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 Post subject: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:58 pm 


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Joined: 13 Sep 2019
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How can you play boss 3 with arcade stick ?
Look at the attack at 3:53 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbaeF--xtw4

Arcade sticks have dead-zone.
You cant play this without normal game-pad.
Or do i have to get used to it ?

When trying arcade stick i cannot get close to any of my high-scores in any game.
I cant believe anyone will spend a quarter for that arcade cabinet with arcade-joystick it is totally impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:05 pm 


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Not really sure what you're asking, as yes, of course it can be done with a joystick. I've no-missed this boss with two different joysticks personally. Sticks do take time to get used to if you're primarily a d-pad player. I found this to be true myself at first, but I find it hard to go back to d-pads having transitioned to sticks many years ago.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:07 pm 


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The secret is collecting more 5-cubes, which lowers the joystick dead zone.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:08 pm 


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Thanks, i continue with the stick for now, it is more fun.
How u handle the dead-zone ?

You need to handle the stick like a maniac ?, wont it break.
I also got this problem with moving up or down, it happens all the sudden, or sometimes not.
Whatever i just nuke em and insert-coin.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:10 pm 


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What kind of stick are you using? The quality varies a LOT among various types. And, no, unless you're seriously man-handing the thing you shouldn't worry about it breaking.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:12 pm 


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I have the cheapest small one avaiable, and its black in color.
Hori mini ( i dont want any bigger ).


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:22 pm 


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heli wrote:
I have the cheapest small one avaiable, and its black in color.
Hori mini ( i dont want any bigger ).


That might be your problem then. The stick in there isn't the best, and it might be too small to mod with a Sanwa or Seimitsu unfortunately.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:34 pm 


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Those sticks have less dead-zone ?


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:39 pm 


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yeah, honestly, i would suggest that if you're enjoying playing on stick, you should upgrade the chance that you get. there are a lot of different kinds of sticks, levers, buttons, etc. and maybe what you need is a stick that's more tailored to your needs. i recommend at the base level to get a stick with a rugged case, and a lever with a higher tension spring/grommet. all this lingo probably doesn't mean too much if you're a newer stick player, but basically more tension resets your stick to neutral faster, which is extremely important for making precise micro-movements. as you play with a stick, you tend to start to get a better feel for exactly how far you have to push the stick to get it to register directional presses; it's actually much smaller than you think, and you can typically get away with moving the stick at a distance even shorter than the edge of the gate inside.

some people prefer to use Japanese levers (known as JLFs, which typically have a ball top -- and i presume is the kind of lever in your stick, as it's the most popular), but i personally opt for a Korean style lever with a bat top, as Korean levers have a smaller deadzone (sounds like what you're looking for) and typically have higher tension which is great for the said resetting back to neutral. i used to use it only for playing Tekken, but after getting used to it, i think it's really fantastic for shmups too. Mark_MSX also uses a Korean lever in all of his shmup gameplay.

check this video out for a pretty succinct 3-minute description of the difference between levers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu8qlRJnH2M
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:45 pm 


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^^^

Also, a quick scan of Amazon reviews of that Hori Mini stick have a few mentions of people experiencing poor performance and non-registering movements. Sorry, it's just not a great product it seems, even though I generally like Hori stuff in general. I use a Hori HRAP 4 Kai myself (unmodded) on the PS4 for Ketsui and I love it, but it is 3x the price of the mini.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:59 pm 


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I see now those korean sticks are better, so you recognize jap sticks from the ball on top ?
And yes mine has a square feel to it and i would like it round in a circle.

I go looking to the one you have jon, only those things are so big.
Maybe one day when i have money to much.
I like to try before buy somewhere.

Edit : to bad the Hori HRAP 4 Kai is japanese design stick.
I dont want to spend a fortune for modding.
And 130 euro is 100 more then what i payd.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:07 pm 


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heli wrote:
I see now those korean sticks are better, so you recognize jap sticks from the ball on top ?
And yes mine has a square feel to it and i would like it round in a circle.

I go looking to the one you have jon, only those things are so big.
Maybe one day when i have money to much.
I like to try before buy somewhere.

Edit : to bad the Hori HRAP 4 Kai is japanese design stick.
I dont want to spend a fortune for modding.
And 130 euro is 100 more then what i payd.


It's really all about personal preference. And, no, the ball top doesn't automatically make it a Japanese manufacturer. As said, the quality can really vary, so it's worth doing a little homework and reading some reviews before you commit to anything.

One more note, you likely do not want an octagonal gate for shmups. I get where you're coming from, but over time knowing where your corners are is really essential for diagonal movement in shmups. You'll get used to the square gate once you get more comfortable.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:24 pm 


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I been looking in shops a bit, and see that almost all sticks are not available and not produced anymore.
Maybe they get rid of stock before PS5.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:32 pm 


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Location: Southern Ontario
D-Pads and Sticks vary wildly in quality from manufacturer to manufacturer. "Dead Zone" generally refers to analog sticks there the stick is constantly telling the system its position, wheres on arcade sticks, the "throw" or "throw distance" is what refers to how you have to push the stick for it to register and make a physical contact with the connectors.

For what it's worth, Seimitsu's LS-32s are popular for shmups due to a short throw distance, but plenty of other good sticks are out there. You can buy a standard arcade stick for the system, then swap out the parts on it for something else if you want. Standard arcade sticks are generally designed to have the individual bits switched out (as opposed to having to toss an entire controller if the D-Pad stops working or something, those are harder to repair individual components).

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One more note, you likely do not want an octagonal gate for shmups. I get where you're coming from, but over time knowing where your corners are is really essential for diagonal movement


Knowing where my corners are is exactly why I prefer octagonal gates for shmups. The only disadvantage mechanically of an octagonal gate is that it's harder to hold down + tap left/right in a shmup, but only if you're riding the gate hard. It's still perfectly doable.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:36 pm 


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Location: Rome
I've always felt that all kind of inputs, be it a mouse, keyboard, gamepad or arcade stick, are highly personal.

Lots of people swear by the JLF but I absolutely hate it.

Slagcoin has a very nice table with comparisons among the various sticks available today: https://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attri ... rands.html

I currently use LS-40 with its standard square gate for everything and find it perfect for my needs.

Try finding a nice, good grip on the joystick, I like to have the ball top between my thumb and middle and index fingers. I can comfortably do very small taps to do micrododges in tight situations just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:27 pm 


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i used to get kind of paranoid about the prices of sticks too, but it's really worth the investment. you want a really good stick if you're gonna commit to playing on stick. last thing you want to be doing is buying a cheap, shitty stick several times because it keeps breaking or works terribly.

depending on where you live you might be able to find some decent sticks second-hand (or ordered online). a good stick that's mod-friendly also means you can legitimately customize your stick to exactly your comfort levels, from swapping out springs and actuators all the way to swapping out the entire joystick itself with other types. it's kind of an addicting hobby, lol.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:43 pm 


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donluca wrote:


I currently use LS-40 with its standard square gate for everything and find it perfect for my needs.



YES all day.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:30 am 


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ATTRACTS wrote:
donluca wrote:


I currently use LS-40 with its standard square gate for everything and find it perfect for my needs.



YES all day.


Yeah, I prefer the Seimitsu LS-40 as well (the LS-32 series are solid too though). It has a really snappy return-to-neutral.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:47 am 


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LS-40 square gate crew represent!
Though I am playing quite a bit on keyboard at the minute too. I've played on keyboards since I was a nipper but it never really felt right for shmupping. After spending a long time playing monolith, it's really clicked.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:55 am 


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I like the stick in the RAPV Switch and RAP N. PS4 quite a bit. I managed to get past that tricky block part in 6-4 in Vs. SMB with the former. It's not bad for shmups either. The stick seems tighter compared to the earlier RAP4 Kai PS4, thought that could just be due to the PCB being more responsive. I prefer the shorter throw of the Seimitsu LS-32, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:39 pm 


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I also saw "arcade sticks" without stick, just 4 buttons.
Anyone using that one ?

And what do the part for best stick cost, and what is the price of 4 of the best buttons ?
I think the stick cost way more, why is the price the same on these knob only units ?


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:43 pm 


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Jeneki wrote:
The secret is collecting more 5-cubes, which lowers the joystick dead zone.


Thanks for the good laugh this morning! My first thought, when I read the thread title was, "Wait, the Stage 3 Ketsui boss has an arcade stick?!"
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:53 pm 


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Nice contribution.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:28 pm 


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heli wrote:
I also saw "arcade sticks" without stick, just 4 buttons.


Do you mean the Hitbox, Mixbox or something completely different?

Also while I'm at it, what's people's opinion on the Mixbox? I mainly play on keyboard but I wanna play console shmups like Ketsui Deathtiny and ESP Ra. De. Psi with it, and the Mixbox seems like the best option for me (albeit very expensive).
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:08 pm 


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Yeah, those buttons arent so expensive, 12 buttons = 200 euro, no way.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:00 pm 


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BrianC wrote:
I like the stick in the RAPV Switch and RAP N. PS4 quite a bit. I managed to get past that tricky block part in 6-4 in Vs. SMB with the former. It's not bad for shmups either. The stick seems tighter compared to the earlier RAP4 Kai PS4, thought that could just be due to the PCB being more responsive. I prefer the shorter throw of the Seimitsu LS-32, though.


That's interesting, as I have the RAP V and the KAI and I can't really tell them apart. Now you have me super curious about the RAP N. Either way, I agree that they're great off-the-shelf sticks. I bought them with the intent to mod them, but ended up liking the base stick enough to not have to worry about it.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:59 pm 


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Call me a heretic, but I prefer a good controller. I have a hard time getting comfortable with a stick. Would probably be different if I played at my PC in front of a desk, but if i want to play in front of my TV i have to pull over the coffee table. Also not sure I'm in love with Seimitsu LS-32, but i'd probably like it more with an octogonal gate. I dunno--i've tried Seimitsu and Sanwa and I don't feel like either of them gave me a noticable amount of precision over a Hori dpad.

The Seimitsu stick is supposed to be clicky i think, but is it also supposed to be clunky? It makes some pretty burly clunking noises.
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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:17 pm 


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I've always just played with the stick resting in my lap, you could do that.
If you're better on d-pad though, no need, I suppose. That's one I could never get used to for shmups, the d-pad, maybe I just haven't found the right one yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:58 pm 


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Jonpachi wrote:
BrianC wrote:
I like the stick in the RAPV Switch and RAP N. PS4 quite a bit. I managed to get past that tricky block part in 6-4 in Vs. SMB with the former. It's not bad for shmups either. The stick seems tighter compared to the earlier RAP4 Kai PS4, thought that could just be due to the PCB being more responsive. I prefer the shorter throw of the Seimitsu LS-32, though.


That's interesting, as I have the RAP V and the KAI and I can't really tell them apart. Now you have me super curious about the RAP N. Either way, I agree that they're great off-the-shelf sticks. I bought them with the intent to mod them, but ended up liking the base stick enough to not have to worry about it.


They all use the same sticks and buttons, but later models of the V and variants have a more responsive pcb.


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 Post subject: Re: Ketsui boss 3 with arcade stick
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:37 pm 


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Jeneki wrote:
The secret is collecting more 5-cubes, which lowers the joystick dead zone.


Very underrated post.
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