Guidelines for forum scoring competitions?

[Special World]

I was *thinking* of holding another scoring competition with some small prizes. I had fun hosting the Eschatos competition way back when, but I made some rookie mistakes such as A) way too long of a window for entry and B) spreading the competition over multiple modes.

I know there is no ONE right way to do things, but I'd love to hear your input. I was thinking:
- one week (or two weeks max) deadline for posting a score
- official ports and games only, no MAME due to savestate abuse (i dont know how this works on M2 ports--do they still save your score to the scoreboard if you use savestates?)
- require photo of holding your name next to scoreboard for entry

Is that sensible? Whack? What else would be required? I'm pretty green to competitions so any info would be appreciated.

[Xyga]

rule #1 call you lawer every time you play so he can document and seal the stuff before you post.

PS: players w/ enough internet cred and fame are exempt

[Special World]

Hot tip

[Keade]

- official ports and games only, no MAME due to savestate abuse (i dont know how this works on M2 ports--do they still save your score to the scoreboard if you use savestates?)
- require photo of holding your name next to scoreboard for entry

A screen photo of a game running on original hardware is not more "trustable" than emulator play since it is trivially easy to run a game on an emulator plugged on a TV.
Of course I know most proofs can be faked, but this rule requires absolutely no effort to bypass.

[Special World]

That would depend on the game though, wouldn't it? If it were a competition for, say, Arcade+ in Esprade then that wouldn't be possible to fudge, i don't think.

[Keade]

Yes, but then that means you would only allow the currently unemulated console port ?

By the way, one thing I dislike the most in online contests is score (and information) hoarding which to me is the opposite of having fun together. Ofc I understand it is the most efficient strategy for winning though, can't really blame people for it. I am not sure what is the best way to tackle this issue, if you do consider it is one.

[Special World]

I feel like for most games players on this board post the knowledge they have... i don't see info hoarding as too big a thing here, but maybe I just don't know.

[clippa]

I'd just give everyone the benefit of the doubt and trust that people are playing fairly, myself.

It's just for fun after all. If there isn't a prize or anything, I mean, I can't imagine shmups forum kudos is worth all that much to anyone.
It'd just be about joining in, having fun and getting better at whichever game was chosen.

I don't see any reason not to just accept screenshots. I mean you could encourage recorded replays and other things, but not make them mandatory.

[Sumez]

I guess it depends on the goal of the competition, but I agree with what other people have chimed in about.

A community scoring competition should be about having fun first and foremost, and the best way to prevent cheating is IMO to not give people any incentive to cheat (even if that means dropping your idea of having prizes).
It really is better to trust people.

I also agree the score hoarding should be abolished. Of course it's impossible to completely prove and prevent, but I'd at least encourage all players engage in active discourse about scoring and survival techniques, to help other people embrace the game being played.
For this reason, maybe a team based structure as we typically see in STGTs isn't a good idea. All the knowledge accumulated by individual teams would be worth a lot more if shared with the world.

[Lags]

If you're going to have a little competition you should at least require .inp files and/or replays.

rule #1 call you lawer every time you play so he can document and seal the stuff before you post.
PS: players w/ enough internet cred and fame are exempt

*search author: xyga
*high-scores board: 33 matches (all from the Perikles thread)
*off-topic board: 2692 matches

Yep it checks out.

[Gus]

I'd just give everyone the benefit of the doubt and trust that people are playing fairly, myself.

It's just for fun after all. If there isn't a prize or anything, I mean, I can't imagine shmups forum kudos is worth all that much to anyone.
It'd just be about joining in, having fun and getting better at whichever game was chosen.

I don't see any reason not to just accept screenshots. I mean you could encourage recorded replays and other things, but not make them mandatory.

Awesome, it's another episode of bitching about what a drag verification is and how unlikely cheating is in any sort of competition. Looking forward to seeing even more shock/outrage at people who do inevitably cheat.

[Sumez]

10 posts into the thread and we're already doing this thing?

[clippa]

People cheat, and I know it's a trite cliche but they'd only be cheating themselves.

I'm guessing the whole idea of the competition would be for people to try out and get good at games they'd never considered playing before.
It'd all be about a community coming together and learning a game, sharing information and some friendly score chasing.

We're not talking about the gus-level shmup olympics where obviously you'd have folk doing it in the room live and having their pillows searched for tas machines!

[NegativeElectron]

Instead of just not allowing MAME, how about requiring videos or .inp files for top 10 scores with MAME? (or for scores above a certain amount depending on the game?)

[6t8k]

Those who want to cheat will find a way to do so – no countermeasure practicable for forum competitions will be able to prevent that.
For such temporary "friendlies", especially when there's no price involved, I think it's best to not take them so dead serious. Just have some good fun.

That's why I'm a friend of pragmatic implementations along the lines of what some others have added.


Some more concrete thoughts on the introductory proposals:

• One week seems a little short, I always found two weeks to be adequate. People should be able to post as many scores as they please to facilitate discussion of progress, the only requirement being that the scores must be achieved and posted during that period

• I also think that emulation in general should be allowed; else that would do more harm than good. This way people not owning a game can still partake, and prohibiting it wouldn't achieve much in terms of preventing cheating. Keade rightly hinted at the infeasibility of trying to identify emulated gameplay in each and every case. And even without emulation there's stuff like GameShark, modified ROMs, etc. pp.

• A photo of the in-game score with your name on it should be fine. An additional video, while not required, would be even better. But consider releasing it after the competition is over. Not to hoard information (you should instead write about your strategy), instead, this contributes to maintain the suspense until the end. If released during the competition I've found that this can sometimes stifle the remaining energy when others see the gameplay/some unexpected aspects are lifted. Of course, people can just look stuff up but w/e. Seen that often

[Special World]

I mean, aren't games that didn't get an arcade (and hence MAME) release safe from that? Like, how could you easily cheat on Eschatos, Mecha Ritz, etc?

[CloudyMusic]

Cheat Engine is easier to figure out than you might think.

[Lags]

Those who want to cheat will find a way to do so – no countermeasure practicable for forum competitions will be able to prevent that....
• A photo of the in-game score with your name on it should be fine. An additional video, while not required, would be even better.

A rule doesn't have to be perfect to be effective. You suggest photos because photos will mitigate some very lazy cheaters. Videos and .inp files will mitigate even more than photos, live streaming or hand-cams even more than videos, etc.
The idea should be how can we strike a balance that makes cheating a hassle, and gives us some means of identifying cheaters, while not ruining the spirit of 'friendly competition'?

[6t8k]

Special World:
Both of your examples were released on PC. It's very easy to cheat on PC (one exemplary option has been given), so - devil's advocate - let's forbid PC versions.
Then, I believe Eschatos on the 360 is adequately emulated. Switch emulation is also advancing in leaps and bounds.
Even disregarding that, either way, suppose we ban emulation and can detect infringement, what's left is playing the respective console versions on original hardware.
Offhand I know of 4 undetectable ways to cheat on these consoles, requiring varying levels of sophistication, some working for still images, some for video even. Going by a ban-oriented approach, the result would be that we have nothing left to play.

Disclaimer: I'm discussing this for the sake of argument; neither is it my intention to put everyone under a generalized suspicion, nor is it to help cheaters

Lags:
Exactly! Let me only specify more precisely that on one hand, contributors are of course always free to post additional material if they feel the need to improve their credibility. We're only talking about the conditions for participation.
On the other hand, I'm convinced that for the purpose of the kinds of competitions we're talking about, for aforementioned reasons, and knowing that some cheaters are willing to go the extra mile, it's moot to act on the assumption that a reasonable balance exists where cheating is made enough of a hassle, whatever enough means for you. Lest you may, ultimately, discourage honest players more than cheaters. Technology simply gives the latter a head-start, information is malleable etc.

[Special World]

So what I'm getting from yall is that:

Any platform can be cheated; therefore some amount of trust is required. Even so, some basic form of verification is still best because it means cheaters would have to exert *some* effort rather than just popping in and posting "hey i got a billion krillion zabillion points."

That about right?

[Sumez]

I see three possible ways:

1. It's a community event with the intention of getting people to play a game, push their scores, and share knowledge. It's possible that people will cheat, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
2. You care about cheaters for some reason, and therefore only allow games on unemulated consoles. This would probably prevent cheating, but also severely limit who is able to participate, as well as what games could potentially be played.
3. You care about cheaters, but trust that there's a limit to what extents people will go to for a fake score, so you require .inp files or live recordings/streams as proof.

I personally don't understand the headache for a purpose like this, but it really depends on what your ultimate goal is. If the goal is just to have fun, it's better to leave it at that.

[Special World]

Well, I would want to offer small prizes, ideally. I like to make art, so i'd probably make a drawing or prints. I'm not so skilled or confident as to think my art is amazing, but the goal would be to offer something little and nice as a reward. I don't really have confidence in my clout to draw people together by saying "You all should play this!!!" But who knows really. People seem to have liked my prizes from the Eschatos competition.

[6t8k]

I don't think you have to have enough clout. If you want to host it, just make a decision and we'll see how it turns out