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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:45 pm 


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Oh no, trust me it's also a dumb idea. AAA shmups in 2020 would have cut scenes, dead air, probably little focus on scoring - so the polar opposite of what people typically want out of this genre. Essentially, you'd see a lot more games like Sine Mora, and I think we all know the general opinion about that game.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:17 pm 


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Queen Charlene wrote:
STGs are specifically tailored towards scoring as the main competitive aspect, so having unlockable content tied to progression and an experience system in the same vein would have to be in the form of something that doesn't limit access of the game's mechanics to people who put in more time, because this would also simultaneously devalue the content that's included in the game from the beginning. why would you use a puny level 1 ship that can't break 100million pts when you could just use your level 10 ship with auto-refilling homing lasers that can full chain a stage effortlessly?.


I don't think an STG with unlocks is necessarily impossible to implement; there are several good examples out there in the form of stuff like the unlock system in Judgement Silversword and Eschatos, or the systems found in Ginga Force and Danmaku Unlimited 3. The key is that you can't have have upwards, linear progression. Any unlocks have to be sideways, in the sense that it's not necessarily that you're unlocking stronger stuff to use, but rather you unlock different, more varied equipment options or shot types to use. Any of the base equipment should be capable of tackling the game for instance, with newer stuff being perhaps more exotic weapons mechanically, but not necessarily much stronger.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:45 pm 


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blossom wrote:
Oh no, trust me it's also a dumb idea Essentially, you'd see a lot more games like Sine Mora, and I think we all know the general opinion about that game.


Ironically sine mora still the shmup with best 3d gfx even 8 years later though. I know it's silly fact and many won't even care, but still it's kinda "eh, what the fkk?" :)

*astebreed came close, but sine mora sometimes has gorgeous details in backgrounds that rivals attention that you had in best pixel art shmups of golden era; and everything else... dbcs is basically remix of psp game, and raiden v, as usual, looked one console generation backwards (and even had fewer polys on some models and overall less clear picture than raiden iv)

**ether vapor plays better than astebreed btw, right? More aggressive
*** I always remind myself about details that you see in great dimahoo or batrider and imagine how it could look on ue4 or smth
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:56 pm 


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blossom wrote:
Oh no, trust me it's also a dumb idea. AAA shmups in 2020 would have cut scenes, dead air, probably little focus on scoring - so the polar opposite of what people typically want out of this genre. Essentially, you'd see a lot more games like Sine Mora, and I think we all know the general opinion about that game.


That's a glaring example, sure, but think about what Capcom did with Psikyo, publishing Gunbird 2, working with Takumi to publish Giga Wing and Mars Matrix, or working with Cave to publish Progear. That's more along the lines of what I'm thinking of. G.Rev and Treasure worked with Konami on Gradius V, and it's a great game. Those are the kinds of partnerships I'm thinking of. I don't think a shmup created by a AAA would automatically suffer from bloat. The possibility would be there, for sure, but again, I'm talking about a scenario where they're publishing a smaller dev's work, because of a resurgence in interest in the genre, or an internal dev is doing a shmup as a passion project. Assuming the wrong set of hands don't get involved in that kind of thing, it could still be a great core experience.

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
I don't think an STG with unlocks is necessarily impossible to implement; there are several good examples out there in the form of stuff like the unlock system in Judgement Silversword and Eschatos, or the systems found in Ginga Force and Danmaku Unlimited 3. The key is that you can't have have upwards, linear progression. Any unlocks have to be sideways, in the sense that it's not necessarily that you're unlocking stronger stuff to use, but rather you unlock different, more varied equipment options or shot types to use. Any of the base equipment should be capable of tackling the game for instance, with newer stuff being perhaps more exotic weapons mechanically, but not necessarily much stronger.


Similarly, you can unlock a different ship to use in Devil Engine, which changes up the way you have to approach the game, making it a different experience than the initial campaign. It becomes a value add, rather than grinding for better stuff.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:28 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:23 am 



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I think the genre is essentially dead. That recent trend of making retro style shmups with pixelated graphics (some of which I like but that's besides the point) clearly shows that it's a genre that belongs to the past. I think that retro style is done purely out of nostalgia of a bygone era. Hell, shmups were already losing their appeal in the mid 90s with the rise of fighting games and beat-em-ups.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:10 am 


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That's like saying traditional roguelikes are essentially dead because they're using the "retro style" of ASCII. It doesn't make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:43 am 


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yeah, i don't really think i agree that indies making STGs means that the genre is dead. if anything, indies are the people keeping most genres alive in an age where everything has to be an open-world epic and/or an FPS.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:51 am 


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:41 am 


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Queen Charlene wrote:
Special World wrote:
I can go to a punk show every week if i want to. They're inexpensive and fun, and you can get drinks at normal bar prices--unlike a Taylor Swift or Kenny Chesney concert. With shmups, I have a list of releases i look forward to playing, and a dedicated community who is responsive to questions and deeply engaged with their fandom. Imo there's a lot of "if it's not top of mind it's irrelevant" in almost every sector of the world today. It's marketing, imo.


hard agree. i'm also in agreement that the "punk" comparison is very apt. self-publishing via websites like itch.io is also becoming more and more popular in STGs (just like punk and bandcamp), and i think the relative nicheness of the community sometimes helps games spread further than they would if they were trying to be some sort of huge, thriving genre, stripping its personality and abrasiveness away for something sterile and easily digestible, and making games that appeal to nobody.

i've noticed, in my short time participating in the community, that once a new STG or news on an STG drops, the word + discussion seems to spread pretty quickly, even if there'll always be those dedicated Black Flag fans who only listen to Black Flag and think all other punk bands are shit or fake punk. (pretend i inserted some sort of god tier Black Label pun here.) maybe it's not spreading to 350,000 people, sure, but i think trying to chase the big numbers is a losing game.


Olympia?! Let’s get a shmupmeet going in PNW! I wonder how many others of us there are.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:53 am 


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:49 am 



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What was the last AAA title in the shmups genre as we know it?

Super Aleste?
Philosoma?


I would assume the shmup went out of fashion with the 32bit era arrival. Polygons killed the shmups.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:43 am 


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The "AAA" concept wasn't a thing until well after shmups became niche.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:54 am 


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neorichieb1971 wrote:
What was the last AAA title in the shmups genre as we know it?

Super Aleste?
Philosoma?


I would assume the shmup went out of fashion with the 32bit era arrival. Polygons killed the shmups.


Gradius V, R-Type Final and Ikaruga. Gradius V in particular. That was basically the peak of the genre as far as production values go, and it's a game that appeals to both newcomers and experts alike.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:30 am 



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FRO wrote:
That's a glaring example, sure, but think about what Capcom did with Psikyo, publishing Gunbird 2, working with Takumi to publish Giga Wing and Mars Matrix, or working with Cave to publish Progear. That's more along the lines of what I'm thinking of. G.Rev and Treasure worked with Konami on Gradius V, and it's a great game. Those are the kinds of partnerships I'm thinking of.


This is a really reasonable thing to want from the genre, but I have to ask: why actively want partnerships like these? How would they be different/better than shmups released independently or via small publishers? Maybe I'm unaware of some evidence in support of this, but I've never heard anyone ascribe, say, Gunbird 2's greatness to Capcom, or claim that Cave would have been unable to make a game as good as Progear if not for Capcom's assistance (unless the CPS-2 is special somehow..?). Gradius V is more complicated as the series is Konami's baby to begin with, and focusing on that would necessarily lead to the question of "old vs new franchises," which is an altogether different debate.

But yeah: exactly what do you think AAA publishers could contribute to games that would inevitably be developed by smaller teams anyway? This isn't me being combative; apologies in advance if I come across as such. I am genuinely interested.

Also, it's not the same as acting as a primary publisher, but Capcom themselves partnered with Nyu Media on the localization of a couple of very doujin games: eXceed 2nd and 3rd, Ether Vapor, and Satazius(!). This was as recently as in 2012. Don't really know the extent of Capcom's contributions (other than that they helped Nyu Media publish these games outside of Japan), but none of those games feel like they were touched by AAA game companies (except maybe Ether Vapor, but I'd argue that it certainly does not feel like a "influenced by AAA in 2012" game). Which is neither a good thing nor a bad thing here, imo.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:01 am 


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Quote:
I would assume the shmup went out of fashion with the 32bit era arrival. Polygons killed the shmups.


Not polygons. But shift to cinematic/story-heavy/long & exploration genres that became the king in late PS1 era among gaming mainstream, reducing arcade-style gaming in minds of gamers. (Yeah, Sega's last two consoles were kind of arcade bastions of last defense in that point).

p.s.
btw, "in grand scheme of things" fighting games ARE niche, it's just shmups are superniche actually, lol. And ironically fighting is alive only due to about 5 companies who mostly make sequels to long running series and that's just it.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:59 am 


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It's the 16 bit era that they started to decline imo. Even Miyamoto was saying that shmups were going to decline back during the development of Star Fox.

Once a save feature became the norm, and games as a result started becoming long and content packed enough to justify saving, it was pretty much over for the mass appeal of arcade culture designed games.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:41 pm 


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Quote:
It's the 16 bit era that they started to decline imo


:roll:

i'm sure for plenty people best shmups only started appearing during 16 bit gen, if not later

unless you are some hardcore oldschooler who despise anything released past 1988 lol
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:14 pm 


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qmish wrote:
Quote:
It's the 16 bit era that they started to decline imo


:roll:

i'm sure for plenty people best shmups only started appearing during 16 bit gen, if not later

unless you are some hardcore oldschooler who despise anything released past 1988 lol


I meant their overall popularity and sales started to decline, not the quality of the games themselves.

You actually see people saying this throughout early 90's gamedev interviews. Miyamoto is saying shmups are drying up in popularity, the Compile guys are commenting on it, it was a definite growing sentiment even at that early point.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:20 pm 


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Ah, i see.

Btw when i check my country's top popular of megadrive games, shmups are not even in top-50... while hard corps or batman adventures in top-10 always
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:51 pm 


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floralcateyes wrote:
FRO wrote:
That's a glaring example, sure, but think about what Capcom did with Psikyo, publishing Gunbird 2, working with Takumi to publish Giga Wing and Mars Matrix, or working with Cave to publish Progear. That's more along the lines of what I'm thinking of. G.Rev and Treasure worked with Konami on Gradius V, and it's a great game. Those are the kinds of partnerships I'm thinking of.


This is a really reasonable thing to want from the genre, but I have to ask: why actively want partnerships like these? How would they be different/better than shmups released independently or via small publishers? Maybe I'm unaware of some evidence in support of this, but I've never heard anyone ascribe, say, Gunbird 2's greatness to Capcom, or claim that Cave would have been unable to make a game as good as Progear if not for Capcom's assistance (unless the CPS-2 is special somehow..?). Gradius V is more complicated as the series is Konami's baby to begin with, and focusing on that would necessarily lead to the question of "old vs new franchises," which is an altogether different debate.

But yeah: exactly what do you think AAA publishers could contribute to games that would inevitably be developed by smaller teams anyway? This isn't me being combative; apologies in advance if I come across as such. I am genuinely interested.

Also, it's not the same as acting as a primary publisher, but Capcom themselves partnered with Nyu Media on the localization of a couple of very doujin games: eXceed 2nd and 3rd, Ether Vapor, and Satazius(!). This was as recently as in 2012. Don't really know the extent of Capcom's contributions (other than that they helped Nyu Media publish these games outside of Japan), but none of those games feel like they were touched by AAA game companies (except maybe Ether Vapor, but I'd argue that it certainly does not feel like a "influenced by AAA in 2012" game). Which is neither a good thing nor a bad thing here, imo.


The biggest thing here is name recognition. The internet means that it's easier than ever for doujin and indie devs to get their name out there, and get eyeballs on their game, by posting screenshots, GIFs, clips, trailers, etc. and promoting it all day long across various social media. But when the average consumer walks into the store, especially someone my age, who grew up playing Konami, Capcom, <insert long time publisher here> games, that name recognition still carries weight. If I was a more casual fan of the genre, back in the day, and saw a new game that reminded me of Gradius, R-Type, UN Squadron, 1943, etc. and saw a new game, and it had that name on it, I might be more inclined to buy it. I was unaware that Capcom assisted Nyu Media in publishing those games, but that's what I'm talking about - getting stuff like that out of Japan, or out of small circles, and into a wider audience. You can bet that getting those games on Steam probably gave them a lot more exposure, even with the "Steam barf" syndrome that's gone on lately, where there are so many games, you can barely keep up. That's my main point here: exposure. Name recognition can go a long way to helping achieve that.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:12 pm 


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Yeah, anecdotal evidence sure, but I ALSO never noticed a ton of shmups amongst my friends in the 16-bit era. My family had none, my one friend had EDF and the other had Thunder Spirits later on. That was kinda how it was back then--you had what you had.

But more interestingly, none of my Genesis friends EVER mentioned a shmup. Even kids who grew up with Sega TV. Sonic, Flicky, Kid Chameleon, Phantasy Star, Shining Force, Toejam and Early, you name it--I never heard of Truxton or Thunder Force or Musha til MUCH later.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm 


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Olympia?! Let’s get a shmupmeet going in PNW! I wonder how many others of us there are.
YOOOOO I'M DOWN AS HELL :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:39 pm 



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Austin wrote:
neorichieb1971 wrote:
What was the last AAA title in the shmups genre as we know it?

Super Aleste?
Philosoma?


I would assume the shmup went out of fashion with the 32bit era arrival. Polygons killed the shmups.


Gradius V, R-Type Final and Ikaruga. Gradius V in particular. That was basically the peak of the genre as far as production values go.


Nah, Cave released quite a few masterpieces well after Gradius V.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:03 pm 


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Despite the hero worship of Cave here, they aren't quite AAA in the way Konami is/was.


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:09 pm 


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R-Type Delta surely feels "wow" for ps1, blows away mind completely when you first play it even nowodays :)
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:27 pm 



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blossom wrote:
Despite the hero worship of Cave here, they aren't quite AAA in the way Konami is/was.



How so?


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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:35 pm 


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Gradius V and Ikaruga (and Under Defeat as well) sure are stunners. But I think it's more than "production value." I think it's 1) detailed 3D graphics and 2) epic feel. And you can lose either of those in a big budget game. But let's look at some games since then:

- Eschatos: Quite easily the most cinematic STG imo. And despite it being "ugly" to these forums, I was constantly surprised by people in my dorm saying "wow! This looks way better than your other games!"
- Resogun: In terms of graphics, this trumps Gradius V any day. But it's not cinematic. I don't love this game, but it seems pretty AAA to me. It just isn't "Epic."
- Rolling Gunner: Again, a very handsome game, though i've not yet played it. But a little lacking in style.
- Mecha Ritz: For me this sits nicely against any Saturn era game. A visual and aural stunner, though not "high end."
- Ginga Force: Less epic than Eschatos, but really fleshed out in a way most shooters aren't. This one is pretty high concept imo. It might look kiddie next to Gradius V, but in many ways it is a more robust, "AAA-worthy" title.
- Sine Mora: This is like, the epitome of what people mean by AAA-worthy shmup. But ultimately, none of that stops it from being mediocre.

For me, these games and others hold up really well next to the legendary Ikaruga and Gradius V. I just think there's a little ridiculous (dare i say casual?) bolstering of games with 3D graphics, and a "serious" tone. I for one am not hugely in favor of serious games--i find them tedious. Treasure and G.Rev did quite well for themselves, but I think that's because they're great devs and not because they had a AAA-worthy budget by any stretch. They had a license and the skill to work it. Otherwise, you just get a Sine Mora. And in a small way, Gradius V is held back by that--get that cutscene put of my FACE, man! In the end, that's a trifle, though.
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Last edited by Special World on Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:36 pm 


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el_rika wrote:
blossom wrote:
Despite the hero worship of Cave here, they aren't quite AAA in the way Konami is/was.



How so?
well, for one thing, Cave has never self-published their own games (to my knowledge). they've also definitely never made as much money, own as many self-created IPs, nor are they even a fraction as influential as Konami are (for the aforementioned reasons). i can't think of a single game that Cave published completely solo; Atlus, AMI, Arika, Rising Star, Degica... all of these publishers were involved in the actual act of distributing their titles, not Cave themselves.

Cave is one of the most influential STG developers of all time, but compared to someone like Konami or Capcom, they're basically not even a blip on the radar.
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 Post subject: Re: For a dead genre, there sure are a lot of shmups being m
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:37 pm 


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el_rika wrote:
blossom wrote:
Despite the hero worship of Cave here, they aren't quite AAA in the way Konami is/was.



How so?

Becaue they have 2D graphics, which have been completely delegitimized in popular gaming. See, me playing Deathsmiles: "It looks like a Sega Saturn game!"

3D graphics don't make a game good, but to mainstream players they are required to even be considered.
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