Why are Dodonpachi and Ketsui so dominant across this genre?

[iconoclast]

[blossom]

and even afterwards, ultimately, your game may not be as popular or as talked about as the fore-bearers of the genre (which makes sense... they're the OGs for a reason)

Twice now you've called Cave the "forefathers" of the genre or something similar. This is the other part of this which is so frustrating. It's like people actually think Cave invented the genre, and that there aren't dozens of good games developed before Donpachi - from developers like Capcom, Konami, Taito, Irem, NMK, and yes Toaplan because I'm sure some of you are sarcastically thinking "...but Batsugun is what really invented the genre." Not to mention console exclusives which are typically ignored for the simple reason there isn't a complex scoring system, as if each and every game needs to be studied like a calculus textbook.

[Queen Charlene]

Mario wasn't the first platformer either. plenty of platformers existed before Mario. but it IS the one that got the critical reception and basically introduced what we know as the "modern platformer" to the world. that is hard facts, that is not opinion. "fore-father" does not inherently mean "first ever," but it WAS the first with the critical reception that helped introduce the modern formula to gaming.

[finisherr]

The simple answer is that the two titles contain the traditional characteristics of what make good, "modern" shooting games:

* Two loops: second loop unforgiving, yet obviously clearable
* Enemy destruction and player fighter power is satisfying due to good sound design and visual effects.
* Ships, tanks, helicopters. Keeping to tradition makes the games feel more like mainstay staples.
* "Manic" feeling during play mostly attributed to progressively increasing enemy fire with just enough room to dodge reactively when learning. With these titles, you could hypothetically react dodge most of the levels with a good degree of skill and this induces that manic feeling when learning the game.
* Lots of reference material (DVDs, strategy guides, prometheus' shooting game guide, legendary superplays)
* No scoring gimmicks. That is to say that the scoring does not rely on remembering strange isolated techniques. All techniques follow similar patterns for their respective titles.

[Sumez]

Mario wasn't the first platformer either. plenty of platformers existed before Mario.

You could argue that Donkey Kong, featuring Mario, is in fact the first platformer.
You could also easily argue that Dodonpachi was in fact the first bullet hell. Sure there were other earlier games sharing similar characteristics, but DDP was definitely the one crossing the threshold causing people to start using the term.

If Cave didn't invent bullet hell, who did? Zun? Yagawa?

[third_strike]

Pure herd behavior

[DDDP]

Ketsui and any DDP are pretty safe bets if you are a newcomer, in terms of available info and a fanbase to interact with.

This is the key point why Juju, CloudyMusic, and CRI make me scratch my head. "If you want exposure to games you love, talk about them." What good does that do when the popularity of DDP and Ketsui are self-fulfilling prophecies, in which the popular become more popular, and no one wants to bat an eye at a game that will distract them from their "main game"? It's the kind of popularity where you're tempted to say can't beat em join em because at least I'd have a chance for discussion about a game, some sense of community. There are plenty of others who suck at Ketsui and could share low tier ideas: here is a safe route that gets you 200m. There is no one else who sucks at Hellsinker or Dragon Blaze because no one else is playing these games or played them long ago and are much better than me.

Ketsui and DDP are both old. Like, as a point of comparison, Ketsui came out a year before Half Life 2 and Halo 2. Daioujou came out the same year as Smash Bros Melee. These games have stood the test of time in spite of significant hurdles standing in between players and these games. Dragon Blaze wasn't available for PC or for console until recently (Switch port). Hellsinker is ultra-niche.

In the same way that more people play Halo compared to No One Lives Forever 2, more people are gonna play banner titles like Ketsui compared to Hellsinker. Is what it is.

Start a discussion about your favorite game. Engender a sense of community.

It wasn't until recently that people began watching speedruns on the internet. Play the games and attract the audience. The desire for your favorite game to be everyone's favorite game is hardly a new phenomenon on videogame forums, but it still falls victim to the same gaps in logic.

Shmups are ostensibly aimed at loners anyway. Individuals will generally be sinking many hours into a solo experience. You expect this sort of gamer to result in a chatty community that is alive with conversation about each and every shmup? There are hi scores to chase.

[MathU]

Two loops: second loop unforgiving, yet obviously clearable

Loops are a lazy, money-sucking garbage design and always have been. I'll take a difficulty selector over retreading the same game all day every day. I generally consider arcade environments to have strong selective pressures for good game design, but this is one example where they have always failed. There's only a handful of scrolling shooters (or games in general) that have ever done loops in an interesting way, and that absolutely doesn't include any of CAVE's braindead autistic loops.

* No scoring gimmicks. That is to say that the scoring does not rely on remembering strange isolated techniques. All techniques follow similar patterns for their respective titles.

And you can't be serious on this one, especially in Dodonpachi's case. Rote memorization of esoteric pathways is the defining feature of that game's awful scoring system. Dodonpachi and Ketsui together are representative of CAVE's tendency to shoehorn in gimmicky afterthought scoring systems that feel detached from the main game.

Pure herd behavior

Been trying to articulate a snarky reply to this thread for a while but you finally found the word I've been grasping for. The outsized popularity of Dodonpachi and Ketsui can be attributed entirely due to attraction to spectacle and herd mentality.

[Special World]

Rather than pile-on and anti-pile on, I'm wondering what your favorite STGs are, Blossom?

Mine are:
- Mushi Futari Black Label: the graphics are candy coated, the scoring items are beautiful, the patterns are great, and the scoring is so fast and furious. A lot more fluid than vanilla Futari, imo
- Eschatos: so epic, a beautiful narrative arc in a textless game. When you blast into space and the tinkling music plays and you see the millions of stars--beautiful. It's also ham-packed with content, has a GREAT classic-hori style gimmick ship, and seamlessly blends the entire scope of what it means to be a scrolling shooter.
- Mars Matrix: brilliant design, brilliant black hole mechanic, brilliant scoring, and a great incentive tl SCORE WELL.
- Mecha Ritz: I haven't played this as much yet, but the adaptive difficulty is SO BRILLIANT and the music is SO GOOD and the ship control it twitchy and fun and the glitch aesthetic is PERFECT. This is one of the most brilliantly realized aesthetics in all of gaming, and the gameplay slays too.

[BIL]

Dragon Blaze wasn't available for PC or for console until recently (Switch port).

It was on PS2, previously (NTSCJ double pack with Sol Divide, PAL standalone release).

[Queen Charlene]

braindead autistic

i don't think you know what either of these words mean

[Lags]

1 LOOP GOOD, 2 LOOPS BAD! Money-sucking!

The correct term is "quarter-munchers."

Rote memorization!
Gimmick!
Herd mentality!

I was gonna give your bait a 5/10 but you forgot "artificial difficulty" so the best I can do is a 4/10.

[Prales]

.

[CStarFlare]

There's only a handful of scrolling shooters (or games in general) that have ever done loops in an interesting way

As someone who doesn't really do loops, I'm curious to hear your examples here.

[chum]

There's only a handful of scrolling shooters (or games in general) that have ever done loops in an interesting way

As someone who doesn't really do loops, I'm curious to hear your examples here.

He's probably referring to the likes of Cho Ren Sha, Sengoku Ace, R-Type, or Plus Alpha.
These loops are barely a step away from identical to the first loop. This is clearly intentional. It's a meta-commentary on the state of loops in shmups, and the futility and uselessness of gaming. This is much more interesting than the Omote and Ura loops in Ketsui. Jesus, those are uninteresting and they have such tacked on scoring mechanics. Loops truly died in the 90s. At first, loops were meant to extend the play-session in order to pay as little money as possible and have as few people playing the game as possible. This is an inside-job, a ploy created by those that wanted to see fighting games bloom and flourish. They regrettably succeeded. Then came the meta commentaries. Those are very interesting. Then came awful games like Ketsui and Dodonpachi with their rote memorization, detached scoring system, and worst of all, their braindead autistic loops.

The rest is history.

[EmperorIng]

There's only a handful of scrolling shooters (or games in general) that have ever done loops in an interesting way

As someone who doesn't really do loops, I'm curious to hear your examples here.

ZeroRanger, because you fight new bosses

[MathU]

There's only a handful of scrolling shooters (or games in general) that have ever done loops in an interesting way

As someone who doesn't really do loops, I'm curious to hear your examples here.

Kingdom Grandprix and Gradius Rebirth are the big ones, each has a completely independent set of levels for each loop. I feel like there might be a couple other games with loops I respect but I can't recall them. Maybe.

[CyberAngel]

Then talking about Progear, I am currently learning the intricacies of Progear scoring system and I have a 100+ pages written guide that I planned to publish in a few months. But seeing all the bullshit you say all the time, I don't feel like publishing it anymore.

So much for following your own advice.

Now imagine having the same frustration every time you post something about a more obscure game you like. That's how the less aloof of us feel like when they're met with complete silence in that situation. While some shmuppers may be happy with just playing on their own, others do appreciate the social component of having this hobby, as secondary as it may be. And for those, there's no worse discouragement than a total lack of reaction. What's the point of contributing to a community that doesn't acknowledge what you do at all?

So I do want to ask everyone something. Would it kill you to display even a token amount of interest in the more obscure stuff that you've played? Lone newcomers trying them once a few years aren't enough to keep them alive. Or was your interest in those games so shallow that you don't care anymore? Because if so then blossom does have a point here.

[Sumez]

Ketsui and DDP are both old. Like, as a point of comparison, Ketsui came out a year before Half Life 2 and Halo 2. Daioujou came out the same year as Smash Bros Melee.

Half Life 2
Halo 2
Melee

old

Jesus christ, trying to give me a mid-life crisis here?

a completely independent set of levels for each loop.

Is that a loop then?

[Lags]

Now imagine having the same frustration every time you post something about a more obscure game you like. That's how the less aloof of us feel like when they're met with complete silence in that situation. While some shmuppers may be happy with just playing on their own, others do appreciate the social component of having this hobby, as secondary as it may be. And for those, there's no worse discouragement than a total lack of reaction. What's the point of contributing to a community that doesn't acknowledge what you do at all?

Sometimes the person posting is the reason no one bothers replying. Not necessarily the obscure, high-brow shmup they are discussing.

[Bananamatic]

Serious question, what % of shmup players is somewhere on the spectrum and not near the neurotypical end?

[DDDP]

Dragon Blaze wasn't available for PC or for console until recently (Switch port).

It was on PS2, previously (NTSCJ double pack with Sol Divide, PAL standalone release).

True, I forgot about that. Suffice it to say (based on the current price and the scarcity) it didn't do much to get Dragon Blaze out there for the masses to try.

Ketsui and DDP are both old. Like, as a point of comparison, Ketsui came out a year before Half Life 2 and Halo 2. Daioujou came out the same year as Smash Bros Melee.

Jesus christ, trying to give me a mid-life crisis here?

Sorry lol

Just pointing out that the games have survived despite the odds being against them. Market performance -- even in a niche market -- counts for something.

[CyberAngel]

Sometimes the person posting is the reason no one bothers replying. Not necessarily the obscure, high-brow shmup they are discussing.

This is a rotten way to approach it not just because it's straight-up petty towards the person, but also because it'll end up signaling any newcomer that nobody cares about said shmup, curbing the chances of them starting a new discussion about it in the first place. Not an effective way to keep the genre alive, now is it.

[donluca]

this is basically how the FGC works and i don't see why STGs can't work the same way either. you gotta build and sustain the sub-communities of the stuff you care about.

It's curious you mention FGC when this is exactly a prime example of how the loyalty to a certain brand has doomed any other fighting game even before it was released.

Street Fighter keeps spiraling into doom, oscillating between games with absurdly high skill ceiling (SFIV 1-frame links, FADC and invincible backdashes shenanigans) to a way more bland approach (SFV) and in spite of this, it's still the most played game in the FGC alongside Tekken.
King of Fighters, after reaching its pinnacle in KOFXIII has shot itself in the foot with KOFXIV, GG has gone full n00b friendly and MK is still played because of its brand and history, while Tekken is the only one really worth mentioning because it has been steadily improving and it's still rightfully at the top of the food chain.

What about the others? Yagatarasu never really stood a chance despite being an excellent and visual appealing game, Skullgirls which is MvC2 and CvS2 lovechild which has outstanding balance and game mechanics and has been glorified left and right has completely disappeared, UNIEL is on life support and the new Dragon Ball game is already losing traction, hanging by a thread thanks to being, well, a Dragon Ball game.
EDIT: oh and let's not forget about the new Fighting Layer EX by Arika, which got mad hype at the beginning and now has completely disappeared, just to throw a 2.5D game in the mix.

Fighting Games are literally the best example to explain how certain name brands have survived thanks to their popularity, but at least they are still getting updated/refreshed with new games.

Shmups took the FG situation and brought it to its extreme, where we don't even have new DDPs/Ketsuis/Mushis coming out every 5-6 years, instead the best we can ever hope for are ports faithful enough to the original games.

in FGC terms, it's like we'd still be playing Super Turbo and KoF98 (which we still are to some extent) because we never got third strike/SFIV and newer KoFs.

This is why we need new DDPs to bring shmups to the front page of the videogame community and have them relevant again: capitalizing on names which are most known so that other shmups can benefit from the added exposure.
Except that I don't think that CAVE/DDP has ever reached the same popularity of, say, Capcom/Street Fighter II.
So even if it'll happen, it'll still be a hard time.

[qmish]

Fighting Layer EX by Arika, which got mad hype at the beginning and now has completely disappeared

mediocre title for Street Fighter EX fanboys.

Much worse than original Fighting Layer game which was very solid.

Well, i doubt many original devs still at arika, so it was expected.

[DDDP]

this is basically how the FGC works and i don't see why STGs can't work the same way either. you gotta build and sustain the sub-communities of the stuff you care about.

It's curious you mention FGC when this is exactly a prime example of how the loyalty to a certain brand has doomed any other fighting game even before it was released.

Street Fighter keeps spiraling into doom, oscillating between games with absurdly high skill ceiling (SFIV 1-frame links, FADC and invincible backdashes shenanigans) to a way more bland approach (SFV) and in spite of this, it's still the most played game in the FGC alongside Tekken.
King of Fighters, after reaching its pinnacle in KOFXIII has shot itself in the foot with KOFXIV, GG has gone full n00b friendly and MK is still played because of its brand and history, while Tekken is the only one really worth mentioning because it has been steadily improving and it's still rightfully at the top of the food chain.

What about the others? Yagatarasu never really stood a chance despite being an excellent and visual appealing game, Skullgirls which is MvC2 and CvS2 lovechild which has outstanding balance and game mechanics and has been glorified left and right has completely disappeared, UNIEL is on life support and the new Dragon Ball game is already losing traction, hanging by a thread thanks to being, well, a Dragon Ball game.
EDIT: oh and let's not forget about the new Fighting Layer EX by Arika, which got mad hype at the beginning and now has completely disappeared, just to throw a 2.5D game in the mix.

Fighting Games are literally the best example to explain how certain name brands have survived thanks to their popularity, but at least they are still getting updated/refreshed with new games.

Shmups took the FG situation and brought it to its extreme, where we don't even have new DDPs/Ketsuis/Mushis coming out every 5-6 years, instead the best we can ever hope for are ports faithful enough to the original games.

in FGC terms, it's like we'd still be playing Super Turbo and KoF98 (which we still are to some extent) because we never got third strike/SFIV and newer KoFs.

This is why we need new DDPs to bring shmups to the front page of the videogame community and have them relevant again: capitalizing on names which are most known so that other shmups can benefit from the added exposure.
Except that I don't think that CAVE/DDP has ever reached the same popularity of, say, Capcom/Street Fighter II.
So even if it'll happen, it'll still be a hard time.

Excluding the M2 ports for the moment, what about Raiden V? What about Gradius ReBirth? What about the latest Ikaruga ports (I've lost count)?

Touhou carved out its own corner of the market. Space Invaders and Galaga get revivals / collections. There are modern takes on old styles (Resogun, Ex Machina) which according to the developer were insufficient to keep their company profitable. It raises the question as to what games we are still missing, because if Gradius and Raiden can't stoke a fire why would DDP 6? Why would DDP 6 matter when 4 and 5 didn't?

Mobile gaming was likely the last good shot this genre had at coming back to life in the same way that dedicated puzzle games sprang back to life, but the opportunity was squandered.

[Kiwi]

I mean

is this really something worth some of us getting so mad about?

[Elixir]

Won't someone PLEASE think about the 100+ page Progear guide at stake here? Please guys, I need this.

[Juju Kenobi]

Won't someone PLEASE think about the 100+ page Progear guide at stake here? Please guys, I need this.

The guide will come out, don't worry. Not anytime soon, but somewhere around June/July probably. I calmed down now.

Blossom has always been a drama queen, so the complaint about popular games being popular was nothing new. For me, this thread was only a disguise to personally attack Mark based on straight up lies and to have other members of the community to gang up on him.

You may disagree with what Mark says or does, but you can't deny the fact that he's working his ass off to provide content for the community.
At least people should respect that.

Cherry picking a sentence out of a video saying how great Blue Revolver is, just to say "Look how Mark trashtalks the game" is definitely something special.
It's even worse when you think that Blossom purposely watched the whole video just to catch that sentence out of context.

[Mark_MSX]

I'd be offended, but this this accusation of me putting down Blue Revolver is so absurd it makes me laugh. I have shilled and complimented Blue Revolver so often and so regualrly I might as well be part of the marketing team. The context of that quote was that everyone should play Blue Revolver, even if you are knee deep in some other shmup. The fact that you can go from playing DDP for hours on end to then unwind with some Blue Revolver is a great compliment to the well-designed gameplay. I honestly don't see how you guys could twist my thoughts on Blue Revovler as somehow putting the game down, but the forum finds a way to be offended X-D. The ironic thing is that I sort of see where Blossom is coming from, having played Danmaku Unlimited 3 for hundreds of hours -- a game that no one else cares about ha (other than Pazzy, who has dissapeared). But I don't know ha, if I'm the villain of the forum these days I can probably learn to enjoy that

Cheers!