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 Post subject: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:43 pm 



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 149
https://youtu.be/BbIwYkiBmDY

While not admired to the level that Progear is, I've always been a fan of both of these games. I played Mars Matrix a few times in arcades in the early 2000's, but up until I acquired my CPS 2 stuff, Dreamcast was where I played both these games a ton (still have my copies)

I'd say I like Mars Matrix a bit more. I definite enjoy the sci-fi theme and pre-rendered visuals. At some point I'd love to get it in a cab so I could improve my gameplay ; having to set up my entire supergun and break it down every time I want to play is proving to be a real pain in the ass.

But I'm curious who prefers what game? Gigawing is definitely fun but I don't mesh with it in the same way I do Mars Matrix

Hope everyone has a good thanksgiving this week btw! Or at least my fellow US folk!


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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:41 pm 


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Joined: 24 Jul 2009
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I'm a big fan of Gigawing. But I haven't played an awful lot of Mars Matrix I have to admit.

Haven't 1CCd it yet but have got to the TLB.. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:00 pm 


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Joined: 09 Feb 2005
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Location: Berkeley, CA
My cab only displays 31 khz which means I'm now playing a ton of Dreamcast (with the Brooks retro PCB for controls). It's been a lot of fun. The killer selection of arcade games on DC makes up for the fact that I can't play my 15 khz boards.

I have to say I much prefer Mars Matrix to Giga Wing. The enemy placement and presentation in MM just seems tighter overall. All I know is that MM holds my attention much better than GW and GW 2.

Speaking of Giga Wing on Dreamcast, man did they ever fuck up this port! The backgrounds have this weird shimmering effect. I'd assume it's due to bad (or non-existent) interpolation but it's very distracting. At least the game play fells pretty good but there's just so many other great DC shooters so I never end up playing this for more than one credit before switching to Cannon Spike, Zero Gunner 2, or Border Down.


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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:09 pm 


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Location: BRA
the Gigawings were a preamble
Mars Matrix is Takumi's apex

MM is actually my favorite danmaku
I still have wet dreams about Takumi rising out of the ashes like a Phoenix and announcing Mars Matrix 2
:mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:32 am 


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Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Location: Southern Ontario
I vastly prefer Giga Wing and Night Raid over Mars Matrix. The central suction mechanic in MM doesn't feel as fun to use or as viscerally satisfying as the reflect in GW is or the grapple in NR is. Giga Wing is more approachable to beginners in general as it starts a lot more tame and difficulty goes up in a more measured way whereas MM is far more brutal from the get-go, and you learn very quickly in MM that draining the entire bar is often a terrible idea compared to using the suction in short spurts for the invulnerability.

GW and NR also have actual bombs in addition to their central mechanic. You can experiment with unorthodox strategies more and bomb away if it doesn't work and you get caught off-guard by something, whereas in MM the suction is pretty much all-or-nothing and using it leaves you with no backup measure if you used it at a bad time or accidentally used more meter than intended. Night Raid actually feels a lot like Mars Matrix in its enemy pacing but with different mechanics and scoring, and a bit more leeway in being able to bomb out of danger.
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:53 pm 



Joined: 28 Nov 2019
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Hey guys. I’m a new player still learning the genre but I agree that Mars Matrix And Giga Wing are some of the best shmups I’ve played. Very underrated games. I love the reflect mechanic and wish more games used it.


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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:22 am 


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Joined: 11 Nov 2019
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Location: Olympia, WA, USA
i really like both games, but i have more history growing up with Giga Wing. i actually just discovered Mars Matrix this year and it blew my mind, but yeah, MM is definitely pretty difficult right from the start, Giga Wing is a lot more tame by comparison. i LOVE the sword/absorption mechanic in MM, and i'm a huge fan of the music too, but i really like the art in Giga Wing a lot more.
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:48 pm 



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 149
Queen Charlene wrote:
i really like both games, but i have more history growing up with Giga Wing. i actually just discovered Mars Matrix this year and it blew my mind, but yeah, MM is definitely pretty difficult right from the start, Giga Wing is a lot more tame by comparison. i LOVE the sword/absorption mechanic in MM, and i'm a huge fan of the music too, but i really like the art in Giga Wing a lot more.


I still need to play more Dimahoo too. Weird, like you with MM, sometimes you never play these games till years later


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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:58 am 


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Joined: 29 Aug 2010
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Loved Mars Matrix back when it came out on Dreamcast, but I'm struggling to get back into it these days. I think a part of it is the learning curve. If you're with it, it's super satisfying, but if you're not, it's constantly kicking you in the balls. Also, is it just me or does the Dreamcast version have significant input lag? After coming off a lot of shooters on 360 and doing a lot of MAME, it feels unresponsive in comparison.

I was hooked on Giga Wing when it came out and have been since. It's much easier to learn and as it's been mentioned, it has a much smoother difficulty curve (it's still quite a challenge on that final stage). It's one of those shooters where I don't have to practice it to get back in the groove with it. I can hop right in and have a decent, satisfying run without much effort.

Giga Wing 2 is fantastic as well, but I find myself veering more towards the original. It's easier to see what's going on with those colorful 2D visuals. Though making mountains of medals appear regularly in Part 2 is supremely satisfying.

I'd like to nab another copy of GW Generations on PS2, but it seems prices have gone up on it ($100+? No thanks, especially when it used to be a $30 game all day long not too long ago). It wasn't super polished but was at least fun for what it was.
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:16 pm 


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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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Location: Germany, Berlin
MM has a very strong *concept* - it feels hard and mean and is very much so a SciFi Shmup.
I find that when I play it that it's more like solving a puzzle and I feel that the design and placement is good.
The Canon feels very heavy and nasty and this is how heavies should feel - it's satisfying to unleash it and dish out the punishment.
Balance of play feels good to me too.
The gold is one of my favourite types of point objects to be found across the Shmups that I've played ; I like the animation very much though I don't find the accessing of it the next size of Gold along the chain to be as satisfying as in Battle garegga it has to be said.

GW2 simply pisses me off - I do not like this this obsession with sickly japanese anime culture and I don't need to hear vocalisations each time a bomb is pressed - it's childish to me.
The graphics and play system are nothing special and the concept isn't strongly defined enough that I can tell the difference between both GW Shmups and pretty much any other lame Shmup. I do not like the way that they decided to have pre-rendered sprite graphics - it hasn't aged all too well and looks naff and has been done many times over a lot better. - it looks cheap I feel.
Bullet Patterns are weak too: I'm falling asleep and they simply aren't much of a challenge - feels like a lame Euro-Shmup in that sense or that it's not sufficiently 'produced' and ready.

Difficulty wise:

MM: tends to be the level that I'm looking for or perhaps I like a Shmup to be a bit higher - I like a challenge.
GW2: too easy but I can understand that it's 'nicer' to people just getting into Shmups.
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:21 pm 


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Giga Wing 2 doesn't have any prerendered 3D sprites. It's all actual 3D models for the enemies and player as far as I know, with 2D sprites for the shots and game interface. I can understand if it's not to your taste though, it's not the prettiest 3D graphics out there for sure. Night Raid's not what you'd call gorgeous either for that matter.

Giga Wing's sprites and background art all look too crisp to be prerendered 3D models converted to sprites. I don't think there's any prerendered 3D in there aside from possibly the medallion itself when it appears at Stage 7.

Mars Matrix definitely appears to make use of prerendered 3D to sprites for a few of its enemies and some of the stage backgrounds. It looks like a good game with a less colourful, but very distinct art style.
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:39 pm 


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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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Location: Germany, Berlin
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Giga Wing 2 doesn't have any prerendered 3D sprites. It's all actual 3D models for the enemies and player as far as I know, with 2D sprites for the shots and game interface. I can understand if it's not to your taste though, it's not the prettiest 3D graphics out there for sure. Night Raid's not what you'd call gorgeous either for that matter.

Giga Wing's sprites and background art all look too crisp to be prerendered 3D models converted to sprites. I don't think there's any prerendered 3D in there aside from possibly the medallion itself when it appears at Stage 7.

Mars Matrix definitely appears to make use of prerendered 3D to sprites for a few of its enemies and some of the stage backgrounds. It looks like a good game with a less colourful, but very distinct art style.

Is it really not pre-rendered? It looks cheap to me. We know that the DC can do a lot better.

Well, to me, they just don't 'work' and are rather generic and I expect more in terms of overall concept - garegga, DDP, MM, etc. manage this I feel.

The visuals aside though: both GW Shmups are just not challenging enough to me and they don't impress me. I find that even the ship designs are just 'standard'. They kind of tried something at least with the ship designs in MM and it's kind of interesting to see the ships change as you progress.

MM is a harder game and more of a challenge. I do own GW and have played GW2 eons ago but I only really play MM these days on the DC - pretty much the main game I play on it now.
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:50 pm 


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Quote:
Is it really not pre-rendered? It looks cheap to me. We know that the DC can do a lot better.


Uh, CPS-2 hardware (GW, MM) is different from Sega Dreamcast hardware. The roughly arcade equivalent of Sega Dreamcast hardware was the Sega Naomi (which GW2 runs on). There literally isn't a single 3D game on the CPS-2 as it was not designed for 3D and was purely built around playing sprite-based games. Though what it seems you're complaining about in Giga Wing is that you're not fond of the art style, it has nothing to do with the capabilities of either the CPS-2 or Dreamcast as they're both very graphically capable systems in their own right (anyone who complains they don't like the sprite work in Alien Vs Predator or Battle Circuit for instance can rightly be assumed to be bonkers).
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 Post subject: Re: Mars Matrix and Gigawing on the CPS 2
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:42 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Quote:
Is it really not pre-rendered? It looks cheap to me. We know that the DC can do a lot better.


Uh, CPS-2 hardware (GW, MM) is different from Sega Dreamcast hardware. The roughly arcade equivalent of Sega Dreamcast hardware was the Sega Naomi (which GW2 runs on). There literally isn't a single 3D game on the CPS-2 as it was not designed for 3D and was purely built around playing sprite-based games. Though what it seems you're complaining about in Giga Wing is that you're not fond of the art style, it has nothing to do with the capabilities of either the CPS-2 or Dreamcast as they're both very graphically capable systems in their own right (anyone who complains they don't like the sprite work in Alien Vs Predator or Battle Circuit for instance can rightly be assumed to be bonkers).

I do indeed know the CPS2 and Naomi. The Naomi is high-end in comparison. As I understand it: the Naomi is cart based over the DC's drive but it's the same spec wise.

But, no - specs are not the root of the matter for me. GW: it's lacking for me in the art - yes, but it's just weak challenge wise, the way that the patterns of enemies play out, but yes - I don't like the lack of any real venture and commitment to doing something interesting and it just looks derivative and tired to me. The ships being generic and boring.

I don't judge a Shmup based on the specs of its platform - it's easy to make a poor Shmup on a well spec'd platform, but it's always of value when a developer can create a decent Shmup regardless of the platform, and similar arguments can be made for sound capabilities too. Essentially: a good Shmup ages well and is still interesting to play years after release I feel.
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