CAVE 68k MiSTer beta core

[it290]

Apologies if this has already been posted.

https://github.com/nullobject/Arcade-Cave_MiSTer

Beta core, runs DDP, no sound yet though.

[XtraSmiley]

This is amazing, and I'm SUPER excited.

Having said that, much like software emulation, I think arcade cores on MiSTer are still bound by what the devs can figure out via the outputs of the custom chips, so it's yet still not a 100% re-creation. If it were, it would help develop recreation custom chips that may be failing in many PCBs.

Still. Super stoked to see this and can't wait for sound and more CAVE goodness at a price more people can afford!

[cave hermit]

If you have a MiSTer and want to get in on this, $5 at Null Object's Patreon page gets you beta access.

Of course keep in mind that it is very much an early beta, the game itself technically runs, but no sound obviously, (allegedly) inaccurate slowdown, graphical anomalies, and occasional crashes. Also scaler features like screen rotation currently don't work, so you'll need a tate monitor, and direct video / the 15 khz to 31khz scandoubler aren't yet implemented so you'll have to use a config override to activate the VGA scaler (which adds latency, negating the benefit of VGA) if you're using a HDMI to VGA dongle.

All that said, this project is very promising, and could very well be the next best thing to a PCB if polished enough.

Also Null Object has a Dangun Feveron PCB and has stated he plans to work on that after Dodonpachi.

[FRO]

I've been following the progress of this as I see updates on Twitter. Very exciting! I wish I could get the I/O board for my MiSTer, but it was apparently back-ordered. That would be reason enough to run dual output, so I could get the signal to a CRT for playing, while having it still output via HDMI for streaming or capture.

[it290]

bump — The core is out of beta and was publicly released today. Get shmuppin'!

[XtraSmiley]

bump — The core is out of beta and was publicly released today. Get shmuppin'!

It plays and looks great to me, but I've only played the PCB one time.

Can some experts weigh in on accuracy?

[el_rika]

Is there any benefit to this compared to emulation?

[Johnpv]

Is there any benefit to this compared to emulation?

No matter how good software emulation is, I believe there is always going to be at least 1 frame of added lag. This being a hardware solution won't have that. It should be the most accurate way to play it outside of the actual PCB. Though it should be noted that the no added lag is for the analog output. For the HDMI side of things if the hdmi equipment (monitor, tv, receiver, switch etc) you're using doesn't like out of spec refresh rates you'll need to use the video mode that can add some lag but makes the refresh 60hz. I don't know how much it would be in this case, some one with more knowledge than me would have to chime in here.

[it290]

Is there any benefit to this compared to emulation?

In addition to what Johnpv said, you also get easy, accurate analog output without having to futz around with a lot of crt driver stuff.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Guys, check the Groovymame forums (be patient with the search there, though), next-frame response has already been achieved... It's a complex subject (it depends on when the input gets polled originally, for starters) and I'm no expert, but the frame delay feature and powerful enough hardware do the job.

The DDP core was published without slowdowns accuracy, it seems:

https://twitter.com/moftsoft/status/1270654910648823809

So it's likely it's even less accurate than Mame currently. Fortunately, it seems wait states should be easier to fix under FPGA, but I'm worried about the "I don't want perfect to be the enemy of the good" statement - that's been Mame devs' premise since the early days and after all this time we've learnt that it just means "quantity over quality".

[dreadnought]

For the HDMI side of things if the hdmi equipment (monitor, tv, receiver, switch etc) you're using doesn't like out of spec refresh rates you'll need to use the video mode that can add some lag but makes the refresh 60hz. I don't know how much it would be in this case, some one with more knowledge than me would have to chime in here.

When using HDMI output the image must be scaled up to fit the higher resolutions, which requires additional processing. The MiSTer scaler has options which impact its latency. Using vsync_adjust=2 in the ini file will result in about 4 scanlines of latency, while 0 or 1 will result in up to roughly 2 frames of latency, with the added advantage of being more compatible with displays.

In addition your own television or monitor may introduce more latency, but this varies by device and no definite number can be given on that here.

In summary, if lag is critical to you, it's best to play on a CRT using a recommended and widely-tested USB controller. Some users have tested and ranked USB controllers by performance; you can see their results here.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... -Explained

I don't know how it compares to a PC latency. I use MiSTer with CRTs and it's no doubt the best option in this case: lag free and also fuss free when it comes to configuring: you just change a few values and it works. The only problem is game availability: currently it supports only a fraction of roms which MAME offers, which is why I also have a crtemudriver PC setup.

[cave hermit]

Guys, check the Groovymame forums (be patient with the search there, though), next-frame response has already been achieved... It's a complex subject (it depends on when the input gets polled originally, for starters) and I'm no expert, but the frame delay feature and powerful enough hardware do the job.

The DDP core was published without slowdowns accuracy, it seems:

https://twitter.com/moftsoft/status/1270654910648823809

So it's likely it's even less accurate than Mame currently. Fortunately, it seems wait states should be easier to fix under FPGA, but I'm worried about the "I don't want perfect to be the enemy of the good" statement - that's been Mame devs' premise since the early days and after all this time we've learnt that it just means "quantity over quality".

Please keep in mind those statements regarding the DDP core were made about 7 months ago, during which time the core has undergone considerable maturation.

[it290]

I've played several hours of the public DDP core at this point. I don't have a PCB to compare to, but I overall I have to say it compares favorably to both Saturn and PS1 versions, and is far and away the most convenient way to get DoDonPachi on your CRT. The dev has already started to work on the rest of the Cave 68k lineup and Dangun is likely coming next.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I've played several hours of the public DDP core at this point. I don't have a PCB to compare to, but I overall I have to say it compares favorably to both Saturn and PS1 versions, and is far and away the most convenient way to get DoDonPachi on your CRT. The dev has already started to work on the rest of the Cave 68k lineup and Dangun is likely coming next.

The Saturn and Playstation versions of DDP had little to do with the original game in terms of slowdown. Have you ever tried Groovymame's frame delay+CRT?

[MarioNintendo]

I'm a noob, so take this with a grain of salt... I have tried DDP on MAME, Saturn and MiSTer, and I think I will stick with the MiSTer version just for the sheer convenience. Being able to play it on a CRT via component (without any additional DAC) is simply magical. Consider me sold for good.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Don't you need a transcoder for the MiSTer? For those without RGB monitors/TVs, then the MiSTer has another selling point over Groovymame I guess, but you don't need a DAC for it either, it's native resolution at 15/24/31khz analog RGB out of the box as well with a compatible graphics card.

The interesting part is whether if MiSTer's code includes more accurate wait states emulation than Mame's code therefore more accurate slowdowns, which has been traditionally the Achilles' heel of emulators, particularly noticeable with DDP's school due to the games' nature.

[solo20]

so far
The Electric Underground has tested Dodonpachi all the slow down is there the guy has been playing it for years gave it a big thumbs up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEsi_Ncdjs

[bcass]

The interesting part is whether if MiSTer's code includes more accurate wait states emulation than Mame's code

MiSTer isn't an emulator. It's more like a cloning of the original hardware at the transistor logic level. That's what makes it a much more interesting prospect than software emulation, as it can basically mimic hardware perfectly. I don't own one (yet) but have played on one, and when it gets it right, the experience is indistinguishable from playing on original hardware.

[buggle]

mister is an emulator. hardware emulation ("cloning") is emulation. and the possibility of cycle accuracy is just that, a possibility. no currently available core is there yet, because the work and time involved to get there is insane. lets not act like the very zenith of the format is why you should invest in it right this second. get a mister because a no-fuss multisystem box is appealing to you. 100% perfect emulation is barely any closer on this box than with any software you could get.

[bcass]

lets not act like the very zenith of the format is why you should invest in it right this second.

Stop being hyperbolic. That's clearly not what I said.

[solo20]

anything mister plays i no longer use software emulation for like others have said it so easy to setup it just works no BS people can debate all they want fpga vs emulation base on my experience playing on software emulation for decades not going back unless there is no mister core for it

[el_rika]

100% perfect emulation is barely any closer on this box than with any software you could get.

No, really, what is the advantage of this type of emulation vs mame/fbn (i'm talking 1st gen Cave)? All these games are already 90% (hell maybe 99% in most cases) accurate via emulation, right down to the pcb glitches.
Doesn't this [mister core] have the same issues as any emulator? (lack of documentation, manpower, etc).
What's this about "ease" of use. How hard is to put a rom in the roms folder and play?

Will this at some point in the near future clone the cv1000 games flawlessly? Honestly, what's the catch?

[Johnpv]

100% perfect emulation is barely any closer on this box than with any software you could get.

No, really, what is the advantage of this type of emulation vs mame/fbn (i'm talking 1st gen Cave)? All these games are already 90% (hell maybe 99% in most cases) accurate via emulation, right down to the pcb glitches.
Doesn't this [mister core] have the same issues as any emulator? (lack of documentation, manpower, etc).
What's this about "ease" of use. How hard is to put a rom in the roms folder and play?

Will this at some point in the near future clone the cv1000 games flawlessly? Honestly, what's the catch?

Is there any benefit to this compared to emulation?

No matter how good software emulation is, I believe there is always going to be at least 1 frame of added lag. This being a hardware solution won't have that. It should be the most accurate way to play it outside of the actual PCB. Though it should be noted that the no added lag is for the analog output. For the HDMI side of things if the hdmi equipment (monitor, tv, receiver, switch etc) you're using doesn't like out of spec refresh rates you'll need to use the video mode that can add some lag but makes the refresh 60hz. I don't know how much it would be in this case, some one with more knowledge than me would have to chime in here.

[MintyTheCat]

I just began reading Wertenbroek's Master's Thesis and Basset's VHDL.

Really cool and useful work, I have to say. Been eons since I had to look at MAME src I feel old now: I remember when they first got MAME together - many years later and it's still actively going - cool.

[EmperorIng]

No, really, what is the advantage of this type of emulation vs mame/fbn (i'm talking 1st gen Cave)? All these games are already 90% (hell maybe 99% in most cases) accurate via emulation, right down to the pcb glitches.

Well, if you have lots of money and hate save states and autofire, this is the product for you! Yuck to mame and its recent autofire plugins m i rite.

[XtraSmiley]

No, really, what is the advantage of this type of emulation vs mame/fbn (i'm talking 1st gen Cave)? All these games are already 90% (hell maybe 99% in most cases) accurate via emulation, right down to the pcb glitches.

Well, if you have lots of money and hate save states and autofire, this is the product for you! Yuck to mame and its recent autofire plugins m i rite.

Nah man, if you have lots of money and hate save states and auto fire, get the real PCB!

MiSTer is for people who can spend under $200 and get no-lag PCB experiences, that keep getting better and better!

[buggle]

the ease of use for mister is its plug and play, which both software emulators and pcbs have pretty notable issues with. there are definitely major downsides to the format, like every way to play these games. some of the upsides people tout do not currently exist on the platform. no one has made a 100% accurate core, because the final hurdle takes a ton of effort and its the most thankless part of it. and there will always be advantages to software emulation, like the fact that it does not cost money and can emulate systems the mister will not be able to emulate while keeping the de10nano board. its a little frustrating to see the mister, which i like and think has a place in the emulation market, be consistently oversold and outright lied about because people think it needs wow factor.

[BrianC]

the ease of use for mister is its plug and play, which both software emulators and pcbs have pretty notable issues with. there are definitely major downsides to the format, like every way to play these games. some of the upsides people tout do not currently exist on the platform. no one has made a 100% accurate core, because the final hurdle takes a ton of effort and its the most thankless part of it. and there will always be advantages to software emulation, like the fact that it does not cost money and can emulate systems the mister will not be able to emulate while keeping the de10nano board. its a little frustrating to see the mister, which i like and think has a place in the emulation market, be consistently oversold and outright lied about because people think it needs wow factor.

Not sure what you are talking about here. MiSTer is definitely NOT plug and play. I like it quite a bit, but it does take a bit of setup to get going, especially for certain cores like NeoGeo and MSX. Software emulation also requires money if you want the best experience available (PC hardware, monitors, controllers, etc). It does help that many current console controllers work with both MiSTer and PC. The actual MiSTer emulation/simulation software is free, but as with software emulators the hardware to run it isn't.

[bcass]

No one has made a 100% accurate core yet because the tech is still relatively new, and the people making this stuff are a tiny group of hobbyists who are mostly doing it for free in their spare time. Also bear in mind that 100% accuracy in simulation of a specific chip is not always required to obtain 100% game accuracy. The progress made on the earlier systems, however, is amazing. I challenge anyone to a bind test of original and cloned/simulated hardware via MiSTer for the earlier systems, and I can guarantee that the hit rate will be better than the vast majority of software emulators. What clinches it for me is the simulation of audio hardware, which has often been the biggest hurdle for software emulators. Playing on a MiSTer, it's one of the first things you notice - how much richer and more accurate the audio sounds.

[cave hermit]

I love the MiSTer compared to traditional PC emulation because *once you have it set up* it is generally as simple as turning it on and playing as with a standard console. That, along with the performance being much more consistent than with software emulation where you can get frame skips, hitches, stutter, etc. as a result of OS fuckery regardless of how powerful your setup is.