and led most people to stick with the original. It was like let's just pretend ver 2 never happened.

[KAI]

Of course the game is easier with slowdowns. The speed isn't the same at all when you underclocking it, some latter stages run at almost half the speed if you have max shot power.

You can hear the casters saying Ver.2 it's a hidoi kusoge on that mikado stream I liked.

[Rastan78]

Seems like their balance changes were just too strict and unfair, taking away the fun of high scoring routes that worked in ver 1.
I like that they weren't afraid to experiment though. If you look at the progression from Darius II through Gaiden to G, they really pushed the series forward in a short space. Each of the games really has its own feel. At least compared to a lot of venerable shmup series that tend to stick to their own formula very conservatively from game to game.

[MathU]

If you look at the progression from Darius II through Gaiden to G, they really pushed the series forward in a short space.

Gotta disagree there, beyond the laser and capture system itself G-Darius was a substantial step backwards on several fronts. It's like Taito was embarrassed of the power-up and mechanical progress epitomized by Gaiden or something. Or more cynically, perhaps they found that stuff to be too much work to design and balance in Gaiden and decided to take a break on that front (considering all the resources wasted on 3D modeling in that era).

[Rastan78]

I always thought of G Darius as having a good usage of 3D graphics. It definitely gives the game its own atmosphere.

[To Far Away Times]

G-Darius has those cool cut scenes to introduce the bosses. Man, that game oozes personality.

G-Darius and R-Type Delta are the two early 3D rendered shmups that I felt really took advantage of the new 3D hardware and were better for it. Einhander too, to some extent, though I don't like that game nearly as much as the other two.

Most of the shmups from that era I think would have been better if they were done with sprites instead.

[Rastan78]

Totally agree about Delta and G Darius as good examples of 3D done right for the era. Radiant Silvergun and the 3D Ray series games hold up pretty well too. Brave Blade I'd put in the not too bad category. But not as nice as Raizings 2D graphics for sure.

Also agree about Einhander not being as great. It was mystifying how this game was held up as a benchmark of quality in the genre when Delta wasn't paid nearly as much attention. Probably the Squaresoft name got the attention of people who didn't normally play shmups due to the extreme popularity at the time of Final Fantasy VII. No one could write a review of another shmup without placing it a notch below Einhander . . At least until Ikaruga came out and was the next casual shmup player critical darling.

BTW I came so close to getting no miss on all down Z route on Gaiden last night. Took a death 2 seconds before the final boss kicked the bucket. Thinking i could point blank him and he was close enough to go down. Noooooo

Got 9.5 M but it shoulda coulda been over 10 M

[Bassa-Bassa]

So does MAME emulate G-Darius without glitches, including sound? What about other G-Net/FX-1 games?

[KAI]

FX-1 sound was fixed in MAME 0.201 (together with all the ZN based hardwares). Raystorm and G-darius don't have any noticeable glitches afaik.

the GN games have various glitches, and Raycrisis still crashes if the last boss does a specific attack.

[Despatche]

The Darius games have actually not changed fundamentally at all. They are almost all wildly-unbalanced games that throw entirely too many enemies at you.

G Darius powering up kinda stinks, though it's not nearly as bad as Gaiden's disgustingly broken system, or Darius/II almost always screwing your credit if you make the mistake of dying. It's quite the improvement actually.

IMO Ver. 2's increased difficulty were just cheap, vanilla G-darius is already a challenging game. There was a rumor that vanilla version didn't made operators much income back in the day, so Ver 2 relased to fix this issue.

The income issue happened because the game was already too difficult. G Darius chased people out of the arcades, whereas Gradius III did not. Ver.2 was created specifically for the people that stuck around.

It was this sad outcome specifically that led to Taito scaling down their arcade output.

[Rastan78]

The income issue happened because the game was already too difficult. G Darius chased people out of the arcades, whereas Gradius III did not. Ver.2 was created specifically for the people that stuck around.

It was this sad outcome specifically that led to Taito scaling down their arcade output.

It's also hard to overstate the impact of the fighting game craze in the early to mid 90s. I remember visiting Japan in summer '96. Every arcade I saw was packed to the gills with Street Fighter Zero 2 cabinets with other genres like shmups and run n guns relegated to the back. Probably by the time of Gaiden in 94 it was already seen that shmups with any kind of large budget were not really viable. So you saw the more niche shmup developers like Raizing, Seibu, Cave and Psikyo pick up where bigger companies like Taito, Konami and Capcom left off.

You've gotta put in perspective that Gradius III was a brutal game, but it also came out 8 years before G Darius and 2 years before Street Fighter 2. This was back when shmups were still drawing a lot more players in general.

That being said taking a difficult game and patching it to be even harder was not a smart move.

[Despatche]

Fighting games were important but they were kinda scaling down around then too. This was the late '90s, when things like Street Fighter III were coming out and not doing as well as previous games, and when SNK was in the beginnings of a hostile takeover. There wasn't a whole lot besides them at the time, and it was all smaller stuff like Asura Blade/Buster and the earlier Guilty Gears.

Much as I would like to draw such a line between Gradius III and G Darius, I can't. Raiden was not affected much by Street Fighter II's existence, and may have even benefited from it. Dodonpachi was a very big deal, even in 1997. Something else happened beyond Street Fighter II, and it's something that hit more than just shmups. I don't think it was rhythm games either, as this was right before rhythm games.

It had to have been something in that 1993~1995 slot. It is somehow not even the move to 3D, as Japan had a greater respect for the differences between 2D and 3D than Americans did.

[Rastan78]

There was also the increasing complexity of both shmups and fighting games around that time. I think Raiden Fighters was 95 or so. Now the game is asking you to think about bullet grazing, hidden secrets all over etc.

GG or 3S are not easy fighting games to pick up. I saw so many players who were more beginner level just try 3S, get crushed by parrying, and they just gave up on the game instantly. It made them feel like they suck at the game.

[MathU]

I think maybe it depends on which entry in the Guilty Gear series you're talking about. I got into the games with Accent Core and I found its depth layered like an onion to be highly approachable. The game lures you in with basic flashy things like 50% meter super moves and 25% meter special moves, and as you stick around you begin to pick up others like faultless defense, dead-angle attacks, and roman cancels, and then finally progressing into force roman cancels, instant blocking, slashback and eventually really tricky stuff like jump installing.

[Rastan78]

I only got really into Xrd. Overall picked up the game fast, but the things that seemed daunting were learning how to block well and switching characters.

I'm a total 3S guy since way back. That game is the reason I haven't really played shmups in forever. So I could go on about fighting games all day, but I won't derail this topic further.

But I think those games fit in with G Darius and other shmups around those time in the sense that even if they weren't really that hard to learn for people who put in some time, they gave beginners this sense of uh what? It was part of both genres becoming a little too technical for the more casual player base. Games like Strikers 1945 2 were successful at that time bc they still had that old school pick up and play simplicity the first few stages. Don't know how many times I saw a Strikers cab in a bowling alley or bar back in the day.

[KAI]

Ok, G-Darius HD vids are out. As I thought, 85% underclocking is incredibly similar to this port (and pcb).
https://youtu.be/rOm91_PFxpA?t=928

Good to know I wasn't hallucinating about this.

[Bassa-Bassa]

This is always interesting.