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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:47 am 


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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 2060
Location: South Wales
Bassa-Bassa wrote:
cools wrote:
I'm fairly sure I've never said anything about progear and the emulated CPU, can you quote me?


lol nope. It could be an Arcade Otaku thread, and maybe not mentioning directly the CPU setting but addressing a question about Progear's (lack of) accuracy in Mame, so the CPU/slowdowns were the point there, that's how I understood it.


I genuinely can't recall, it's not something that was in my knowledge until you mentioned it and all my searching is to no avail (I've not gone off and edited posts either!).
el_rika wrote:
Futari 1.5 maniac quick test (Abnormal Palm)

Settings: cpu 37.9 mhz, blitter 54%


https://vimeo.com/406256643

Just a bit slower in some spots (ex. level 1 boss lava shot, level 4 boss third pattern is smoother but just a bit slower), but also very close.

Reco Normal needs a lower CPU, same blitter


Reco Normal in Original seems very close to my memory of the PCB - thanks :)
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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 2:48 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Posts: 284
There's a possibility of not being you, but I'm almost sure! It was in the context of defending Groovymame as a virtually identical solution to PCBs, etc. Way before it was popular (kind of), that's why I remember, because it served in my case.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:37 am 


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I haven't seen too much discussion about Futari Black Label, but I made this comparision a few months back, right around the making of this thread.
It shows a side-by-side of PCB footage with my MAME settings. It's a bit outdated (I now think 54% blitter is more accurate for example), but I think it's still worth sharing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXnsHkx5wvA

The only big thing in this comparision that obviously isn't accurate is the Larsa fight (which is a big deal). Generally she is too fast, but most other bosses are spot on.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:15 pm 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
Hey,

my (wip) Futari BL settings are 40.85 Mhz and 54%.

It's a very good comparison man :D


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:51 pm 



Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 23
So, I did some research on this in 2017 and Bassa-Bassa already linked my post earlier in this thread, and I still stand by those numbers. I admit that I'm a bad player and I have never touched PCB in my life, but I do own a 360 and all Cave ports. When I did my comparison, I did it with a 360 versions, and while I realize the results are not perfect, I have no time, nor the energy right now to further refine them.

I feel that it's important to understand two things about this topic:

1. These games were never specifically programmed with a set amount of slowdown, calculated to an inch. The slowdown in these games is ultimately incidental, and while they definitely were developed with the fact that it will occur in mind, it's not like developers were replicating and testing every possible scenario to make sure that the slowdown is precisely the way they wanted it to be. Basically, what I'm trying it say is that slightly inaccurate slowdown in Cave games does not go against developers intent or original vision.

2. The intent of these games is to be hard. And when developers program an extremely hard pattern, they do it with an intent for the player to loose. I think that shmup games are one of the few pure games left out there in a sense that they are made with a specific intention to defeat the player. They are programmed with the intention that everything should be beatable in theory, but that doesn't mean that it should be beatable in practice. Of course, if it's beatable in theory, someone will beat it in practice sooner or later, but that's beside the point. The point is, as soon as you make the game easier on yourself, you're going against developer's intentions and their vision for the game. This means that as soon as you give yourself more slowdown than is present in PCB, you're basically cheating and depriving yourself from experiencing the design of the game the way it meant to be experienced.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's better to have not enough slowdown, than to have more slowdown in certain areas. Of course, it depends on what your goals are for playing on an emulator. If you just want to use it as a practice for scoring runs on an actual PCB, then giving yourself more slowdown is acceptable. But if you just plan to play solely on an emulator just to experience or clear the game, you should aim to not give yourself more slowdown. Will this make some parts harder? Sure. But there are Cave console ports that have less slowdown than PCB and they have been cleared alright. And as for score play, you shouldn't be playing for score on an emulator anyway, unless your competing with yourself. And in that regard it doesn't matter if your slowdown is slightly inaccurate.

Now, for me personally, I think the best way to set slowdown is to look for moments in the game where it happens regardless of what the player does. One such moment in Mushihimesama Futari 1.5, midboss on stage one always appears with some slowdown regardless of what you do, and always dies with some slowdown. Thus, as soon as you achieve slowdown in this situation, your next goal is to test the whole game and make sure that there is not a single instance of a slowdown happening where slowdown doesn't supposed to be happening. This is the method I used to test all the games for myself and I think, results produced were perfectly serviceable.

I'm very interested in numbers that other people use. I really do feel that there is a room for improvement here. However, I urge people to not give themselves more slowdown, or at least to remark that they do. I would also urge people to try to use more objective situations that are easily replicated to test slowdown, and not rely on extreme plays where there is too much variables because this may lead to skewed results.


Last edited by stacks183 on Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:33 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Posts: 284
stacks183 wrote:
And as for score play, you shouldn't be playing for score on an emulator anyway


How so?


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 pm 



Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 23
Because you're not competing on the same standard as other people due to imperfection of emulation. Even if you beat a world record, there's always will be that caveat next to your score that you did it on a different version or under different conditions then everybody else.

Basically, your score is confined to the platform you set it on. If you set it on a console, it will always be a console version score. If you set it in MAME, it will always be a MAME score.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:16 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Posts: 284
stacks183 wrote:
imperfection of emulation


Emulation can be pretty much "perfect" these days! Check Groovymame with CRTs and a good setup. (Of course, not for CV1k games for now, hence this thread.)


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:21 am 



Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 23
True. I was talking mostly about CV1000 games and other newer shmups that don't work correctly in MAME. I think it's perfectly fine to play older games that are emulated correctly competitively for scoring.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:19 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
stacks183 wrote:

1. These games were never specifically programmed with a set amount of slowdown, calculated to an inch. The slowdown in these games is ultimately incidental, and while they definitely were developed with the fact that it will occur in mind, it's not like developers were replicating and testing every possible scenario to make sure that the slowdown is precisely the way they wanted it to be. Basically, what I'm trying it say is that slightly inaccurate slowdown in Cave games does not go against developers intent or original vision.



Thanks for your numbers and effort man!

Regarding the slowdown, i'm sure Cave used certain values, combined with certain graphical effects, that would cause different timings, by design. There are obviously a lot of things to be analysed here, such as their method of testing (and how high level they played their own games) and general public they originally intended the games to be played by (mostly), but in all cv1000 games (and almost all Cave shmups) there are clear signs of a deliberate design that is centered around a correlation between game speed and bullets density.
Also true is that usually (there are exceptions of course) major slowdown occurs when a very skilled player completely dominates the game, in ways that the devs probably didn't even knew it was possible, or deemed it'd be a very rare performance.

I agree that, the perfect accuracy we are looking for does not mean that it is necessarily the way Cave wanted these games to be played. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to have that stuttery spastic slowdown that occurs in many instances, and maybe some of the ports are closer to what they wanted to do on pcb but couldn't...who knows, maybe Gus will ask them next time he has coffee with them 8)


stacks183 wrote:
Now, for me personally, I think the best way to set slowdown is to look for moments in the game where it happens regardless of what the player does. One such moment in Mushihimesama Futari 1.5, midboss on stage one always appears with some slowdown regardless of what you do, and always dies with some slowdown. Thus, as soon as you achieve slowdown in this situation, your next goal is to test the whole game and make sure that there is not a single instance of a slowdown happening where slowdown doesn't supposed to be happening. This is the method I used to test all the games for myself and I think, results produced were perfectly serviceable.


That's actually not a good way to tackle it in my opinion. The mid boss slowdown appearence happends the moment blitter delay is activated, no modifications needed, and the death slowdown is hardcoded, just like an end level boss death.

stacks183 wrote:
I would also urge people to try to use more objective situations that are easily replicated to test slowdown, and not rely on extreme plays where there is too much variables because this may lead to skewed results.


That would be ideal, but as many instances as possible must be confronted for the settings to be as close as possible to originals. There's the bullet density slowdown, dicatated mostly by the CPU clock and there's the special effects (transparencies, explosions) that react to blitter changes. These need to work together.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:06 pm 



Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 23
el_rika wrote:
That would be ideal, but as many instances as possible must be confronted for the settings to be as close as possible to originals. There's the bullet density slowdown, dicatated mostly by the CPU clock and there's the special effects (transparencies, explosions) that react to blitter changes. These need to work together.


That is a solid point and I definitely agree. One thing I used to test for slowdown is boss battles, since there's less variation depending on player actions. I do feel like a lot of people in this thread got very good results and I definitely need to test 54% blitter delay next time I'm going to play these games.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:57 am 


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stacks183 wrote:
The point is, as soon as you make the game easier on yourself, you're going against developer's intentions and their vision for the game. This means that as soon as you give yourself more slowdown than is present in PCB, you're basically cheating and depriving yourself from experiencing the design of the game the way it meant to be experienced.


But like you said earlier, the slowdown is the games were not 100% intended anyway. Cave just looked at it and said "that's good enough". And some ports like Futari 360 have noticeably more slowdown and is therefore an easier clear. Would you say that port is not fit for scoring or is a form of cheating? Look, I'm not deliberately putting in more slowdown in these games because I want to make the games easier on myself, the challenge is what I like so much about it. But sometimes when testing it just felt right to put in more slowdown in some sections to make the game OVERALL more accurate as a whole, which seems to me like the best goal to have in mind. I don't think any of us in this thread are superplayers.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:01 pm 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
Meriscan wrote:
But sometimes when testing it just felt right to put in more slowdown in some sections to make the game OVERALL more accurate as a whole, which seems to me like the best goal to have in mind. I don't think any of us in this thread are superplayers.


100% ^

The middle ground is the target here. The fact that Cave themselves couldn't perfectly replicate the behaviour of their own games (on 360), adds a lot of weight to the assumption that these games will play exactly like on pcb, only on pcb.
The tools mame offers atm, brings them pretty close overall though.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:22 pm 



Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 23
You're definitely right. I think the fact that Cave doesn't really bother to replicate slowdown correctly in their ports is proof enough that they don't consider it a vital part of their game. I also think that it's very hard to measure exact amount of slowdown in a given situation, since the situations themselves are hard to replicate with a lot of variables at play. All we can do is go by feel. If you feel that the game is more accurate with specific settings, then it's perfectly fine. There's going to be more slowdown in some situations, less in others, it's unavoidable.

What I'm talking about is more of a situation where there are noticeably more slowdown across the board. I think that goes against the spirit of the game and should be avoided, even if it results in the absense of slowdown in some situations where one should be.

As for scores, I shouldn't have said that. We shouldn't be telling people how to play, and I kinda regret that I did. Personally, I probably wouldn't play for score on an emulator, at least not seriously. But that's just me, and other people may feel differently. It all depends on where you submitting your scores and what they accept anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:46 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2019
Posts: 284
I thought it was more or less accepted that Cave never really cared about their home ports. They even put in charge of them an expert on visual novels.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:56 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
Testing a bit of Akai Katana, another gorgeous game full of pretty effects.

I've been studying this for the past week (still don't fully understand all the elements of proper scoring - do i actually need to graze bullets with the captured orbs and gold?! or they mature on their own after a fixed time?) and i have a good idea on what it needs to properly run in mame.

Type C slows down the game most, and it's a very noticeable difference in slowdown, with any of the ships, between an option full of matured orbs, small orbs and no orbs.

A guy on nico did pcb runs with all characters without ever going into Bubble mode (not an easy thing to do :shock: ), which is very helpful for testing.
There are sections in this game where, especially with C and B, the game slows down so much that i think it's in single digits. Possibly the slowest slowdown in any Cave cv1000 game.

B ship:
https://vimeo.com/426182216

Cpu 47.00 mhz
Blitter delay 68%

C ship needs a faster Cpu clock and lower blitter value (60%), while A ship needs a lower Cpu and considerably higher (i settled for 72%) blitter.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:37 am 



Joined: 27 Jun 2020
Posts: 3
hey!

i'm trying to set this up deathsmiles as well as possible with mame right now, and i notice that a lot of these settings are reported with cpu clocking in Mhz. Although for my MAME it seems that the Overclock CPU parameter is in percentage? Is there an easy way to translate them? What does cpu 52.5 Mhz mean in percentage terms?

thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:26 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
After you set a certain CPU value with the slider, go one step back to Game/Machine Information tab, and there the % value you set, will be shown in the actual Mhz.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:01 pm 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
Muchi Muchi Pork!

Love everything about this game, except for the bosses, mostly because they lack a health bar or audio cue of some kind. Maybe they'll grow on me :P

Cpu 53.55 Mhz, blitter delay 53%

https://streamable.com/vh6pcn - level 1

https://streamable.com/cfpdff - level 2 and 3 (half)

Maybe a little faster at times, though pretty good overall (level 4 boss slows down just a little bit more than on pcb). This game is soo delicious and sucking in those big golden porky heads is incredibly satisfying.


Daifukkatsu Black Label


This game is pure madness, bullets everywhere, the hud and your ship completely vanishes, hyper quickly becomes a double edge sword, the soundtrack is blood pumping...what can i say, a masterpiece :shock:

Cpu 41.57 Mhz, blitter delay 57% (Strong/Power)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S7kxrY5R5jw&t=172s - level 1 and half of 2 Green Strong

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xmXpWdfVEnQ&t=4s - level 1 and half of 2 Blue Power

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LpuUDgMpkw8&t=283s - level 2 and 3 Green Strong (got ultra lucky in a couple of spots).

!youtube/streamable always add a bit of annoying stuttering in some moments, so ignore it! :cry:

This game's timings are very very dependant on rank and shot type. The game is fastest with A, a bit slower with B and (slightly slower) with C, like most Cave games with this forumla.
Level one and three bosses on Strong/Power with a full red rank, as well as a couple of dense bullet pattern moments (before mid boss level 3, begining of level 4) are important and reflect well the overall slowdown of the rest of the game.

If anyone knows a pcb Strong/Bomb no Ura no Hyper level 4 mid boss footage (preferrably B ship), it'd help a lot

Bomb style needs 1 Mhz more with B and C, otherwise some instances are a bit too slow (ex.level 1 boss 3rd pattern full red).


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:10 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
Meriscan wrote:
I haven't seen too much discussion about Futari Black Label, but I made this comparision a few months back, right around the making of this thread.
It shows a side-by-side of PCB footage with my MAME settings. It's a bit outdated (I now think 54% blitter is more accurate for example), but I think it's still worth sharing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXnsHkx5wvA

The only big thing in this comparision that obviously isn't accurate is the Larsa fight (which is a big deal). Generally she is too fast, but most other bosses are spot on.


Been playing Futari BL quite a lot lately.

Your initial tweaks are excellent, though the CPU must be set a bit lower for Reco, so all CPU dependant slowdown activates properly (ex. level1 boss last pattern).
The 53% blitter is better overall than 54% for God (Maniac works well with 54% though). A couple of patterns are faster with 53, but 54 adds a bit too much slowdown.

Will come back with more information and numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:18 pm 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
So, Futari Black Label.

No need to reiterate how
Quote:
amazing
this one is.

There's a lot to be said about this game and how the emulation handles it, but i'll keep it short.

On pcb, contrary to the norm, sometimes Reco produces more slowdown, sometimes Palm does that (ex. as opposed to Daifukkatsu where the rule is that blue always slows down the game more, and red less ). So the logic is not clear cut, and this made analysing and tweaking much more time consuming.

Reco maniac:
Cpu 45.26 Mhz, Blitter Delay 54%
Palm maniac:
Cpu 46.08 Mhz, Blitter Delay 56%

Reco god:
44.54 Mhz, Blitter Delay 56%
Palm god:
44.33 Mhz, Blitter Delay 56%


Overall level 2 boss and certain Larsa patterns are great for the CPU values, while level 3 and 4 bosses and again Larsa, for blitter.
In-levels and mid bosses, line up very well with these boss values.
Also, the more agressive/point blank the game is played, the more slowdowns happen. Superplayers tend to always play like this, for those red aura gems :shock:

Observations:
There are a couple of instances (boss 3 and 4) where, depending on how homing (mostly Reco's little bugs) connect to the boss body, an extra 1 or 2 seconds of slowdown occurs. I've seen it in pcb vids and it seems to also be dependable on how much of the boss's body is on screen, so it's somewhat random.

In maniac, 2nd level Boss, first salvo of last segment, is a bit slower with Palm laser, if it connects the center of the boss. Shot has no issues.
In maniac (to lesser extent God) level 3 boss first salvo is slower with Reco if laser hits frontal compared to pcb. Last pattern also depends on positioning, but it is slightly slower as well.

[In these bosses, it depends a lot on how soon/late you create that ~ 3 seconds continuous white flash, with laser/shot, on the boss's body. It seems superplayers actually use this to their advantage, creating a bit more or a bit less slowdown in those quick moments]

Larsa's first salvo in maniac is just a little slower with Reco's laser compared to pcb, though i've seen it go slower in some pcb vids while a bit faster in others.

Larsa in god is very good with both ships :wink:


Maniac:
https://vimeo.com/471737529/ (Reco maniac lvl1,2,3)

https://vimeo.com/471731416/ (Reco maniac lvl1)

https://vimeo.com/479581629 (Palm maniac lvl1,2)

https://vimeo.com/479582830 (Palm maniac lvl3 boss)

https://vimeo.com/475076907/ (Palm maniac lvl4 boss)


God:
https://vimeo.com/476652165 (Reco god lvl1,2)

https://vimeo.com/477588588 (Reco god lvl2)

https://vimeo.com/user107095125 (Reco god lvl3 boss)

https://vimeo.com/476787078 (Reco god lvl4)

https://vimeo.com/476856294 (Reco god lvl4 mid boss to boss)

https://vimeo.com/479470121 (Palm god lvl4 boss to lvl5 mid boss)

- as always, there are some stutters from vimeo conversion.

Note: There is a behaviour on pcb that can not be replicated (without completely breaking everything else):
Palm (and to a lesser extent Reco's) laser effect seems to have a greater impact on slowdown in less busy scenes in certain levels. Easily observed in superplays at the begining of level 4, where Palm's laser visibly slows down the speed. Other similar moments don't seem to behave the same, with Palm not slowing down the game this dramatically.
This somewhat supports Trap15's old idea that different bleding methods need different blitter values. Thankfuly it happends only in a couple of small instances, the overall blitter and cpu values taking over quite quickly.

Cheers to all.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:52 pm 



Joined: 10 Apr 2020
Posts: 21
The first page of this thread triggers a trojan horse alert from malware bytes.I don't get why.


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:10 pm 



Joined: 27 Jun 2020
Posts: 3
Hey just wanted to say I really appreciate you sharing those mushi futari settings. I’ve been using them for reco original and it’s a big improvement over what I had for sure. Feels good. My ultimate plan is to play maniac but I gotta try and beat original first haha xD


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 Post subject: Re: Slowdown accuracy for cv1k games on MAME is almost perfe
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:23 pm 



Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Posts: 243
You're welcome buddy.

Thing with original in Futari (BL) is that it has a wild rank system, and at 9999 it is extremely difficult to survive and play like the superplayers.
The game behaves very differently depending on how good you play and how efficiently you milk those big gold gems. The slowdown is hardest to study and reporduce in this mode.

Maniac and God don't have rank and because of that, testing is less strict and much more predictable.

It's possible that the Maniac values work for Original as well, but i can't confirm it 100%.


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