BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Gus wrote: Or Roo can scrounge up a post I made in my teens to take a dig at me for having autism.
I was pointing out that you weren't entirely truthful with why you were previously banned then (something others have also since pointed out), whilst trying to be sympathetic and cut you some slack in that it's not necessarily your fault you're unfortunately seen as abrasive. Oh well. Since you're determined to be dishonest and manipulative, if the woe-is-me victim act where you pretend there's a conspiracy out to get you makes you feel better, go for it I guess.
The crowd you've fallen into from 4chan/8chan appears to be having a predictably bad influence on you, and I genuinely pity you for that.
Everyone has posted cringey edge shit in their teens, so I see absolutely no reason to bring up my autism diagnosis as an explanation besides out of a desire to belittle me for it and open the floodgates to other posters mocking me for it. Your post also seemed pretty far from sympathetic when you're going on about how it makes me intolerable and trying to imply my posting style from 2012 is the same as it is now, when it clearly isn't. Funny how you talk about my "abrasive" attitude when I'm not on the side that's mocking people's disabilities, relentlessly creating strawmans, and calling for people I disagree with to be banned.
Kiwi wrote:You know, we could stop talking about this once and for all if we just asked for an example of how offtopic has negatively impacted real players and discuss that. We'll either get some good examples or we won't, but that's the only way to actually see this conversation through to its logical conclusion. I'll start so we can get this done: can we see some specific examples (and links to those examples) of how not deleting offtopic has negatively impacted hardcore players of the genre? Additionally, if you show an example of misinformation, is it by a shmup player and/or has it been corrected by another user in the same thread? If not, why haven't you corrected the record yourself?
Keep in mind I'm not taking part in the discord vs forum stuff, I don't care what people use. All the shmup discords I'm in are fine and I think people should enjoy whatever format they like. This is specifically referring to the offtopic debate.
I explained this on Discord, but I'll post it here for greater visibility. It seems incredibly common to me that newer players (like Akagi) to feel anxiety when asked to stream, but the same even goes for some experienced players. You've brought up in the past feeling pressure to play well and entertain people when playing on Twitch and have avoided it for that reason. Softdrink is another guy I've seen who seems anxious about streaming on Twitch and even apologizes to his viewers when he finds himself playing poorly. I've also fallen victim to this pitfall as well and felt bad/reluctant about streaming myself sucking at shmups until Ricardo convinced me otherwise. Such a toxic guy, right? I simply don't feel an environment built around shitposting and off-topic is at all a healthy environment for people to share their play and actually leads to undue pressure on the people who choose to break the ice by doing so. What I'm doing with my "elitist" Discord is trying to break that vicious cycle and create an environment where everyone is comfortable sharing their play publicly no matter how bad they are.
Despatche wrote:
It doesn't actually matter if you're all different people when you literally all talk the same. There is no value in treating you as separate individuals, because you're aren't separate individuals. You are a hivemind, raised in the same "environment", living the same lives. You talk as if you're some kind of shmup cult, because you are a cult, and like any good cult you are interested in something completely different from what your cult is supposed to be about. Can't wait for you to start charging people!
Guscord and any other "personal communities" like that are where the slop comes from, not something general like this forum. Please do not kid yourselves.
Oh, and Gus has absolutely not changed in eight years, likely eighteen years, and that post everyone keeps whining about is exactly how the elitists do their thing right now. It may as well be the manifesto of that crowd.
Ricardo is toxic, Akagi is toxic, Gus is toxic, they're all toxic because it's a toxic elitist hivemind. They're the real secondaries, people who have no actual love of this genre or any other arcade genre, and just want to bring everyone else around them down. They're just... tryhards. They don't really enjoy what they're doing and just want to look good to others to such a degree that they can drag themselves into depression at any time. Imagine a cult around such a thing! Go tryhard fucking CSGO, and leave shmups alone, you fucking assholes.
I'm sure it would be a lot easier on you guys to strawman my message into "join my Discord," but it is actually "decentralize the scene and support your fellow players." I simply bring up my Discord to illustrate how that model actually works to create a healthy environment where people have a good time playing/watching games free of judgment and have constructive conversations. There's no cult voodoo here. Simply have a community leader who leads by example and encourages other players and the good stuff naturally follows. We were all lied to when we were told off-topic and shitposting are a necessary part of the scene.
As for the claim that I don't enjoy these games, that just seems laughable projection on your part.
Squire Grooktook wrote:And why should we expect that instead of the exact opposite? The very fact that shmups require such a time investment should be all the more reason that as people get older, they lose freetime, drive, or form new responsibilities that change their schedules, that they simply can't put the time into grinding danmaku games daily or weekly or get as much enjoyment out of it as they used to.
Nice job moving the goalposts here. Losing interest or enjoyment is a very different thing from simply running out of things to talk about.
Squire Grooktook wrote:And that's exactly what I see when I look around this forum. I don't see a bunch of newcomers with moe anime avatars jumping into off topic to discuss Fate Grand/Order or whatever with the occasional shmup post as you seem to predict: I see a bunch of old-ass-fogies (no offense) who joined 10 years ago or more and have post counts in the thousands treating the place as a casual, chill hangout. Again, if someone with a 5000+ post count spends more time in off-topic then they used to, that doesn't mean they didn't like shmups or don't still like shmups. You can change your priorities but still like or even love something.
I don't want to do any direct call-outs, but I think it's plainly obvious to anyone checking the board that there are a fair number posters who've joined in the past few years with a majority of their posts in off-topic. We can dispute how large a proportion they make up, but they definitely exist. Besides that, the point that it is older members driving things in that direction really isn't much of a disagreement, as I already pointed out that the situation with off-topic dominating largely happens because of people of influence choosing to join in on it rather than steer things in a different direction. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Squire Grooktook wrote:At the end of the day, all of this reads like a slight against people who don't share your level and type of interest and passion, and an attempt to rationalize their motives as something malign and dishonest:
"Little Timmy enjoys going for 1cc's, but not for scores, therefore he must not BE A REAL FAN, HE'S JUST A CLOUT CHASER!!!"
"Little Timmy has a lot of interests and responsibilities, online and off, so he only puts in a credit of R-Type every few weeks SO THAT MUST MEAN HE'S NOT REALLY ENJOYING IT BUT IS JUST A JARPIG WHO'S TRYING TO LOOK COOL!!!"
"Oh, little Timmy is now kinda pissed that I keep talking shit about him? SEE!? HE'S MAD THAT I'M FORMING MY OWN COMMUNITY AND BEING MORE HARDCORE THEN HIM!!! SEE HOW JARPIGS ACT WHEN YOU TRY TO TAKE AWAY THEIR SLOPHOUSE???"
Alright, so
You: People lose interest and enjoyment in shmups over time. There's nothing wrong with those people making up a majority!
Also you: People who talk jarpigs all the time and play a credit once a year should be considered shmup fans just as anyone else! How dare you accuse people of lying!
Let's turn the tables a little. Imagine everyone at a well-known fighting games forum like SRK or Smashboards suddenly got into shmups and focused all their attention on that. Some discussions about fightans remain, but only of very superficial things like their aesthetics or the business prospects of the developers. A new player joins and has difficulty finding a match more often than "every few weeks." Would he be wrong to consider the board largely a haven for secondaries at this point? Does he deserve a hate mob when he chooses to leave for greener pastures and suggests the small handful of players left do the same?
Besides this, why do you feel the need to turn things into semantics games about how frequently one must play to be considered a proper fan and seethe about how I'm calling people liars for it? I certainly am not losing any sleep if people don't consider me much a fan of F-Zero GX or Doom, those both being games I enjoyed greatly at one point but haven't played them in some time. I don't think people who've happily moved on from shmups and are enjoying the off-topic section should care a whole lot either what players think. Also, why must you keep bringing up these repeatedly debunked strawmans to steer things into "casual vs hardcore scoreplay" territory, even when I've said over-and-over that I have no issues with spectators and low-level players, and even see them as a crucial part of a gaming ecosystem? All of this points to insecurity on your part and supports my assertion that there is an element of hardcore cred involved.
Squire Grooktook wrote:It all reeks of circular reasoning. I interpret someone's motives as malign, slander them, and then when they naturally get mad at me about slander, I take that as proof that my original interpretation was correct and that they're the bad guy for not liking me anymore.
Yes, go right ahead and ignore the next part of my so you can do what you're accusing me of and pigeonhole me as a conspiracy theorist with ill-intent. I stand by what I said that these are things I've seen with my own eyes and they aren't simply ideas I've cooked up in my head. I've definitely seen good players leave after being advised against trying to talk jarpigs with drive-by trolls. I've also seen people try to convince me to ban players because they didn't like not having a space for off-topic discussion. The amount of passive aggressive pressure I've dealt with just from being in charge of my small server really was completely shocking to me and it has really opened my eyes up to why shmup communities go downhill. You don't just have to believe me, though. Look in this thread and you'll see Akagi get insults and strawmans from an off-topic poster, only to get quickly banned when he fights back. Look as well at far more people caring about Ricardo posting a few private messages than about someone doxxing my family and trying to ruin my life. Or look at how people have no issues mocking my disability right after Akagi was banned for "muh tone." It all points to people feeling threatened by players leaving and starting a noise-free zone and everything else being a cover.
Squire Grooktook wrote:More to the point, you cannot honestly tell people they're not "real fans" because they don't meet some arbitrary criteria you've set for hardcore dedication or because they like a thing for different reasons than you like it. When I was like 8 or whatever and my Mom bought me R-Type 3 from a pre-owned game store, I didn't know what the fuck a 1cc was let alone scoring, I just knew it had fucking sick awesome monsters and that ha ha charge shot go boom. But I was enjoying it, and to tell people similarly that they're lying despicable manipulative jarpigs because they want to talk about shmups but aren't as competitive as you, well, again...It's naturally going to stir up shit.
Alright, so when was the last time you spent several hours watching a guy stream basic 1cc attempts and give them encouragement? The sad thing about all these attempts at painting as an elitist just mindlessly hurling insults at other shmup fans is that it's the exact opposite of what I'm actually doing. I would argue that the true elitists here are the people like you who create this environment where it's all about shitposting and off-topic. You create this shitty toxic environment where people feel reluctant to stream their runs or to even ask questions. A new member joins and sees very little in-depth shmup discussion and a whole lot of shitposting, so naturally they join in on the shitposting. Even as their interest wanes, they can still keep up the shitposting as they don't have to worry about being judged, while there's conversely tons of unspoken pressure on those brave few who choose to break the ice by showing themselves failing at a game.
But it doesn't have to be this way. I've gone to great effort over the past year to stream every session I play so people can see what the grind is actually like, and it's inspired several people to start streaming themselves. People feel comfortable asking the most basic questions free of any shame, because they can tell that I've tried to create a truly welcoming and judgment-free environment. More than that, I set an example of supporting other players and being truly invested in every step of their progress, rather than simply offering a token "congrats" after someone does a 1cc or big score goal. This thing I've built and want to see others build has nothing to do with my scores or any sort of clout they might me. It's simply because I cared enough to support my fellow players and lead by example while everyone else was too busy talking jarpigs.
Squire Grooktook wrote:I don't know all the ancient history, but here and now it looks like this topic would never have come up if you and your friends hadn't broached the topic and felt the need to throw in your forced meme jarpig bullshit to "slander" everyone else.
I'm gonna be honest, every time I've seen you on this forum or on discord talking about this forum, you're always ranting about some nebulous group of posers dwelling here. You're always implying everyone is a fake fan or aren't enjoying games the right way, even if you don't name anyone specific to say it to their face. Surprise surprise, people don't really like being called liars constantly. Maybe knock it off a bit and things won't get so heated next time.
I think I've been pretty civil here and have made an effort to explain all my points reasonably. If anything, I've probably been too kind given how hell-bent everyone seems to be on coming at me with strawmans and insults. Really, I don't think any of that makes you guys look good at all. The idea that the farm is predominately populated by secondaries and that off-topic drags things down really is not a new point, and it's a point that's been made numerous times over the years by other posters, usually in a far more snide manner than I'm doing now. The only difference I can think of is in that even if Jaimers and Erppo might have talked shit about the farm back in the day, they were still posting vids and strats here to create some semblance of it remaining a relevant place for those things. My solution involves leaving the jarpig slophouses behind entirely, and I'd wager it's that fear of breaking the facade that's setting people off.
Sumez wrote:
You can have your stance that any off-topic at all is destructive to the shmup chat, and if that's what you think, I am part of the problem, that's fair. But straight up patronizing people for taking an interest in other topics isn't helping anything.
The off-topic forum is here exactly to keep that stuff outside of shmup chat, and one of my initial theoretical suggestions was elevating the shmup chat forum, and splitting all off-topic talk (video games, hardware, marketplace) into a seperately branded forum under the same community umbrella, in order to keep a related community but a harder focus on shoot'em up discussions. That sounds like a good approach, no?
I don't think I'm really "patronizing" anyone for being interested in other topics. I've said before and I'll say it again that I'm happy that the off-topic forum exists if there's people who enjoy it. I simply don't feel I deserve to be attacked or the idea of a shmup-focused space painted as "elitist" when I aim to remove elitism from the scene. As I said, I don't think simply removing the off-topic forum would do much in itself when you don't have people in charge who actually care to put things in the right direction, and who will cave to non-player pressure. It really seems to me that the best potential for discussion is in the smaller player-run servers, like I mentioned. This already seems the norm for Touhou, and it seems to work pretty well for arcade as well, if my server is any indication. By the way, the idea that you need off-topic to contain such discussions is a total myth. Simply don't have a place for such discussions and don't encourage them and the people interested in such conversations simply won't participate. I've seen it happen on my own server. Having an off-topic only serves to encourage people who want to talk off-topic to do so. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
maximo310 wrote: I'd believe that most people who want to get in this genre have the goal of exploring games, achieving goals & getting better over the long run in line with life responsibilities ( having a job, being with friends, other hobbies, etc). But as I've said in the past, placing too much self-importance on grinding out shmups & trying to force those ideas onto other people who don't completely align with those expectations creates unnecessary friction, especially from what I've seen over the last year with people getting passive-aggressive over someone mentioning that they were going to go on a ff14 raid with some friends.
I also don't understand how there's apparently some new scoreboard project (again) that hasn't been mentioned in any public venue besides one streaming server, which makes it sound like this info is mostly being hidden away in this other discord server( which was supposed to be avoided based on some earlier opinions in this thread?!)
No, the passive agressive tension is from jarpigs/e-celebs forcing their ideas that players must co-exist in a space being flooded with shitposting and MMO talk, whilst people turn a blind eye to well-known players trolling spectators by planting false information. The leaderboard is under development still and has some issues left to be ironed. We simply don't want to hype something that isn't ready yet. But do please keep cherry-picking things to try making me look bad.
BIL wrote:
If you smear shit on the walls, you will be thrown out of most establishments, no matter how many "Pls be patient I have autism" cards you proffer.
Plasmo wrote:
The Autism Victim & The Spanish Flu VERSUS The Power Hungry E-Celebs!
Of course the mods will do nothing about this utter bullshit after banning Akagi for muh tone. Stay classy, farm. I'm done.
) has homo-strong feelings about me, I don't know them from Adam, and in any case, regard them as a figure of fun. >¦3 But I'm dredging this episode up here, in case it's seen me unwittingly cast as a member of the "BAWWW, SHUMPSFARM H8 TRU PLAYAZ" chorus. In that conversation, I called Mr. Jarpig very bad words, most scandalously of all a BABY. 
(I know how these bitter virgins feel about dads!) Not a scratch on my account, while his was shitcanned so fiercely, not even his name persists! (I was disappointed, albeit understanding - I wanted more timestamps, and ended up having to hunt them down by my lonesome) Do you know why?
