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 Post subject: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:03 pm 


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Hey there, maybe this is the wrong place for this as Star Fox isn't a typical shmup, but it is a scrolling shooter, so I figured I'd ask.

I was curious if anyone knows if this game has ever been beaten (any of the routes) legit with no damage taken, max score and 100%. I've looked all over and all I can seem to find are TAS runs or ones that use save states in-between the stages. Obviously Star Fox is an early 3D game and is janky with a max 15FPS frame rate (often far less), so attempting this isn't ideal. But I've been practicing (route 1) for about 4 months now on real hardware and I'm getting really close. Best I've done is a 3 hit run with 100%. Pretty sure I will be able to pull it off in the not too distance future so I was just wondering if anyone knew of someone else who had done it on real hardware legit.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:00 pm 


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Star Fox is a Rail Shooter, not a scrolling shooter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_%27em_up

Quote:
Rail shooters limit the player to moving around the screen while the game follows a specific route;[16] these games often feature an "into the screen" viewpoint, with which the action is seen from behind the player character, and moves "into the screen", while the player retains control over dodging.[6][17] Examples include Space Harrier (1985), Captain Skyhawk (1990), Starblade (1991), Star Wars: Rebel Assault (1993), Panzer Dragoon (1995), Star Fox 64 (1997), and Sin and Punishment (2000). Light-Gun games that are "on-rails" are not in the shoot-em-up category but the FPS category,[18] and the term has also been applied to scripted events in first-person shooters such as Call of Duty.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:45 am 


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opt2not wrote:
Star Fox is a Rail Shooter, not a scrolling shooter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_%27em_up

Quote:
Rail shooters limit the player to moving around the screen while the game follows a specific route;[16] these games often feature an "into the screen" viewpoint, with which the action is seen from behind the player character, and moves "into the screen", while the player retains control over dodging.[6][17] Examples include Space Harrier (1985), Captain Skyhawk (1990), Starblade (1991), Star Wars: Rebel Assault (1993), Panzer Dragoon (1995), Star Fox 64 (1997), and Sin and Punishment (2000). Light-Gun games that are "on-rails" are not in the shoot-em-up category but the FPS category,[18] and the term has also been applied to scripted events in first-person shooters such as Call of Duty.


Thanks for reminding me why I don't post here much anymore :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:53 am 


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Regardless of the sub-genre of "shooter" it falls under, a no damage run of even the first route would be impressive. I'd like to see that.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:23 am 


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@opt2not I'll respond to your quote with another quote, this time from the shmups forum's rules:

Quote:
Keep posts to the appropriate topic areas. We will never have a concrete definition of a shmup, so make a sensible judgement.


I think Star Fox is much more of a shmup than, let's say, Tekken or Crash Bandicoot. These kinds of strict definitions, the need for games to follow Cave's template or else they're not going to have a chance in the spotlight, I'd guess that kind of attitude is partly why shmups are now "dead" outside of its niche. I don't often see other genres have this kind of "not a true entry in the genre" outside of roguelikes. Have you ever seen or heard the phrase "not a true platformer" or "not a true racing game"?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:23 am 


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Star Fox is a 3D shmup, not a rail shooter. House of the Dead is a rail shooter.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:59 am 


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MathU wrote:
Star Fox is a 3D shmup, not a rail shooter. House of the Dead is a rail shooter.


They are both forms of rail shooters.

blossom wrote:
Have you ever seen or heard the phrase "not a true platformer" or "not a true racing game"?


I mean, sort of, yes. For instance, there's Sonic the Hedgehog, and then there's Ys III. Despite them sharing similar elements (side scrolling, running, jumping, etc), I would classify the later as an action-RPG that happens to be a side scroller (thus, "not a true platformer"). That said, there's always going to be grey area and some games will lean more heavily in one direction or another.

Getting nit-picky with where certain games fall can get a little tedious to read about on message boards like this. However, knowing some key differences between genres and sub-genres of games can be useful at certain moments (this thread isn't really one of them).
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:03 pm 


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Good luck Aggro! I loved Star Fox to death as a kid, but I find it nearly unplayable today. There's a certain rhythm to moving about in that framerate that I just can't get into anymore.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:49 pm 


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Go Aggro!
Star Fox is a rail shooter, it is awesome, and you are doing God's work. A no hit run would be really, really impressive.

Good Luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:07 pm 


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Thanks everyone! I really appreciate the kind words. I've been practicing for months and I feel like I am getting pretty close. I don't plan on giving up so I'll get it eventually. But the fact that apparently no one has done it before legit gives me a lot of motivation, as well as the kind words I've seen here. So thank you for that.

As for whether the game is a rail shooter, scrolling shooter or whatever, I don't really care. It falls into the shmup category regardless IMO so that's why I brought it up here. I think the quote that blossom brought up was appropriate, which is that there isn't a concrete definition of a shmup and to use your judgement. Which is what I did here.

At any rate, I will say this about Star Fox. It is quite a challenge to try and get a no damage run. The frame rate being the main problem of course as it dips below 15fps quite often. Although there are also plenty of RNG elements as well that make the game even more unpredictable. The main obstacles for me are the Asteroid Field and the Space Armada (due to an excess of junk on the screen). As well as several later bosses that can be extremely unpredictable with their placement and how much they fire at you. The Space Armada in particular has some really hairy sequences with lots of bullets and enemies on screen which in turn drop the frame rate and make your controller actions less responsive.

One of my strategies is to barrel roll my ship as much as possible as bullets will bounce off your ship if it is in the roll maneuver. However, if you miss time your roll you get hit, and when the frame rate drops it is harder to roll. So this strategy doesn't always work as well as I'd like. But it is fun to intentionally reflect bullets off your ship. I've gotten to the point where I can reflect most bullets if I need to.

Anyway, thanks for the support! I'll post my progress as I continue on this insane adventure... :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:35 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:22 pm 


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Aggro Sky wrote:
One of my strategies is to barrel roll my ship as much as possible as bullets will bounce off your ship if it is in the roll maneuver. However, if you miss time your roll you get hit, and when the frame rate drops it is harder to roll. So this strategy doesn't always work as well as I'd like. But it is fun to intentionally reflect bullets off your ship. I've gotten to the point where I can reflect most bullets if I need to.

how interesting, I never knew about that :shock:

in any case, good luck with your enterprise, I'll definitely give it a look when it's done!
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:14 pm 



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Good luck aggro a no hit run would be super impressive!but yes star fox is a rail shooter[WINKING FACE]a totally awsome one too!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:15 pm 


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Aggro Sky wrote:
Thanks for reminding me why I don't post here much anymore :roll:

Sorry you feel that way. I was just pointing out a misnomer.

Aggro Sky wrote:
I think the quote that blossom brought up was appropriate, which is that there isn't a concrete definition of a shmup and to use your judgement. Which is what I did here.

I did use my judgement, and I determined that it was appropriate to state the misnomer since I wasn't disputing whether this was a shmup or not.
We all know Star Fox is a shmup. But saying it's a scrolling shmup can be said for hypothetically 90% of all shmups.

Also, that definition rule was created in regards to the topic of games like Cuphead, whether they should be included in the shmups category.
I was disputing "scrolling shmup" as being a vast and vague description of this game and that rail shooter is a much more accurate label.

But feelings were hurt, so I do apologize for that, and hope that it doesn't affect your willingness to contribute to this forum. We're all passionate about games here, and sometimes text can be construed with more harshness than intended. I wasn't attempting malice, just a correction in a label.

Good luck in your run. I'm a fan of this game, and try to play from time to time, but I'm nowhere near the level of getting a no-hit run. I'd be interested in how you do.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:09 am 


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opt2not wrote:
Aggro Sky wrote:
Thanks for reminding me why I don't post here much anymore :roll:

Sorry you feel that way. I was just pointing out a misnomer.

Aggro Sky wrote:
I think the quote that blossom brought up was appropriate, which is that there isn't a concrete definition of a shmup and to use your judgement. Which is what I did here.

I did use my judgement, and I determined that it was appropriate to state the misnomer since I wasn't disputing whether this was a shmup or not.
We all know Star Fox is a shmup. But saying it's a scrolling shmup can be said for hypothetically 90% of all shmups.

Also, that definition rule was created in regards to the topic of games like Cuphead, whether they should be included in the shmups category.
I was disputing "scrolling shmup" as being a vast and vague description of this game and that rail shooter is a much more accurate label.

But feelings were hurt, so I do apologize for that, and hope that it doesn't affect your willingness to contribute to this forum. We're all passionate about games here, and sometimes text can be construed with more harshness than intended. I wasn't attempting malice, just a correction in a label.

Good luck in your run. I'm a fan of this game, and try to play from time to time, but I'm nowhere near the level of getting a no-hit run. I'd be interested in how you do.


Thanks man, I really appreciate that. It means a lot (and I'm not being snarky, I promise). I've just had some other bad experiences in this forum over the years with people jumping on me for no apparent reason. I took offense because it seemed like you just came in here to correct me and add nothing to the conversation, I took it as snark. And for that I too apologize. Thanks for the encouragement!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:14 am 



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I was just thinking a few weeks back what happened to you. Watched a bunch of your videos. I too share the 16 bit love, especially for the Genesis.
A lot of games I think from this era just don't age. Hey, BTW good luck on Starfox.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:01 pm 


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Gamer707b wrote:
I was just thinking a few weeks back what happened to you. Watched a bunch of your videos. I too share the 16 bit love, especially for the Genesis.
A lot of games I think from this era just don't age. Hey, BTW good luck on Starfox.


Thanks! I've been around, life just prevents me from doing as many of these runs as I'd like. And this one is taking months of practice... But I think it'll be worth it in the end. I'm also doing a gaming related podcast now so that takes up a bit of time as well, but it's fun and I can do it consistently so why not.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:18 pm 


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Quote:
I've just had some other bad experiences in this forum over the years with people jumping on me for no apparent reason.


HERE? You are kidding!

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:33 pm 


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Aggro Sky wrote:
However, if you miss time your roll you get hit, and when the frame rate drops it is harder to roll. So this strategy doesn't always work as well as I'd like. But it is fun to intentionally reflect bullets off your ship. I've gotten to the point where I can reflect most bullets if I need to.


I really don't envy you; I was crazy into the N64 version of the game but the choppy framerate of the SNES game was always a big deterrent for me. Honestly the prospect of going through Star Fox doing a no damage clear sounds absolutely insanely difficult, even by shmupping standards, so kudos to you if you pull it off.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:52 am 


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First Stage, Corneria, one of the best OST of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvkkqxs8m0


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:12 am 



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Being that we're on the Star Fox topic, I really enjoy Star Fox Zero. Im in the minority, but I personally liked the controls. It was just a few games that used the Wii U gamepad fully. I'd love to see a expert playthrough on Zero.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 pm 


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Gamer707b wrote:
Being that we're on the Star Fox topic, I really enjoy Star Fox Zero. Im in the minority, but I personally liked the controls. It was just a few games that used the Wii U gamepad fully. I'd love to see a expert playthrough on Zero.


I have yet to play it, mainly for that reason. I just wanted a traditional Star Fox game without having to use wonky Wii-U pad controls. I wish they'd port it to Switch with regular controls and I'd try it out as I no longer have a Wii-U...


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 pm 


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Kobayashi wrote:
First Stage, Corneria, one of the best OST of all time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMvkkqxs8m0


Yup. The music in this game is some of the best of the 16-bit era and IMO the best on the SNES. It feels so cinematic and holds up great even today.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:06 pm 


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Got into this way, wayyy late in the day, and was stunned at it not only playing pretty well (I appreciate how arcadey its pacing is), but the genuinely thrilling/threatening atmosphere. Very Starblade at times. Panzer Dragoon (Saturn)'s a similar case, both of 'em have extremely accomplished immediate sequels but they're worth seeking out provided you're not totally (and quite understandably!) turned off by the primordial 3D.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:59 am 


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Quote:
Panzer Dragoon (Saturn)'s a similar case


Speaking of which, the Panzer Dragoon Switch port is getting a physical release


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:35 pm 


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BIL wrote:
Got into this way, wayyy late in the day, and was stunned at it not only playing pretty well (I appreciate how arcadey its pacing is), but the genuinely thrilling/threatening atmosphere. Very Starblade at times. Panzer Dragoon (Saturn)'s a similar case, both of 'em have extremely accomplished immediate sequels but they're worth seeking out provided you're not totally (and quite understandably!) turned off by the primordial 3D.


This is great to hear! I don't know many people who discovered this game late and actually enjoyed it. Usually they are too spoiled by high frame rates in modern games to be able to handle a 15fps 3D shooter. But yeah, I agree 100%. It is a really thrilling and epic game to play through. The score helps with that a lot as it is probably the best on the SNES.

As for me, I've had a busy week but I had half a day off today so I'm going to go for it again. I'm really close to pulling it off. Skill and practice wise, I'm there. I just need to make it happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:06 am 


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Normally low framerates bug me, but Star Fox still manages to control very smooth and so I never feel like I am fighting with the controls. Typically low framerates wreck controls, but not here. The game still plays great.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:57 pm 


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Aggro Sky wrote:
Gamer707b wrote:
Being that we're on the Star Fox topic, I really enjoy Star Fox Zero. Im in the minority, but I personally liked the controls. It was just a few games that used the Wii U gamepad fully. I'd love to see a expert playthrough on Zero.


I have yet to play it, mainly for that reason. I just wanted a traditional Star Fox game without having to use wonky Wii-U pad controls. I wish they'd port it to Switch with regular controls and I'd try it out as I no longer have a Wii-U...


If you get the chance, I'd still encourage you to try it. It's a little weird at first, but once you get a feel for it, the aiming controls with the Wii U pad are very intuitive, and work well. Ask Mark_MSX about it. I've never been a huge Star Fox fan, but after buying and playing through SFZ, I am definitely more on board with the series. Great game.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:32 am 


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FRO wrote:
Aggro Sky wrote:
Gamer707b wrote:
Being that we're on the Star Fox topic, I really enjoy Star Fox Zero. Im in the minority, but I personally liked the controls. It was just a few games that used the Wii U gamepad fully. I'd love to see a expert playthrough on Zero.


I have yet to play it, mainly for that reason. I just wanted a traditional Star Fox game without having to use wonky Wii-U pad controls. I wish they'd port it to Switch with regular controls and I'd try it out as I no longer have a Wii-U...


If you get the chance, I'd still encourage you to try it. It's a little weird at first, but once you get a feel for it, the aiming controls with the Wii U pad are very intuitive, and work well. Ask Mark_MSX about it. I've never been a huge Star Fox fan, but after buying and playing through SFZ, I am definitely more on board with the series. Great game.


I mean, if it was in front of me I would try it for sure. Or if a friend had it or something. But I don't plan on ever owning a Wii-U again (famous last words LOL) so I don't know when I would get an opportunity unless like I said, Nintendo took the time to port it to the Switch. But considering how poorly it sold and how dependent it apparently is on that control scheme that may never happen sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Star Fox SNES
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:40 am 


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Just a little update, I got my first "1 Hit" run tonight. I tried again immediately after in the hopes that I could pull it off, but wasn't quite able to do it. Either way, 1 hit is by far the best I've done. The hit came on the first part of Venom in space, on the Phantron. Who's second phase is very unpredictable and extremely hard to maneuver through as dozens of bullets and missiles are heading your way constantly.

Anyway, rather than be demoralized I am PUMPED to get back to it. I'll try again tomorrow... :mrgreen:


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