Why are Dodonpachi and Ketsui so dominant across this genre?

[blossom]

I used to think Cave as a whole dominated the conversation, but that isn't quite true. While some of their other games like Mushi Futari and ESP Ra.De. are discussed occasionally, and the latter is due in large part to a recent port, others like Progear and Guwange are dismissed.

I've noticed on shmup related Discord servers, and browsing this forum it's not too different, that someone trying to talk about a game that isn't Ketsui will be met with silence 90% of the time. And if it were merely silence and nothing more, I suppose I could deal with it: OK, people don't want anything to do with these games. The problem is when you get something like where Mark_MSX says of Blue Revolver in one of his YouTube videos that it's an "enjoyable side game for when you're burnt out on Dodonpachi", this attitude that anything else is a diversion.

What would need to happen for more games to be taken as seriously as DDP or Ketsui? Not even asking for optimal score chasing, even more discussion about clearing games would be nice. Also I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, probably others have asked this same question.

[BurlyHeart]

The problem is when you get something like where Mark_MSX says of Blue Revolver in one of his YouTube videos that it's an "enjoyable side game for when you're burnt out on Dodonpachi", this attitude that anything else is a diversion.

I'm disappointed to read that.

[Special World]

Imo Dodonpachi DOJ is p much a structurally perfect game with a great aesthetic and is great fun. Ketsui's kinda a mystery to me... the graphics are kinda ugly and I don't love the way it plays. Still a very good game though.

As far as Cave goes, Futari Black, DOJ, Espgaluda 2, and Esprade are pretty tops. Guwange has great graphics but isn't as fun to me. Progear never got a port so I haven't played it as much.

[bigbadboaz]

I think your assumptions are too severe based on the "silence" you describe. More likely, it's lack of exposure and the fact that far fewer people are familiar with anything outside of DDP and Ketsui. The entire DDP series is one of the most iconic in the entire genre, and Ketsui over the years - in addition to getting several ports which keep it in the spotlight - somehow seemed to rise above all the other Cave titles as a cult classic within an already cult genre. Everything else, people just probably have nothing to contribute.

The forum's been going for a long time and I would agree that it once seemed Cave itself dominated discussion. Years ago many more of their titles had active talk as well; that was just a function of them being current and everyone in the forum paying attention at the same time. Over time, membership changes, familiarity wanes, and only the most famous titles speak to enough people for a conversation to be able to stay alive.

You mention Progear and that's case in point. 2-4 years after its release it was brought up all the time - how great it was, how it stood out as a Cave hori, how the license was obscure and we'd probably never see it in the home. It's certainly not a game people didn't respect. But now in 2020, just as people were lamenting then, it's super-obscure, got buried in the arcades, and nobody in the grand scheme knows about it to talk about it.

[Sumez]

I don't feel like Ketsui is that much prevalent compared to other Cave titles?
Maybe compared to Progear and Guwange, but I think those are probably also some of the least liked Cave games in general. Aside from that, it's probably just the fact that it's an extremely good game with a lot of immediate appeal, as was just discussed in another thread. And of course you can never really dismiss Cave's status as the standard bearer of the genre for more than a decade after everyone else stopped producing shooters for the arcade.

In the case of DDP, I'd say it's a lot of different factors, that you can't ignore. First of all, it's a long running series with like... 7(?) unique entries, which by itself makes it a lot more prevalent than almost anything else in the genre. And DoDonPachi "1" was like the "default" bullet hell game for a long time, often cited as the first real game in the genre. No matter how many other bullet hell games show up out there, it won't ever diminish the historical impact of the series. Quite often you might even casually mention DDP as a placeholder for all Cave titles, which I guess is kind of the role that it plays in that YouTube video you mentioned.

[CyberAngel]

The problem is when you get something like where Mark_MSX says of Blue Revolver in one of his YouTube videos that it's an "enjoyable side game for when you're burnt out on Dodonpachi", this attitude that anything else is a diversion.

Looks like someone is just unable to see value in things outside of what he already knows. Sad but nothing new, really.

What would need to happen for more games to be taken as seriously as DDP or Ketsui? Not even asking for optimal score chasing, even more discussion about clearing games would be nice. Also I have the feeling I'm beating a dead horse, probably others have asked this same question.

People would need to get their own taste in shmups instead of just parroting what the cool kids say are the coolest games.

Seriously though, these two (three? four? I'd say this easily applies DOJ and DFK as well) seem to have just the right blend of flashiness and intuitiveness in their design and game systems. They have gimmicks that are easy to grasp but take long to perfect, while the games themselves feel engaging all the time, both for newbies and those who already understand them. I'm not really interested in them myself, but from the short time I delved into them I got the feeling that I would have no trouble to grind them until a 1-all without getting bored over a long time. That style seems to be just what your average shmupper would be likely to get into. In comparison, most other CAVE games rely on tougher or more complicated gimmicks, and while they might feel more satisfying for those that are interested in them, it also makes them less likely to have that wider appeal. This applies to prominent non-CAVE games as well.

As a personal anecdote, DDP did stand out to me even back when I wasn't into shmups at all and just tried out loads and loads of different MAME stuff, shmups included. That's how I learned about other CAVE games and slowly got into the genre (before delving into the abyss that is Touhou). I do observe the same constantly engaging style in Ketsui and later DDP games, so no wonder people consider them the quintessential shmups.

So, to answer your question - not much can be done, probably. Other games are already made the way they are, and if it doesn't make them widely recognized then nothing will. The only thing I can think of is for anyone interested in more obscure stuff to be on the lookout for new people interested in it and giving them some attention and encouragement. Any positive feedback in cases when you can expect none does wonders, y'know. ...But that would require shmuppers to grow a heart and give a fuck, and we already know how likely THAT is.

[Sumez]

In comparison, most other CAVE games rely on tougher or more complicated gimmicks, and while they might feel more satisfying for those that are interested in them, it also makes them less likely to have that wider appeal.

I don't really believe this. At the very least, DeathSmiles, Futari, and EspGaluda (1) have a similar appeal, if not better. Dodonpachi chaining is actually kinda esoteric.

[Queen Charlene]

honestly i think this a thing with all genres. STGs have DDP and Ketsui, platformers have Mario and Megaman, RPGs have Final Fantasy, etc etc etc. i think it's just the combo of them being really good games and being the forefathers of the respective genres they are in. the games are very fundamentally sound and iconic for being the original "good games".

[qmish]

Isn't Ketsui a game that was originally met with very lukewarm reception (around release), but over the years it became THE fan favorite title, and also got huge amount of merchandise and support?

As for DDP, for me personally it's one of symbolic pinnacles of genre, at least One of "essentials". But some people may never like it and prefer different shmups, of course.

[Sumez]

I don't recall Ketsui ever having a "lukewarm" reception (Ibara though...).
If anything it was heralded as the unattainable Cave game you could only try by going to Japan and finding an arcade, or importing a super expensive PCB, due to how long it went without any ports (and now it's probably the most ported of their games, how ironic ).

It got put on a pedestal almost right away, and it was probably easy to consider it overrated if it weren't also such a good game.

[qmish]

I don't recall Ketsui ever having a "lukewarm" reception

I can't find any arguments, as that statement is what i was told by a friend who was cave fan and collector for years, so it's "believe or not". Maybe it was about japanese audience, perhaps.

[Juju Kenobi]

I am sorry, I usually don't like to rant but today, enough is enough.

Blossom, where are the videos explaining how great Blue revolver ?
WHere are the discord servers dedicated to the game ? (Oh wait, there is one, Mark made one)

What's your contribution to the community ?

All you do is complain, complain and complain even more. The most ironic thing here, is that Mark went out of his way, made a video to explain how great Blue Revolver is, and you decide to chose one sentence out of contex to throw shade at him.

If you want people to stop treating you like bitch, stop acting like one.

Do you really think there would be a problem if you said "I play Blue Revolver most of the time, but when I feel burnt out, I like to play DDP" ?
The truth is no, we wouldn't care.

Here, you are just trying to sentence Mark on a public place just for his taste. Personally, I had enough.

I can already see you playing the victim, crying everywhere on the forum and on reddit to say how mean the community is with you, but maybe you should take a look in the miror. You shit on people hard work. You keep attacking people personally and trying to make them feel guilty for their taste. In my book, I call this kind of person an asshole.

There is absolutely no problem in playing more obscure, less popular game or genre, but you can't really complain if you can't find many people to talk about it.
Stop being a drama queen and grow up.

And here are some facts that prove how stupid your logic is :

- Mark is the person who spent more hour than any person in the world playing Danmaku Unlimited 3. Pretty obscure indie game in my book.

- Kiwi who has all overall Blue Revolver World records plays many CAVE games, there is no incompatibility there. You don't need to hate one to love the other.

Then talking about Progear, I am currently learning the intricacies of Progear scoring system and I have a 100+ pages written guide that I planned to publish in a few months. But seeing all the bullshit you say all the time, I don't feel like publishing it anymore.

[Sumez]

It most likely is, since most people didn't play Ketsui until the X360 port came out. I should have mentioned missing PGM emulation as a major factor, too.

I've never heard of Ketsui getting a "bad" reputation in the arcades though? Ibara and Pink Sweets weren't great. Futari was kinda lukewarm until the 1.5 patch I think.

[DoomsDave]

Mark_MSX says of Blue Revolver in one of his YouTube videos that it's an "enjoyable side game for when you're burnt out on Dodonpachi"

For him personally that might be true but if he's saying it in a way that Blue Revolver isn't a worthy game to "grind" then it's a pretty shit opinion.

[Special World]

Dodonpachi is probably just his main flame. Saying something is a "worthy" side game doesn't have to be an indictment... i won't play ANY game unless it's really quite good.

Wish Blue Revolver would get a port--i hate playing on my PC because it reminds me of work, for whatever reason. The game looks stellar.

And yeah, as others noted, Dodonpachi is really quite a big deal, even if you don't like it. And talking about the DFK meh is a pasttime here.

Wait until Batrider, Truxton, Batsugun, Ibara, Espgaluda get a port and see if we don't talk about them. Really i'm surprised at how totally incredible ESPrade is. Shouldn't be!

[Lags]

Wait until...Batsugun port!

Invest in Batsugun stock.

[CloudyMusic]

It seems like half of your posts are on the topic of "I'm not happy that certain games are more popular than others."

Advocate for the games that you enjoy, tell people how great they are. Stream them, post videos, talk about your experiences. But that's the most any individual can do.

These sorts of posts that complain about the collective community's tastes are just tedious.

[heli]

There is also Dopachi.
Dodonpachi is the first wowwie game from cave.
The rest is made after that, basicly they copy the whole engine and improving.
It is some sort of benchmark.

by the way there are many dodonpachi games, so it is normal they talk more about it forgetting mentioning the version they play.

[DDDP]

1. DDP and Ketsui are both "AAA" shmups. If the topic was first person shooters, you'd hear a lot about Halo, half Life, CoD, and so forth. Bringing up Starseige: Tribes or SW Dark Forces or other lesser-known FPSs would also be met with crickets.

2. They're good games.

3. The phenomenon of popular games remaining popular isn't unique to shmups. CoD, Minecraft, and GTA5 still dominate the sales charts. In a niche genre like shmups, there is the added problem of players not knowing about the super-niche stuff + not wanting to invest time into "inferior" games. Ketsui and any DDP are pretty safe bets if you are a newcomer, in terms of available info and a fanbase to interact with.

[Exy]

I've noticed on shmup related Discord servers, and browsing this forum it's not too different, that someone trying to talk about a game that isn't Ketsui will be met with silence 90% of the time.

You know that isn't true.

Here and on the main shmup discord, tons of different shmups get discussed. There was a fairly long discussion about fucking raptor call of the shadows about a week ago.

[M.Knight]

The comment from Mark MSX you have referred to in the OP is clearly misinterpreted. Mark MSX is hugely supportive of modern indie shmups. He has played and reviewed several of them (such as Blue Revolver, Rolling Gunner and Danmaku Unlimited 3) for The Electric Underground and praised them for their qualities. He organized a ZeroRanger scoring competition a while ago and often tries to mention it whenever possible to raise awareness. He did long interviews with shmup devs such as trap15 & ptoing for Fire Lancer or System Erasure for ZeroRanger. If there's one person who is doing everything possible so that we don't only talk about CAVE oldies and give a chance to newer shmups, it's him.

So he is not saying that Blue Revolver ain't worth playing when there's DDP. Just that DDP is his own personal main game, and that he plays Blue Revolver a bit more casually in comparison. That's it.

[CRI]

first off all +1 to what juju and cloudy said.
blossom, please stop focusing on things you hate and start putting that energy into things you do like.
especially when the things only exist in your head.
we were both at calice cup and ketsui lost to same same same because people don't like how complex cave scoring is.
people would rather play same same same which is the most punishing and frustrating game ever instead of ketsui.
also every time there is a thread about dodonpachi the majority of the replys are that they don't like chaining and that stage long chains are too punishing.
but everyone that did give dodonpachi chaining a try started to love it because getting a full chain is one of the most satisfying thing ever.
btw: why do you always try to make mark look bad for what he said?
he did a whole episode about how awesome blue revolver is.
what did you do for the game?

about ketsui
yes there was a short time after the pcb release were the game was not very popular and the pcb price went down to 200€.
but that didn't last long and people realized how good it is and it went up to 600€ pretty fast.

[Connor]

Because they're two of the greatest shmups that have ever been made.

[XoPachi]

I dunno. Great games.
Typically what happens with any genre that has it's staples.

[blossom]

Ketsui and any DDP are pretty safe bets if you are a newcomer, in terms of available info and a fanbase to interact with.

This is the key point why Juju, CloudyMusic, and CRI make me scratch my head. "If you want exposure to games you love, talk about them." What good does that do when the popularity of DDP and Ketsui are self-fulfilling prophecies, in which the popular become more popular, and no one wants to bat an eye at a game that will distract them from their "main game"? It's the kind of popularity where you're tempted to say can't beat em join em because at least I'd have a chance for discussion about a game, some sense of community. There are plenty of others who suck at Ketsui and could share low tier ideas: here is a safe route that gets you 200m. There is no one else who sucks at Hellsinker or Dragon Blaze because no one else is playing these games or played them long ago and are much better than me.

[qmish]

You give up on talking about lesser spread games?

[Moglar5k]

This is the key point why Juju, CloudyMusic, and CRI make me scratch my head. "If you want exposure to games you love, talk about them." What good does that do when the popularity of DDP and Ketsui are self-fulfilling prophecies

When you were streaming/talking about edens aegis, it made me kinda want to try the game (now this never actually happened, although I am the type to just stick to a single game for a billion years), however you just complaining non stop about how much people love cave/ignore other games has done absolutely nothing to motivate me to try other games. The former method won't make the games you love the most popular games in the genre, but it sure as hell is more effective than this abysmal method.

[Mortificator]

Searching the Shmups Chat forum, message text only...

"Dodonpachi" - 9,627 matches
"R-Type" - 10,468 matches
"Ketsui" - 12,472 matches
"Gradius" - 15,289 matches

[Nixonesque]

Searching the Shmups Chat forum, message text only...

"Dodonpachi" - 9,627 matches
"R-Type" - 10,468 matches
"Ketsui" - 12,472 matches
"Gradius" - 15,289 matches

That's not accounting for Dodonpachi being abbreviated to DDP.

[Queen Charlene]

i have to say that making any game popular in a genre is always going to take work from the fans. posting one or two topics or talking about it once or twice isn't really enough.

if you really feel passionate and strongly about these non-DDP/Ketsui STGs, you gotta be the one to fire up the discussion, and you have to be willing to try to sustain the discussion, even when it's not as popular or it seems like people "don't care". make topics, make videos, upload replays, participate in the high score tables, and be willing to show people why your game is cool.

stream it, make videos showcasing your routes, talk about and research the scoring system, talk to the developer (if possible, which in indie games, is more often than not a pretty simple thing to do), spread the word.

this is basically how the FGC works and i don't see why STGs can't work the same way either. you gotta build and sustain the sub-communities of the stuff you care about.

and even afterwards, ultimately, your game may not be as popular or as talked about as the fore-bearers of the genre (which makes sense... they're the OGs for a reason) no matter how hard you work, but you can't let that demotivate you and these kinds of arguments/posts complaining about them usually won't help your case very much. people want to see action, not complaining.